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Thread: Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

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    Not a real new but a "leak" already spread by DNA blogs. There was a talk in the Dorset County Museum by Volker Heyd the past week. It was announced so:

    Recent results from archaeological excavations and various sciences are about to alter our models describing the European Bell Beaker phenomenon and challenge established previous insights. The author will present the current state of understanding and set out to explain the wider picture of events between east and west of Europe in the late fourth and first half of the third millennium BC contributing to the emergence, expansion and establishing of Bell Beakers.
    Jean Manco attended the talk and did some questions, his resumé in Anthrogenica was:

    Reporting back on the lecture on Bell Beaker by Volker Heyd this evening in Dorchester. The expected two aDNA papers on Bell Beaker have been delayed for the best possible reason. The two teams, one from Harvard and the other from Copenhagen, have agreed to amalgamate their results into one huge paper, which will give the results of over 200 samples. It is due to be published in a couple of months. Until then all the results are embargoed. Volker Heyd would only say that they are exciting.

    He would also prefer me not to divulge everything he said at the lecture on the archaeological side, since he has a paper coming out in the March issue of Antiquity on Bell Beaker; while in the same issue will be one by Kristiansen on Corded Ware. So I'll be brief. He went through the various theories of the origins of Bell Beaker: the Dutch model prevalent until the 1990s, the change wrought by the Muller and Van Willigen radiocarbon date compilation of 2001 and subsequent publications of early dates in Iberia, the various attempts to make sense of an Iberian origin. The problem of the latter and of the idea of a North African origin are the same in his view. There is no prior usage of cord in pottery decoration of either. So he sticks by the Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture proposed in Harrison and Heyd 2007. The icing on the cake lies in two significant new discoveries, which are not entirely published as yet.
    The words "challenge" and "problem" and the verbs "to make sense" and "he sticks" fit well for Yamnayists? Why Heyd must stick in a Yamnayan origin for Bell Beakers if archaeology is not providing reasons? by DNA results?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Results from Unambiguous Bell Beaker:

    Bell Beaker from Kromsdorf 4550 ybp = 0% H + 100% ( T1a, K1, I1a1, W5a, U2e, U5a1 )

    Bell Beaker from Benzingerode-Heimburg 4300/4200 ybp = 0% H + 100% ( T2a, W1, U5a )

    Bell Beaker from Quedlinburg 4300/4200 ybp = 50% H5/H1 + 50% ( T2e, J1c, U5a, U5b )

    Bell Beaker from Rothenschirmbach 4300/4200 ybp = 60% H5/H3 + 40% ( K1a2 )

    Bell Beaker from Alberstedt 4300/4200 ybp = 100% H5/H3 + 0% ( - )

    1- The oldest tested Bell Beaker population is Kromsdorf and there is not found any H carrier.
    2- H5 is the only H haplogroup shared among all of these Bell Beaker populations where H is found.
    3- H5 is found in a 8350 ybp individual from Anatolia.
    4- K1a2 is found in a 8350 ybp individual from Anatolia.
    5- W1 is found in a 8350 ybp individual from Anatolia.
    6- T1a is found in a 9500 ybp individual from Jordan.
    7- T2e is found in a 7500 ybp individual from Neolithic Hungary.
    8- J1c is found in a 9900 ybp individual from Neolithic Iran.
    9- H3 is found in a 7300 ybp individual from Neolithic Portugal.
    As previously posted, new Bell Beaker results from Iberian Peninsula confirms again that mtDNA H was not linked to R1b. Instead, mtDNA H is strongly linked to Early Neolithic populations with peaks in those where Y-DNA T1a1 have been found close.
    https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de...00000815&la=en
    Last edited by Alpenjager; 08-12-16 at 13:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Not a real new but a "leak" already spread by DNA blogs. There was a talk in the Dorset County Museum by Volker Heyd the past week. It was announced so:



    Jean Manco attended the talk and did some questions, his resumé in Anthrogenica was:



    The words "challenge" and "problem" and the verbs "to make sense" and "he sticks" fit well for Yamnayists? Why Heyd must stick in a Yamnayan origin for Bell Beakers if archaeology is not providing reasons? by DNA results?
    I don't think he is commenting on DNA issues. His theory was that at least the central european BB had a Yamnaya origin. The older dates found for Iberian BB put that in question, since they suggest an Iberian origin. Based on the usage of corded decoration he still thinks at least the central European BB has a Yamnaya origin. Also, it's very irritating that the reply window doesn't accept spaces.
    Last edited by rafc; 07-12-16 at 16:05. Reason: Addes spaces

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    As previously posted, new Bell Beaker results from Iberian Peninsula confirms again that mtDNA H was not linked to R1b. Instead, mtDNA H is strongly linked to Early Neolithic populations with peaks in those were Y-DNA T1a1 have been found close.
    https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de...00000815&la=en
    Did the 2 x T1a-M70 found in Central Germany 5500BC who both had H mtdna markers , come from Iberia with "H mtdna " already or did these T1a-M70 meets the H1 and H46 in Central Germany?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Did the 2 x T1a-M70 found in Central Germany 5500BC who both had H mtdna markers , come from Iberia with "H mtdna " already or did these T1a-M70 meets the H1 and H46 in Central Germany?
    They probably arrived together to the North European Plain coming from somewhere in the East.

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    @Alpenjager, there is a paper out there delivering some 75-80% of H in Neolithic Portugal, just look at it. And good question placed to you by zanipolo, but your answer is not matching archaeology.

    @rafc, to me it's undeniable that the AOC BB has some relation with the CWC, but it's an usual case when two cultures meet. Even so, you need first International BB and CWC to get the AOC; also dates are going so, and by that Heyd and other Yamnayists will have great headaches trying to insert the square into the circle.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Berun, it's proven that you can't deal with facts when your agenda have not been satisfied. You are talking about Alfonso 2010 work? These samples are classified as Chalcolithic but not belonging to Bell Beakers.

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    nope, it's a paper of 2005.

    Now you can try to guess the colour of my occult agenda, maybe you have more chances to get the right thing with that.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Of course, the "Chandler 2005" outdated paper, mostly unreliable data. Anyway, none Beaker.

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    Goal! But you was criticising my agenda as to dismiss the unsuitable data and now you say that this data is mostly unreliable...? Wow, your agenda is pretty impressive. Ans how much of this data (13 samples) is unreliable for you??? By the way i'm allways saying about Neolithic cases, no BB, no Chalco... read better.

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    Not a leak but a true doc dealing about Bell Beaker mtDNA: Roth, Christina, Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula, dissertation, Univ. Mainz, 2016

    some points that are worth to mark:

    p.33 the author is providing the mtDNA haplos found in Ukraine and steppes... no characteristic regional mtDNA is found in Iberian BB, so that whichever Yamnayist would try to link this culture to IE is left with few alternatives as the steppe warriors came without their women (no mtDNA), the warriors were selected taking into account their mtDNA (not eastern mtDNA were allowed), and they did not left any track in archaeology (no steppe cultural traits in Corded Ware and much less in BB), so that the unique way left for the steppe warriors was traveling by sea (surely riding sirens).

    p.90 BB of Central Spain cluster with Portuguese Calcholithic

    p.135 the author thinks that the genetic difference between Central Spain BB and other contemporary Iberian groups points to a migration, discarting a simple "pots difussion".

    p.147 and 150 no genetic relation between Central Spain BB and Central Europe BB, but there is an Iberian connection with high H mtDNA groups and with the appaearance of H3. It's quite important to know that the Central Spain BB arrive there at the same time as BB in Central Europe.

    the most good point is in page 148 "Genetic evidence so far can therefore dismiss an Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker phenomenon with demic distribution into Central Europe -at least on mitochondrial level; one will have to await what Y-chromosomal or autosomal ancient DNA data will show."

    the case with mtDNA freq data alone is problematic: haplos are old enough as to have refugied after glaciations and expanded after warming, and haplos are old enough to have traveled along major migrations, but also step by step after so many millennia by marrying non locals and/or by considering women as a good to exchange.

    Just empirism could show the case of mtDNA freqs quite well: surely the mtDNA freq in Spain, Chile, Bolivia and Ecuador will be quite different, but such differences couldn't tell anything about the common language used in such countries, or the freq of R1b there.

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    If FIRST BBs were predominantly males, they could have taken females in target lands - if they came from East Mediter (not Steppes) they could have send some Near-Easternlike females mt DNA (and their own maternal mt); it's only when they were well settled near the Atlantic shores they could have taken mt-H with them, so later? I fear we overlook the possible role of Megalithic cultures in the diffusion process in West and North. I 'm angry to know their coming results. Maybe some surprises for me and others...

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    Who can tell me what type of pots where made in early-neolithic central Europe ?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ... and nobody talks about that African L1B in this BB pool... everybody dismisses always the SSA component in BB admix as bad sampling for ages... or the admix in german BB having Iberian chalcolithic adna Admix noticeble by having a whiff of SSA.

    Look at wikipidia Map for L1b and its noticeble the blog in Siwa desert oasis (extremely High in R1b) and also the chad basin (extremely high in R1b-V88) ---and people always follow kinship.

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    a comment I have posted in Eurogenes.

    "What is amazing is how steppe addicted some here are.
    Would this paper elicit anything steppe? No! on the contrary.

    It elicit comments for why would that BB have a L1b mtdna and how the hotbeds of L1b are the Chad basin and for instance the Siwa oasis that are also hotbeds of R1b-V88. Is there a connection? since we know humans follow kinship and autosomal ancestors could really identify each other as similar?
    Well I have an all chapter (in Shulaveri2Bellbeaker) where I describe that journey don’t I?

    It elicits questions as to U5a1. Why Portugal had so many U5a1.
    There are even others that were not in this study (such as the late 2015 David Gonçalves one I posted) where you have U5a1 from 3780 ± 65 BC just next to a 3735 ± 45 (Lol and behold) recent subclade H10e whose other sample we have is a 2600bc H10e Corded ware in the exact place where BB met CWC. What does that mean?

    It elicits the question that if U5a was a trademark of WHG as much as u5b was of more eastern parts (I think) and Portugal archeology states for long that Neolithic did arrive very late hence remaining very Hunter gatherer do BB show an added percentage of WHG admix and would that help to understand its mark in western Europe?

    It elicits the question that if I am right (I am not saying I am!) what would a population loaded up with Barcin, CHG and a small part of EHG mixing in chalcolithic Portugal with part Neolithic (-) part still WHG (+) admixture and spreading all over Europe would look like?

    So many questions it elicits… but some are stuck in there. Yamnaya. When you are an hammer everything is a nail to you. I suppose

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    Nobody put a great weight on it, it doesn't mean nobody knows; but when DNA or culture traits are shared, we have always to find out the source and the target, nothing more. I don't ignore the BBs imput in North Africa nor the presence of mt H there among Berbers tribes by instance; but we need far more data for diverse places and times before we can do serious conclusions. I never thought there has not been exchanges between the two sides of Gibraltar straight. The presence of SSA or NA DNA in South Iberia to date is not sufficient to concude anything about BBs far origins, maybe only contacts. We know contacts exist between Sicilia and Tunisia at least since the 6000 BC ("second Mesolithic" or unkown origin, present too on East Adriatic shores, and pushed by Neolithic advance towards West and then North, before to disappear completelty); it could have concerned Y-E1b poto-V13 and mt-H too who knows? I lost my cristal globe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    ... and nobody talks about that African L1B in this BB pool... everybody dismisses always the SSA component in BB admix as bad sampling for ages... or the admix in german BB having Iberian chalcolithic adna Admix noticeble by having a whiff of SSA.

    Look at wikipidia Map for L1b and its noticeble the blog in Siwa desert oasis (extremely High in R1b) and also the chad basin (extremely high in R1b-V88) ---and people always follow kinship.
    From my side I have not commented nothing about BB L1b because I don't know how to deal with it; to me it could be a clade just carried with the European neolitization, as well a clade got into the African neolitization (which seems that also reached south Spain and Portugal). You can check it as to know why I can't say much: Europe-endemic lineages of mtDNA hg L* and trans-Gibraltar movement in prehistory

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Moesan
    1 - I think we had a lenghtly conversation (I think it was you, if not sorry) about Bell beakers origin in Portugal near the Tagus river. Lengthly conversation about "Copos" culture and earliest BB datings in places where no exogenous population would ever be allowed to enter. At the door steppes of Leceia Fortress and over VNSP fighting ground.

    2 - Then about J. Desideri work in bell beakers. large and vast samples of Nm dental traits. And how those are a good proxy for Adna. again Desideri tells the same story of an Iberian origin of Bell beakers and how actually at least on the conveyor belt she analyzed, Iberia, South France, Switzerland they moved back an forth but not mixing with locals or even ever taking BB influences from the Germanic BBC. Local mixing only occurring in late neolithic & Chalcolithic north Iberia and in Bohemia to form the mix of BB/CWC that was the germanic BB with have samples for. But no. Nm dentral didnt tell the right story so was downplayed because it was not DNA.

    3 - Now we have a DNA paper that confirms by Mtdna the exact story Desideri with the added specifcity that actually DNA for those BB were actually from Portugal were we have the earliest dating for BB.

    So, full circle. 90% of what is considered valid Archaeological proofs do not have this much about it behind it. That is a fact to be reckon. That simple.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    @Moesan
    1 - I think we had a lenghtly conversation (I think it was you, if not sorry) about Bell beakers origin in Portugal near the Tagus river. Lengthly conversation about "Copos" culture and earliest BB datings in places where no exogenous population would ever be allowed to enter. At the door steppes of Leceia Fortress and over VNSP fighting ground.

    2 - Then about J. Desideri work in bell beakers. large and vast samples of Nm dental traits. And how those are a good proxy for Adna. again Desideri tells the same story of an Iberian origin of Bell beakers and how actually at least on the conveyor belt she analyzed, Iberia, South France, Switzerland they moved back an forth but not mixing with locals or even ever taking BB influences from the Germanic BBC. Local mixing only occurring in late neolithic & Chalcolithic north Iberia and in Bohemia to form the mix of BB/CWC that was the germanic BB with have samples for. But no. Nm dentral didnt tell the right story so was downplayed because it was not DNA.

    3 - Now we have a DNA paper that confirms by Mtdna the exact story Desideri with the added specifcity that actually DNA for those BB were actually from Portugal were we have the earliest dating for BB.

    So, full circle. 90% of what is considered valid Archaeological proofs do not have this much about it behind it. That is a fact to be reckon. That simple.
    where was this confirmation?

    in this french paper
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/i...82ge-du-Bronze

    or ????

    Maybe the style of pots came via iberia but I see no dna markers associating this migration from iberia to central europe................what markers that was in BB lands in central Europe were already there prior to BB arriving

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    @Moesan
    1 - I think we had a lenghtly conversation (I think it was you, if not sorry) about Bell beakers origin in Portugal near the Tagus river. Lengthly conversation about "Copos" culture and earliest BB datings in places where no exogenous population would ever be allowed to enter. At the door steppes of Leceia Fortress and over VNSP fighting ground.

    2 - Then about J. Desideri work in bell beakers. large and vast samples of Nm dental traits. And how those are a good proxy for Adna. again Desideri tells the same story of an Iberian origin of Bell beakers and how actually at least on the conveyor belt she analyzed, Iberia, South France, Switzerland they moved back an forth but not mixing with locals or even ever taking BB influences from the Germanic BBC. Local mixing only occurring in late neolithic & Chalcolithic north Iberia and in Bohemia to form the mix of BB/CWC that was the germanic BB with have samples for. But no. Nm dentral didnt tell the right story so was downplayed because it was not DNA.

    3 - Now we have a DNA paper that confirms by Mtdna the exact story Desideri with the added specifcity that actually DNA for those BB were actually from Portugal were we have the earliest dating for BB.

    So, full circle. 90% of what is considered valid Archaeological proofs do not have this much about it behind it. That is a fact to be reckon. That simple.

    Yes it was me!
    As said an other forumer I don't see any confirmation of your previous affirmations on the mt-DNA side (mtH as a marker of BBs introgression in Central Europe: today we see mt-H SEEMS having rather low in Iberia BBs); the iberian BB mt seems a bit different from Chalco end Bronze Iberia ones in proprotions + with a mt-U5a a bit surprising and a possibly African mt-L; as a whole; it could be the result of a wandering story for BBs, no?. I 'll acutely read again Desideri concerning Iberia and France/Switzerland/Hungary but I don't see any direct link with Portugal, only with Spanish Meseta in Desideri, if I red well and I could contest her interpretations, what does not disprove the Portuguese origin of the pottery. My question was not the geographical origin or first typical BB pottery but the far origin of its "authors" and the demic input these last ones AND their surely admixed descendants can have had upon the diverse subsequent territories of the so called BB culture(s?). A try to understand the cultral phenomenon, nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Not a real new but a "leak" already spread by DNA blogs. There was a talk in the Dorset County Museum by Volker Heyd the past week. It was announced so:



    Jean Manco attended the talk and did some questions, his resumé in Anthrogenica was:



    The words "challenge" and "problem" and the verbs "to make sense" and "he sticks" fit well for Yamnayists? Why Heyd must stick in a Yamnayan origin for Bell Beakers if archaeology is not providing reasons? by DNA results?
    I guess that Volker Heyd will show that Bell Beaker is a fusion of Iberian expansion which fuses with Corded Ware ('Yamna package') which causes an excel and a kind of hub. And also a back flow.

    That's the essence of his german lecture published in 2016, so recent.

    It was David from Eurogenes who already figured this out:
    "they simply suggest that the ancestors of German Beakers experienced a significant pulse of admixture from an Chalcolithic Iberian-like population."

    May be this will give a key for a solution to the old R1b roots and spread discussion. The most eastern zone of the Bell Beaker culture could be responsible for the influx of much of R1b to Western Europe.....The Beakers are most probably crucial in the creation of the modern population in large parts of Europe.

    See for the different Bell Beaker zones (only continental) the following map about the continental Bell Beaker from Janusz Czebreszuk e.a. Similar but different Bell Beakers in Europe (2014):

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    German beakers must have admixture if there was a demic spread and fusion with local Corded Ware. The interesting is to see if BB in France or Portugal display a Corded Ware origin also. The question of the reflux I can't see much strong, is just testimonial at the material level. Even I think it's a kind of "Dutch" revenge. The Bell Beaker was the first to have a real international trade and new cultural traits can travel also... and just as tobacco or tomatoes traveled to Europe without demic reflux the BB case could be similar.

    By the way the Yamnayists have not proven archaeological evidences linking Yamna and CW, or just I m not capable to verify them. I hope that their bets are not based on their old professors teachings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    It was David from Eurogenes who already figured this out:
    "they simply suggest that the ancestors of German Beakers experienced a significant pulse of admixture from an Chalcolithic Iberian-like population."
    http://sarkoboros.net/2015/01/bell-b...ate-neolithic/

    There is pretty solid evidence that R1b Beakers were in North Africa 3500 BC.

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    Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    German beakers must have admixture if there was a demic spread and fusion with local Corded Ware. The interesting is to see if BB in France or Portugal display a Corded Ware origin also. The question of the reflux I can't see much strong, is just testimonial at the material level. Even I think it's a kind of "Dutch" revenge. The Bell Beaker was the first to have a real international trade and new cultural traits can travel also... and just as tobacco or tomatoes traveled to Europe without demic reflux the BB case could be similar.

    By the way the Yamnayists have not proven archaeological evidences linking Yamna and CW, or just I m not capable to verify them. I hope that their bets are not based on their old professors teachings.
    One remark Heyd talks about reflux in terms of ideological package if this is genetically the case is indeed the question.


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    Last edited by Northener; 15-02-17 at 13:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    http://sarkoboros.net/2015/01/bell-b...ate-neolithic/

    There is pretty solid evidence that R1b Beakers were in North Africa 3500 BC.
    That would be existing news R1b S21 U106 straight away from North Africa?


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