Bavarian separatism

[Tomenable]

Apparently Bavarians don't want to be part of Germany:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_nationalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria_Party

And on another forum a Bavarian user - Toem - wrote:

http://historum.com/members/toem.html

As a Bavarian i can tell you that i feel much more closer to Austria than to Germany. After all Austrians are Bavarians too from a historic/ethnic perspective.

Therefore i'd much rather want to live in a Bavarian/Austrian national state.

In reality, there's no such thing as a German nation. Germany has always been a federation of different nations. Today's Germany is a product of Prussia's inner German imperialism. In 1871 no German nation was founded in reality, but a Greater Prussian empire.

Of course, due to revisionist history, most people aren't aware of this, and even if you'd ask people in Bavaria today, the majority wouldn't associate them with Austria anymore.

There's a good quote by a German historian. Too my shame i forgot his name, read it in a book once.

"Die Reichgsründung von 1871 war die Verhinderung einer Deutschen Nation durch Preußen."

"The foundation of the German Reich in 1871 was the prevention of a German nation by Prussia".

Today's "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" is a direct succesor and product of that Reichs foundation in 1871.

You should also realize that the revolutionists of 1848 did by no means represent the majority of the people in their decisions.
At least in Southern Germany the idea of a Prussian lead German State was not popular at all.

For example, Bavarian millitary troops, who at the time had given their oath not only to the Bavarian King but also to the Austrian emperror had the following short chant.

It is originally in Bavarian language, where it rhymes better, but I translated it to High german.

Es gibt nur eine Kaiserstadt,
es gibt nur ein Wien,
es gibt nur ein Räuberloch,
das ist Berlin.

In English that would be something like this.

There is only one city of the emperor,
there is only one Vienna,
there's only one bandit town,
that is Berlin.

Also keep in my mind that the war of 1866 was originally called the Prussian-German war. In the decleration of the general mobilization of the German Confederation, it was stated that due to an agressive act by Prussia against Germany, war actions had to be taken.

So as you see Prussia at that time was not even considered to be a real German state in the south and Austria/Vienna was considered to be the historical and cultural center of the German lands. Which indeed it is.

Who are the Bavarians - can they even be considered Germans?

 

[Tomenable]

AFAIK, Bavarians are a mix of mostly Celts and Slavs, with some Latin (Romance) too.

Would you agree that Bavarians and Austrians should be counted as Celtic nations?

 

[Sile]

AFAIK, Bavarians are a mix of mostly Celts and Slavs, with some Latin (Romance) too.

Would you agree that Bavarians and Austrians should be counted as Celtic nations?

Bavarians are a mix of Gaulish-celts and Illyrians , who became Germanic after the fall of the Roman empire. they populated modern south germany and Eastern austria.

Austria formed in 998AD from Ancient Bavarians ....................

so in the late bronze-age early iron-age the border between modern Austria and Italy was the border between Gaulish-celts and Venetic in a land called Noricum.
In western Austria these Gaulish celts - bordered against Rhaetic tribes

Slavs came and could be components of the first Austrians in middleages and not in ancient times

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

On the other hand, Old Prussian was a West-Baltic language.

 

[DuPidh]

Bavarians are a mix of Gaulish-celts and Illyrians , who became Germanic after the fall of the Roman empire. they populated modern south germany and Eastern austria.

Austria formed in 998AD from Ancient Bavarians ....................

so in the late bronze-age early iron-age the border between modern Austria and Italy was the border between Gaulish-celts and Venetic in a land called Noricum.
In western Austria these Gaulish celts - bordered against Rhaetic tribes

Slavs came and could be components of the first Austrians in middleages and not in ancient times

Yup! You are absolutely right! The Y-DNA composition of Germans conforms that! On the other hand Austria appears to have a large component of Slavs as well. When Austrian empire disintegrated they say in Vienna's phone book the Slavic names outnumbered the Germanic ones.

 

[Angela]

On the other hand, Old Prussian was a West-Baltic language.

Exactly, so another way of looking at it is are the Prussians "German"? I'm sure any German posters would know better than I, but it's been my impression that other "Germans" had doubts about that, particularly before World War II.

On another level, this is all silly. These national labels only arose in relatively recent times. The southern French are different from the northern French. In fact, until relatively recent times the people of the south referred to the northerners as "les francais". The Bretons are different from the people of Alsace. The differences in Italy are well known, but the Italian governments haven't squashed regional identities and languages in the same way that the French ones have done. Germanification was also a very important weapon of the German governments to create a "national" identity among people of slightly different genetic signatures.

I'd also be wary of statements like "The Bavarians don't want to be part of Germany." What kind of support in terms of percentages do these people get? Also, I don't know the details of their platform, but is it that they don't think they're "German", or they don't like the modern German state? Maybe they don't like all those easterners that had to be absorbed after the fall of the wall.

 

[Taranis]

Bavarian separatism, for the most part, is a joke. Although in all fairness, I have to say that the secessionist party of Bavaria, the Bayernpartei, received their best result since the 1960s during the most recent state election (2013), about 2.1%, which means they failed to get into the state's parliament.

Yes, non-Bavarian Germans love to make fun of the Bavarians, but I do not think that such a secession will ever happen. I would say it is on the same level of likelihood as the Confederate States of America rising from its ashes.

 

[sparkey]

Exactly, so another way of looking at it is are the Prussians "German"? I'm sure any German posters would know better than I, but it's been my impression that other "Germans" had doubts about that, particularly before World War II.

Ever had a chance to read through this thread?: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28371-How-Old-Prussian-were-the-East-Prussian-Germans

It's a very interesting question.

As for Bavarians, there are many, many more independence movements that are more likely to succeed throughout Europe and the rest of the world. But I don't expect Bavarians to lose their strong regional identity anytime soon.

 

[Sile]

Bavarian separatism, for the most part, is a joke. Although in all fairness, I have to say that the secessionist party of Bavaria, the Bayernpartei, received their best result since the 1960s during the most recent state election (2013), about 2.1%, which means they failed to get into the state's parliament.

Yes, non-Bavarian Germans love to make fun of the Bavarians, but I do not think that such a secession will ever happen. I would say it is on the same level of likelihood as the Confederate States of America rising from its ashes.

The Bavarians most likely will get more autonomy

 

[Angela]

Ever had a chance to read through this thread?: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28371-How-Old-Prussian-were-the-East-Prussian-Germans

It's a very interesting question.

As for Bavarians, there are many, many more independence movements that are more likely to succeed throughout Europe and the rest of the world. But I don't expect Bavarians to lose their strong regional identity anytime soon.

Thanks for the link. I wasn't very active then and so I didn't read it. Very interesting indeed.

 

[Tomenable]

Sparkey,

I'm not sure how many of these people listed below were included in your sample of East Prussian Germans from the Opening Post in that thread. But I found (as of August 2015) in total 82 people born before WW2 in East Prussia, from a few FTDNA Projects.

Those 82 kits included the following Y-DNA haplogroups:

R1a ------------- 36 (ca. 44%)
N1c ------------- 20 (ca. 24%)
R1b ------------- 12 (ca. 15%)
I1 ---------------- 6 (ca. 7%)
I2 ---------------- 4 (ca. 5%)
J, E, G, T -------- 1 each

Here is the list (not all of them were ethnic Germans, though):

Haplogroup R1a - 36:

kit 145992 Martin Kiehl born 1760 Stobbendorf (Stobiec) R-M458, R-M512
kit 165792 Johann Michael Sommerfeld b. 1750 Tujsk (Tiegenort) R-Z280, R-L365
kit N2864 Michael Flatau b. 1800 Stary Dzierzgoń (Alt Christburg) R-M417, R-M512
kit 275076 Georg Gottlieb Gutt b. 1729 Brodnica R-Z280, R-CTS3402
kit N43077 Panemune, East Prussia (now Sovetsk, Kaliningrad Oblast), R-Z280, R-Z92
kit 137403 Felyx Pruhs b. 1826 Bratjan R-M198, R-M417
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern b. Miłakowo (Liebstadt), d. 1717 Stockholm R-Z280, R-CTS456
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski b. 1824 Różnowo (Rosenau) R-Z280, R-M512
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, 1844-1921, Rogajny (Rogonnen), R-M458, L260
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek b. 1853 Szczytno (Ortelsburg) R-Z280, R-L365
kit 175710 George Glass 1810-1890 Babięty (Babanten) R-M417, R-Z280
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis b. 1822 Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg) R-Z280, R-CTS456
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke b. 1853 Kalwagi (Kaltwangen) R-M458, R-L260
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke b. 1883 Buddern (Budry) R-Z280, R-CTS1211
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth 1702-1778, Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo) R-Z280, R-Z92
kit 153224 Leopold Lau 1867-1931 Kompehnen (Niwy) R-Z283
kit 200664 Simon Netke b. 1686 Koenigsberg R-Z280, R-M512
kit 85285 Fred Lichtenstein b. 1870 Koenigsberg R-Z280, R-L366
kit E4464 Carl Labinsky b. 1840 Trempen (Novostroyevo) R-Z280, R-M417
kit 275090 Martin Kurschus b. Klaipeda (Memel) R1a-M512
kit E10941 Jablonski b. Koenigsberg R1a-M198
kit N46232 Christian Nikel b. Zabrowo (Sommerau) 1780 R1a-CTS10893
kit B14462 Karl August Rosenbaum b. 1830 Mamonovo (Heiligenbeil) R-M512, R-L1029
kit 316853 August Czeranna b. 1864 Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkowo) R-Z283
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki b. 1860 Sensburg (Mrągowo), R-Z280, R-CTS3402
kit E6115 Klaus b. 1935 Königsberg R-M512
kit 200664 Simon Netke 1686 -1735 Königsberg , R-Z283
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, b. 1750, Bartoszyce (Bartenstein), R-M198, R-M512
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha ca. 1800-1866, Sołdany (Soldahnen), R-L1280, R-Z280
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, 1769, Łapinóż (Lapienus), East Prussia, R-CTS456
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, b. 1830, Marienwerder (Kwidzyń), R-L1029
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, 1858-1941, Goczałki, R-Z283
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, Prioma, R-Z283
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, 1738-1826, Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Nidzica/Neidenburg), R-M417, R-Z283
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski b. 1780, Kuty (Kutten), R-Z280, R-Z92
kit 145455 Scheffrahn b. Kętrzyn (Rastenburg) R-M417

Haplogroup N1c - 20:

kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns b. 1715 Mosteiten (now Slawjanskoje, Kaliningrad Oblast), N-L550, L1025+
kit 142919 Wilhelm Edward Spangehl b. 1819 Ragnit (now Neman, Kaliningrad O.) N-L550, L1025+
kit 217892 Johann Groening b. 1800 Krzewiny (Horsterbusch) N-L731
kit E13080 Joannes Reihs b. 1800 Bisztynek (Bischofstein), N-L550, N-L1025
kit E9638 August Darge b. 1870 Bartoszyce (Bartenstein), N-L550, L1025+, N-M231+, N-M178
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski b. 1850 Lötzen (Giżycko) N-L550, N-L551, L1025
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher b. 1729 Schoenfeld (near Braniewo/Braunsberg) N-L550, N-M232
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis b. 1745 Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), N-L550
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch b. 1874 Campinschken near Tilsit N-L550, N-M178
kit E13080 Joannes Reihs b. 1800 Bisztynek (Bischofstein) N-L1025
kit 284236 Wannagat b. 1880, Jogeln/Göritten (Puschkino)/Stallupönen (Nesterov), N-M178
kit 147092 Johann Bever b. 1800, Ryabinovoye (Kaliningrad Oblast), N-M178
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, b. Vishtinets, N-M232
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit b. 1800 Eszerischken, N-L1025
kit N58382 Dargil, b. ca. 1344, Gut Dargels near Braunsberg, N-L1025
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, 1815, Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg), N-M231, N-L1025
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, b. 1758, Łapka (in Warmia, near Allenstein), N-M232, N-L1025
kit 173926 Baltazar Chylinski/Hilinski, 1866-1925, Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), N-L1025
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, b. 1729, Malbork (Marienburg), N-M232, L1025
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, Kolonie Bismarck bei Heydekrug, N-L551, L1025

Haplogroup R1b - 12:

kit E15373 Johann Voelkner b. 1748 Rodnowo (Reddenau) R-M269
kit E10648 Jacob Preuschoff b. 1575 Klejnówko (Klenau) R1b-L48
kit N69965 Otto Emil Kraft, b. 1893 Tilsit R-P312
kit 81967 Johann M. Wentzel, 1845-1923, Marienburg, R-DF13
kit 59511 Johann Schwarm, b. 1814 Kwidzyń (Marienwerder), R-M269
kit 17375 Bäsner, b. 1840, Heilsberg/Braunsberg, R-S5970
kit E4574 b. 1844 in Kallinowen, Kreis Lyck, R-M269
kit 253571 Heinrich Bartel 1766-1828 Grudziądz (Graudenz) R-M269, R-U106
kit N14933 Walenty Straszewski, b. 1731, Waldowo Szlacheckie, R-L23, R-Z2103
kit 266572 Karol Zalewski, b. 1812, Rozogi (near Ortelsburg), R-U106, R-Z8
kit N112758 Ignatius Reis b. 1858 Wabcz R-M269
kit N43078 Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), R-23 (Z2103 or CTS7822 or CTS9219 needed)

Haplogroup I1 - 6:

kit 125721 Gustav Schedlinski b. Jeziorowskie (Seedorf) I-M253
kit 181479 Ludwig Muller b. 1858 Mamonovo (Heiligenbeil) I-M253, I-Z60
kit 169101 Otto Bewer b. 1899 Groß Skaisgirren I-M253
kit 330214 Heinrich Kardell, 1841-1878, Graudenz, I-M253
kit 164185 August Napierski 1879-1962, Sensburg (Mrągowo), I-M253, I-P109
kit 64526 Jurgis Serapins, b. 1857, Piktupenai (Picktupöhnen), I-M253

Haplogroup I2 - 4:

kit E2677 Carl L. Nath b. 1820 Osterode (Ostróda) I-M423
kit E7698 Michael Rimek b. 1723 Szczytno (Ortelsburg), I-P37, M423+
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, 1790-1860, Prabuty (Riesenburg) I-P37
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, b. 1730, Gruta (Grutta), I-M423

Haplogroup J - 1:

kit 173911 Wolf Zimak alias Simon Freybuschewitz b. Dąbrówno (Gilgenburg) d. 1884, J-PF5456

Haplogroup E - 1:

kit E4759 Johan Krüger 1680 Wehlau (now Znamensk, Kaliningrad Oblast), E-V13

Haplogroup G - 1:

kit 260477 Walkau, Königsberg, G-M201

Haplogroup T - 1:

kit 96408 Michael Hohenfeld b. Tolkmicko (Tolkemit), T-M70

==================
==================

Have I missed any kits? Perhaps some new ones were added since August 2015 when I compiled this list.

 

[Tomenable]

Note that most of the samples date back to the 18th or 19th centuries, but one N1c dates back to the 14th century:

kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels near Braniewo (Braunsberg), N-L1025

 

[DuPidh]

Bavarian separatism, for the most part, is a joke. Although in all fairness, I have to say that the secessionist party of Bavaria, the Bayernpartei, received their best result since the 1960s during the most recent state election (2013), about 2.1%, which means they failed to get into the state's parliament.

Yes, non-Bavarian Germans love to make fun of the Bavarians, but I do not think that such a secession will ever happen. I would say it is on the same level of likelihood as the Confederate States of America rising from its ashes.

Bavarian's are very egalitarian society. A German women I now told me that. If a few more refugees enter the country Bavarian Independence is no longer a joke.

 

[sparkey]

Tomenable, my sample size was 25 for the East Prussian Germans, and I got them from a single project: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ostpreussen-east-prussia/

It looks like you got a higher N1c:I1 ratio than I did, which would calculate as closer to the Old Prussians than mine did.

Looking for German names only, I see in your samples an R1a:R1b:N:I1 adjusted-to-100 ratio of roughly: 47 : 22 : 22 : 9 (mine had been 32 : 24 : 28 : 16)

Calculating your sample the same way I calculated mine, that gives 61% Old Prussian (mine had given 49%).

 

[Auld Reekie]

What about Schleswig-Holstein and Angeln? It could easily be a part of Denmark and the Netherlands linguistically.

 

[Taranis]

Bavarian's are very egalitarian society. A German women I now told me that. If a few more refugees enter the country Bavarian Independence is no longer a joke.

Bavaria is very egalitarian? You've obviously never been to Munich. Also, the refugee situation is not the problem of Germany alone, let alone of Bavaria alone, and seceding (and building a wall around it!) is not going to solve that. Its exactly like Sparkey said, there are secessionist movement elsewhere in Europe (Catalonia and Scotland, in particular) that are far more likely to succeed.

 

[DuPidh]

Bavaria is very egalitarian? You've obviously never been to Munich. Also, the refugee situation is not the problem of Germany alone, let alone of Bavaria alone, and seceding (and building a wall around it!) is not going to solve that. Its exactly like Sparkey said, there are secessionist movement elsewhere in Europe (Catalonia and Scotland, in particular) that are far more likely to succeed.

In my building lives a women originally from Berlin but now a US citizen. She tells me that Bavarian's are not real Germans. I was so surprised since I thought Bavaria is the heart of Germany.

 

[ElHorsto]

What about Schleswig-Holstein and Angeln? It could easily be a part of Denmark and the Netherlands linguistically.

Netherlands and Denmark are very different. Danish is a north germanic language like all scandinavian, while Dutch and German are west germanic like english. The only people shared by both and Germany are the Frisians at the coasts, who are only a very tiny minority in Denmark. The Angeln became part of Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark, but not Netherlands.
Netherlands, like Germany without Bavaria, is divided in roughly three zones:
1. North: Frisian (moderate size in Holland, tiny in Germany, very tiny in southern Denmark)
2. Middle: Saxon (moderate size in Holland, big in Germany, very tiny in southern Denmark)
3. South: Frankish (big in Holland, big in Germany, absent in Denmark).
There is also the ancient Batavian land in west Netherlands, but their fate is unknown.

The Saxon part of Dutch overlaps with Westphalian dialects. Some claim that Westphalia has dialects which are closer to standard Dutch than Dutch itself. These saxon/phalian regions are situated inlands, rather far away from Denmark, Schleswig-Holstein and the sea. On the other hand, Phalian (=old Saxon) is the root of Low German that became the language in all northern Germany between Holland and Poland, including Schleswig-Holstein.

But the Dutch language was controversial, as it was considered part of Low German until recently, but today not anymore, probably because its frankish influence is too heavy.
It is possible that there are slightly different opinions of what I said, but roughly it should be correct.

 

[Taranis]

In my building lives a women originally from Berlin but now a US citizen. She tells me that Bavarian's are not real Germans. I was so surprised since I thought Bavaria is the heart of Germany.

Who's a "real" German? Considering that Germany as an actual nation state did not exist before the 1870s, and its forerunner, the Holy Roman Empire (of the German Nation) was a hodge-podge of states and ethnicities. Bavaria is hardly unique in having joined unified German state relatively late (the very same applies for the historic states of Baden and Württemberg), yet these do not adhere to this "exceptionalist" view that the Bavarians do. I would actually argue that Bavaria is one of Germany's oldest and most continuous states, as it was amongst the original "stem duchies" (or "tribal duchies") that became the Eastern part of the Frankish Empire (the later Holy Roman Empire).

 

[Auld Reekie]

Netherlands and Denmark are very different. Danish is a north germanic language like all scandinavian, while Dutch and German are west germanic like english. The only people shared by both and Germany are the Frisians at the coasts, who are only a very tiny minority in Denmark. The Angeln became part of Schleswig-Holstein and Denmark, but not Netherlands.
Netherlands, like Germany without Bavaria, is divided in roughly three zones:
1. North: Frisian (moderate size in Holland, tiny in Germany, very tiny in southern Denmark)
2. Middle: Saxon (moderate size in Holland, big in Germany, very tiny in southern Denmark)
3. South: Frankish (big in Holland, big in Germany, absent in Denmark).
There is also the ancient Batavian land in west Netherlands, but their fate is unknown.

The Saxon part of Dutch overlaps with Westphalian dialects. Some claim that Westphalia has dialects which are closer to standard Dutch than Dutch itself. These saxon/phalian regions are situated inlands, rather far away from Denmark, Schleswig-Holstein and the sea. On the other hand, Phalian (=old Saxon) is the root of Low German that became the language in all northern Germany between Holland and Poland, including Schleswig-Holstein.

But the Dutch language was controversial, as it was considered part of Low German until recently, but today not anymore, probably because its frankish influence is too heavy.
It is possible that there are slightly different opinions of what I said, but roughly it should be correct.

I never meant that that Denmark and the Netherlands were similar but that Angeln had North Frisians and Schleswig-Holstein had Danish and both had Low German. I was up late listening to various Germanic languages to hear the differences and similarities. I think Dutch and German have influenced Low German to a degree so that complicates their relationship with each other. Politically though, Angeln I believe was part of Schleswig-Holstein I believe?