Four questions for those who still believe in prehistoric Slavs and other fairy tales

[Milan]

Even if you have the pre-composed opinion that the name Ulfilas/Wulfilas somehow cannot be Germanic and that the etymology is bogus for you, it doesn't change the fact that Biblical Gothic is an authentic Germanic language that could not have been 'forged' by romanticists in the 1600s (which was your assertation). Like I said before, it is not that people in previous ages (before the 20th century) did not produce constructed languages, because they very much did (Hildegard von Bingen's 12th century Lingua Ignota comes to my mind). But to actually construct Gothic would have required a background in linguistics (which as a science wasn't developed at that point in time). Please bear in mind that the people who, for example, well-known, elaborate constructed languages such Klingon and Quenya were invented by actual linguists (Mark Okrand and J.R.R. Tolkien, respectively), and in both cases we are talking about clearly fictional languages.

So stop pretending that Gothic is an invented language. If it is, your fabled 16th century German romanticists were centuries ahead in their linguistic expertise, and they were so gifted that it happens that only the thorough analysis by South Slavic nationalists who are not blinded by Germanic romanticism can pinpoint the truth!

What I wrote then was what other claim and I haven't even read them,that much I am interested in that,maybe if I does one day can say their arguments, for my claim sorry if I was being provocative, so are you.What I can bring in question or know more for example about origin of South Slavs written in Dioclea by priest in 12th century or bit later,for some reason the book he call is the book about Goths or known in Latin as regnum Sclavorum and he don't make difference between them,written in Latin,whether is true or not,he wrote a bit extensive history which doesn't agree with what we know.

[Taranis]

I am not assuming it. I know it and it is a well known fact. It is evident from the Sclavenic names. For example Οστροβουνιπραχ /οstrovuniprax/, 'v' written with 'β'.
'b' written with 'μπ' is not at all a modern convention.

I disagree. As I said, the letter Beta (Ββ) was indeed pronounced as /v/ in the Middle Ages, but in spelling convention, people would just substitute /b/ as "v" (β). The convention to spell /b/ as 'mp' (μπ) is a modern convention. One example that comes to my mind, even if it is from (very) early Byzantine Greek, would be Procopius (in his Gothic War, book 1, chapter 15), who spells Ravenna as Rabenna (Ραβεννα) and Benavente as Benebenton (Βενεβεντον). For the latter, it would be intuitive (from the perspective of modern Greek) to render both Betas as "v", but in the name Benavente, the first Beta clearly represents a /b/, and the second represents a /v/. If you find one example where a /b/ in a foreign name is rendered /mp/ in medieval Greek (closer in time to the Volga route), please show us.

Γελανδρι /jelanðri/ is a 'Sclavenic' term in the text and means ήχος φραγμού, not a term used by Rus, so even if you want to propose a Germanic etymology (I recognize that it's easy to do it) it has nothing to do with the Rus.
It would have been a Germanic term used by Slavs and nothing more than that.

And here I thought we were talking about Varangians (i.e. Norse). Also, stop applying the phonology of modern Greek (Gamma as /j/) retroactively to medieval Greek. It doesn't work that way.

[Milan]

Why the Catholic church called our Glagolitic script a "heretic gothic script".
The Roman Catholic church in it's fight against Slavic language in church usage, Dalmatia gathering of bishops 1059;

They said that the Gothic letters were invented by some heretic Methodius, who in this very Slavic language wrote many false things against the teachings of the Catholic faith; because of this, they say, he was God's judgment punished with demise.



In the South with our supposed "Christianization" that is coming in the Orthodox faith new alphabet was invented,that is the Cyrillic one derived from Greek generaly,with couple letters from other alphabets,and the Glagolitic one fail out of usage.
There is no generaly agreement who invented this alphabet or on what is based? however Methodius and Cyril are credited with it's invention whether or not why will their disciples only one generation after them invent a Cyrillic alphabet?
By Croatian legend even St.Jerome used to write with it,which is dismissed today.

The "heretic" script from a church in Zagreb,Croatia.

Early examples;



I hope i can learn this alphabet one day,good for the Croatian and Czech churches, if im not mistaken there is still used.

[Milan]

Goths and Getae who were they?
The early authors;
Jordanes,Isidore of Seville, Orosius, Philostorgius, Procopius,Yeronim Claudius etc thought that this people are the same,their name is variation of one and the same;
Jordanes who was Goth himself give them Getae (Thracian) history.

Even much later authors about creation of Gothic alphabet;
According to 17th century scholar Carolus Lundius (sv) Ulfilas created the Gothic alphabet based on the Getae's alphabet, with minor alterations. Carolus is quoting Bonaventura Vulcanius' book, De literis et lingua Getarum sive Gothorum, (Lyon, 1597) and Johannes Magnus, Gothus, Historia de omnibus Gothorum Sueonumque regibus, Roma, 1554, a book in which it has been published, for the first time, both the Getic alphabet, and the laws of the Getae legislator Zamolxis.

Zalmoxis bear in mind a Getae god mentioned since Herodotus.

Let's quote now Theophylact Simocatta,one of the first authors that had contact with Sclavenes;
As for the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercly ravaging the regions of Thrace.
These, therefore, encountered six hundred Sclavenes who were escorting a great haul of Romans, for they had ravaged Zaldapa, Aquis, and Scopi, and were herding back these unfortunates as plunder; a large number of wagons held the possessions they had looted. When the barbarians observed the Romans approaching, and were then likewise observed, they turned to the slaughter of the captives. Then the adult male captives from youth upwards were killed. Since the barbarians could not avoid an encounter, they collected the wagons and placed them round as a barricade, depositing the women and youth in the middle of the defence.The Romans drew near to the Getae (for this is the older name for the barbarians)

The earliest history written about South Slavs by a priest in Dioclea(12th century) starts this way;

Since you ask me, my beloved brothers in Christ and respected priests of the Archdiocese of Dioclean church, and several of the gentlemen, and most young people in our city, who enjoy not only listening to and reading about the wars, and of the wars themselves, as it is already the custom for young people the booklet on the Goths, which is called in Latin Regnum Sclavorum, in which are described all their acts and wars, recompile from Slavic alphabet to Latin, forcing my own age, and driven by fraternal love, I have tried to oblige your request. Still not even one reader should think that I wrote anything other than what I have heard from our fathers and ancient lords that is transmitted as a true saying.


Why in ancient times there was so much "confusing" and miss understadings,while we in more modern times came to understand everything about "our" ancestors?

[Milan]

That is to say a religious wars-oppression,for no reason the bishop's wasn't captured by Narentine pirates in Dalmatia;
known for their piracy, so they are today known as the Neretva pirates.

Already by the middle of the 7th century – in 642 – the Sclavenes dispatched from the Dalmatian coast towards Italy and invaded Siponto at the Gulf of Monte Gargano. Afterwards, raids in the Adriatic increased rapidly, until Sclavenes became the most fearsome threat to safe travelling.
By the second half of the 9th century the Narentines had long been trying change their lifestyle from piracy completely. Despite that, the Narentines kidnapped the Roman Bishop's emissaries that were returning from the Ecclesiastical Council in Constantinople in the middle of March 870,until Eastern Roman Emperor Basil I of the Macedonian dynasty finally pacified them with a naval military attempt, after which he reunified the whole of Dalmatia under Imperial Byzantine rule.

These Narentani defeated a Venetian fleet in 887, and for more than a century exacted tribute from Venice itself. In 998 they were finally crushed by the doge Pietro Orseolo II., who assumed the title duke of Dalmatia, though without prejudice to Byzantine suzerainty.— Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911

[Taranis]

Goths and Getae who were they?
The early authors;
Jordanes,Isidore of Seville, Orosius, Philostorgius, Procopius,Yeronim Claudius etc thought that this people are the same,their name is variation of one and the same;
Jordanes who was Goth himself give them Getae (Thracian) history.

The amusing issue is that the earlier authors (Strabo, Ptolemy, Tacitus, Pliny) think of them as two distinct people. For Strabo (book 7, chapter 3), Getai (Γεται) and Dakoi (Δακοι) are synonyms. The same is the case with Pliny (Natural History, book 4, chapter 80). The Getae were a (clearly non-Germanic) people living near the mouth of the Danube, while the Goths/Gotones were a Germanic people living somewhere in the farthest east of Germania, east from the Lugians (Strabo's Geograhy, book 7, chapter 3 and Tacitus' Germania, section 44).

Even much later authors about creation of Gothic alphabet;
According to 17th century scholar Carolus Lundius (sv) Ulfilas created the Gothic alphabet based on the Getae's alphabet, with minor alterations.

Where is your archaeological/epigraphic evidence for the very existence of this 'Getic' alphabet? It is very clear that the Gothic alphabet was a new creation based of Latin, Greek and Runic. I wouldn't take Carolus Lundius' word for gospel without further evidence.

Zalmoxis bear in mind a Getae god mentioned since Herodotus.

Note how the name "Zalmoxis" is decisively not Germanic, and neither are the place names around the lower Danube (think of the typical Dacian -dava ending). It should be clear that Dacian and Biblical Gothic are two altogether different languages.

Why in ancient times there was so much "confusing" and miss understadings,while we in more modern times came to understand everything about "our" ancestors?

Because the later authors were confused about it and projected into the past what they knew?

There is no evidence that would support this idea that there's a direct linguistic continuity from the Getae to the Goths to the medieval South Slavs. We're talking about three different linguistic groups.

[Milan]

The amusing issue is that the earlier authors (Strabo, Ptolemy, Tacitus, Pliny) think of them as two distinct people. For Strabo (book 7, chapter 3), Getai (Γεται) and Dakoi (Δακοι) are synonyms. The same is the case with Pliny (Natural History, book 4, chapter 80). The Getae were a (clearly non-Germanic) people living near the mouth of the Danube, while the Goths/Gotones were a Germanic people living somewhere in the farthest east of Germania, east from the Lugians (Strabo's Geograhy, book 7, chapter 3 and Tacitus' Germania, section 44).

Please tell me how Gothi become Goutones (Strabo),Gutones (Pliny) Gotones(Ptolemy),to me this two names arent's synonyms,even Getai and Gothi aren't but they are equoted all of the time as one and same,can you tell me which ancient author equote Gothi and Gotones by contrast?
Plus does anyone mention migration of the Gotones in lower Danube,Moesia or Thrace?
Getae by contrast are indegenous in lower Danube,they weren't migrating from anywhere.

Where is your archaeological/epigraphic evidence for the very existence of this 'Getic' alphabet? It is very clear that the Gothic alphabet was a new creation based of Latin, Greek and Runic. I wouldn't take Carolus Lundius' word for gospel without further evidence.

I have no such proof,can you find a Gothic language inscribed on stone or church in places settled by them,as i find for Glagolitic or Cyrilic for example in place settled by Sclavenes?

Note how the name "Zalmoxis" is decisively not Germanic, and neither are the place names around the lower Danube (think of the typical Dacian -dava ending). It should be clear that Dacian and Biblical Gothic are two altogether different languages.

Indeed but Zalmoxis is mentioned by Jordanes,the same author a Goth himself,just as first mythical homeland of Scandza a Getic not Gothic homeland is mentioned by him which somehow we "equote" with Scandinavia,why we take that to literate then?
By the way since when name Scandinavia is used as such in literary sources?

There is no evidence that would support this idea that there's a direct linguistic continuity from the Getae to the Goths to the medieval South Slavs. We're talking about three different linguistic groups.

I won't disagree there apart from equoting in ancient sources,im just questioning.

[A. Papadimitriou]

I disagree. As I said, the letter Beta (Ββ) was indeed pronounced as /v/ in the Middle Ages, but in spelling convention, people would just substitute /b/ as "v" (β). The convention to spell /b/ as 'mp' (μπ) is a modern convention. One example that comes to my mind, even if it is from (very) early Byzantine Greek, would be Procopius (in his Gothic War, book 1, chapter 15), who spells Ravenna as Rabenna (Ραβεννα) and Benavente as Benebenton (Βενεβεντον). For the latter, it would be intuitive (from the perspective of modern Greek) to render both Betas as "v", but in the name Benavente, the first Beta clearly represents a /b/, and the second represents a /v/. If you find one example where a /b/ in a foreign name is rendered /mp/ in medieval Greek (closer in time to the Volga route), please show us.



And here I thought we were talking about Varangians (i.e. Norse). Also, stop applying the phonology of modern Greek (Gamma as /j/) retroactively to medieval Greek. It doesn't work that way.

I have to say that you are right in the sense that 'b' could have been used for both 'v' and 'b' in a foreign word (but only 'v' for the rest, and using μπ for b wasn't a modern convention so what I said was partly wrong). In that particular text there is 'γγ' for 'g' (presumably) though (Iγγώρ) and if we accept the Germanic etymologies there is ντ for 'nd'. In the text there is one "ὁ ∆αυὶδ ὁ Μάμπαλις" but Ι am not sure what sound it represents because it can be a Caucasian (?) word.


The word 'Γελανδρί' in the text is supposed to be a 'sclavenic' word and they included it in Rus' words. But they didn't accept doing that but instead decided to twist what the text says. What was the pronunciation of Γ? In modern greek it's γ before a,o,u and j before e, i. Was it γ? Ι guess you can say that it was also used for g and ɟ in foreign names (and maybe even ʑ I would add) but there is one example of γγ for g in that particular text.

In the Introduction of the Russian Primary Chronicle translated and edited by Samuel Hazzard Cross and Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor they write (p. 42):

The third is named only in Rus' as Γελανδρί with the remark that it is translated in to Slavic as ήχος φραγμού

That's not true. He doesn't give a Rus word and then translate it to Slavic but he gives a Slavic word (a word from that particular dialect)

And they didn't do only this, they change another passage too. 'Μεγάλη λίμνην αποτελεί' became 'Μεγάλη δίνην αποτελεί'. Τhe big lake became big wave, because that appeared to them better for something named 'wave rapid'.

And of course the names of the Rus' were 'normalised'.

[Milan]

I'd like to note that it is not relevant what they called themselves (even if I concede that the "speaker" versus "mute" dichotomy is quite suggestive).

I won't agree with this,cause word "nem" (mute,dumb) could as well come from the Germanic tribe "Nemetes",it is how Germanic people are called "Nemtsi",because of given no clear cognates in IE languages i think is of folk etymology,just as in western language the word "slave" is.Nemeto however come to be a Celtic sacred place.Also we do use other words for such things.
For instance "dumb"-glup from gluh (deaf) and so on.. has Baltic cognate.

By contrast "slovo" is always translated as "logos" in church usage as in Greek,"slovo" might had the similar connotation with Greek logos.
I have good comparisons;
Take the words for blessing;
Greek;
Eulogos
from εὖ ‎(eû, “good”) + λόγος ‎(lógos, “utterance, narrative”)
Slavic;
Blagoslov
from Blago(good)+slovo("word" or utterance)
Greek
Astrologist ‎(ástron, “star, planet, or constellation”) +λόγος ‎(lógos)

Slavic
Zvezdoslovac attested in 17th century south-slavic zvezda(star)+ slovo the same.
Slovo bozije is equivalent to Logos of god again.

Apart from that as Curta noted both of them arose in different political and historical circumstances,to compare they arose by contrast is not so convincing just guesing,and is not good to take a guess for truth.

[Nik]

Since u mentioned Nemtsi from nem, the Albanian word for a mute person is memeci (memetsi).

[Marcipanko]

I'm not surprised that such claims are supported by someone identifying himself as Yugoslav. It is a artificial identity made up by communist party in order to repress nationalism. Nota bene, only 5% of population identified as Yugoslav. Yugoslavia in that form ceased to exist in 1991. I'm saying this as ethnic Slav, Croat (Croatia was part of Yugoslavia). Also Slavic language doesn't exist. The one he is speaking is either Slovenian or more probably Serbian (not enough words were given)