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Thread: Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    One remark Heyd talks about reflux in terms of ideological package if this is genetically the case is indeed the question.


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    And which artifacts display such spread of ideas or religion ftom the steppes through the Corded Ware? I might read again but in his 2007 paper there is no proof, but some 85% bla bla bla.
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    And which artifacts display such spread of ideas or religion ftom the steppes through the Corded Ware? I might read again but in his 2007 paper there is no proof, but some 85% bla bla bla.
    None of today's religions existed then ................they would have a "religion" , they most likely prayed/worshipped God, .......she would have blessed them ............maybe you can find a reference in the hundreds of female deities artifacts discovered in Europe from those times on the internet somewhere.
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    Now speaking about BB religion I can't recall any figurine or symbol... as much as could get are the astronomical use in graves of such culture, but it could have a megalithic link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    http://sarkoboros.net/2015/01/bell-b...ate-neolithic/

    There is pretty solid evidence that R1b Beakers were in North Africa 3500 BC.
    There are two cemeteries on the Moroccan Atlantic coast dated roughly to the mid-4th and beginning of the 3rd Millennium BC. For these cemeteries pottery is characteristic with a bell beaker style stamp decoration (Camps-Fabrer 1966, pl. XLIII) that is identical with the later Bell Beaker ornament in the region of northern Morocco and in Europe. The cemetery at Skhirat – de Rouazi is located on southern outskirts of the Moroccan Capital Rabat. With 101 inhumation burial and total number of 132 pottery vessels (Fig. 3-5), it represents yet the richest site of the “pre-campaniforme” horizon in Morocco (Lancombe and Daugas 1988).

    The second site uncovered at El-Kiffen, southwest of [Casablanca], is an abri/cave cemetery. Here 43 pottery vessels were found together with inhumation burials. Not entirely reliable (TL) absolute dates set the interval 3350-2660 BC (Bailloud et al. 1964). The decoration (Fig. 6) that is characteristic for the Moroccan Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic (Camps-Fabrer 1966, pl. XLIII) has no analogy in the European Prehistory apart from the Bell Beaker Period.

    [. . .] The number of Maritime Beakers currently known from Morocco is limited (Harrison 1977, 41-42). There are only two sites in the coastal area of Northern Morocco represented by Maritime Beakers. They suggest the relations to the Tagus estuary region in Portugal: Kahf-Taht-el-Gar (Tarradell 1957-1958) and Gar-Kahal (Harrison and Gilman 1977, 91-104; Bokbot 2005, fig. 3). However, the current state of knowledge on Moroccan and Algerian Bell Beakers is rather limited.


    I don't know what precise dates to took from this abstract: for El Kiffen something around 3000 BC - for Skhirat it is a bit older (they give only a span of time) but the kind of pottery envolved in it is confuse to me. That said we know they were contacts SW Europe-NW Africa (and, if of some use, a presence of mt-H1 in NW Africa); but I think we need more before to jump onto any conclusion...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Why was Sile banned? He never started any malicious arguments, and presented good work, he was very dedicated and polite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    http://sarkoboros.net/2015/01/bell-b...ate-neolithic/

    There is pretty solid evidence that R1b Beakers were in North Africa 3500 BC.
    I found this quote (from the site Dispatches From Turtle Island) very striking:
    "This March paper in Cambridge's Antiquity will be a revisit of an important paper that appeared in Antiquity in 1974, "Origins of the Bell Beaker cultures" by Richard J. Harrison. Harrison proposed a model for the formation of the Bell Beaker culture . . . .
    To sum it up rather succinctly, Afro-Iberian Maritime Beakers electrocuted themselves in the domain of the Single Grave Culture of the Dutch Rhine. When the door of the tele-transport opens, a sort of hybrid steps out and then clobbers Europe and North Africa from this location. . . .
    Another paper will be penned by Kristain Kristainsen, probably concerning the origins of the Dutch Single Grave Culture. I'll assume that we will see a fluctuation in Steppe Ancestry from the beginning of the SGC where it spikes, and then its diminishing as the Bell Beaker culture begins to take hold.
    So now I'll speculate on what surprises may be in store that would truly be surprising. Surprising would be if they were able to isolate the two components at the earliest phase, like a PFB that was R1b-M269 and a MN-styled Maritime Iberian in the Lower Rhine at about the same time (or some weird combination).
    Overall, I think that despite the far-flung regions where they may have genomes, they might be looking hard at a fusion area in the vicinity of the Lower Rhine."

    I'am convinced that my aDNA exactly pinpointed in and from this region described above reveals some key figures about this.....
    But how!?

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    close to lower Rhine we had Long-Barrows/Western FBK fusion: at this stage without too much DNA data, we would have been an admixture not so far from the Gokhem FBK (or TRBK) people, western EEF with already a solid input of Mesol.HGs, so a mix evocating MN Iberians with surely some more extra northern input with a bit more HG influence in DNA, this time from South the Baltic and not pure, with maybe already first traces of the northern Steppes not sure) - physically, the so called 'long barrow type' (a mean homogenous enough where was found southern non-danubian and cromagnoid influences I think)) + 'brünnoid-cromagnoid' mixes, apparently with brachycephals among them ('borreby' tendancy) - It could be this pop the first CWC people found just before the "pure" BBs males from South came with their 'folkshaker' + some people (females among them) picked on the way? we know the first BBlike input of importance (Round Barrows) in the Isles (Wessex) shew a mix where dominated influences of their 'dinaric' types + 'borrebys' + 'corded' types - it's possible the females were more variated, with more 'FBK' and other females of more or less Atlantic remote ancestry - I don't think the females of Iberia were the majority even if some of them came along with the first "pure" BBs male elite -
    so before CWC and BB at auDNA level, the pop was already some mix close to Gokhem but with more HG of everykind, and globally rather "atlantic-oriented" - the CWC (corded types) did not mix to deeply with the West FBK of the Lower Rhine, I think, they kept away from the megalithers which preceded them and by the fact in the British BB model they were the minority according to Coon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I found this quote (from the site Dispatches From Turtle Island) very striking:
    "This March paper in Cambridge's Antiquity will be a revisit of an important paper that appeared in Antiquity in 1974, "Origins of the Bell Beaker cultures" by Richard J. Harrison. Harrison proposed a model for the formation of the Bell Beaker culture . . . .
    To sum it up rather succinctly, Afro-Iberian Maritime Beakers electrocuted themselves in the domain of the Single Grave Culture of the Dutch Rhine. When the door of the tele-transport opens, a sort of hybrid steps out and then clobbers Europe and North Africa from this location. . . .
    Another paper will be penned by Kristain Kristainsen, probably concerning the origins of the Dutch Single Grave Culture. I'll assume that we will see a fluctuation in Steppe Ancestry from the beginning of the SGC where it spikes, and then its diminishing as the Bell Beaker culture begins to take hold.
    So now I'll speculate on what surprises may be in store that would truly be surprising. Surprising would be if they were able to isolate the two components at the earliest phase, like a PFB that was R1b-M269 and a MN-styled Maritime Iberian in the Lower Rhine at about the same time (or some weird combination).
    Overall, I think that despite the far-flung regions where they may have genomes, they might be looking hard at a fusion area in the vicinity of the Lower Rhine."

    I'am convinced that my aDNA exactly pinpointed in and from this region described above reveals some key figures about this.....
    But how!?
    What is that PFB?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    close to lower Rhine we had Long-Barrows/Western FBK fusion: at this stage without too much DNA data, we would have been an admixture not so far from the Gokhem FBK (or TRBK) people, western EEF with already a solid input of Mesol.HGs, so a mix evocating MN Iberians with surely some more extra northern input with a bit more HG influence in DNA, this time from South the Baltic and not pure, with maybe already first traces of the northern Steppes not sure) - physically, the so called 'long barrow type' (a mean homogenous enough where was found southern non-danubian and cromagnoid influences I think)) + 'brünnoid-cromagnoid' mixes, apparently with brachycephals among them ('borreby' tendancy) - It could be this pop the first CWC people found just before the "pure" BBs males from South came with their 'folkshaker' + some people (females among them) picked on the way? we know the first BBlike input of importance (Round Barrows) in the Isles (Wessex) shew a mix where dominated influences of their 'dinaric' types + 'borrebys' + 'corded' types - it's possible the females were more variated, with more 'FBK' and other females of more or less Atlantic remote ancestry - I don't think the females of Iberia were the majority even if some of them came along with the first "pure" BBs male elite -
    so before CWC and BB at auDNA level, the pop was already some mix close to Gokhem but with more HG of everykind, and globally rather "atlantic-oriented" - the CWC (corded types) did not mix to deeply with the West FBK of the Lower Rhine, I think, they kept away from the megalithers which preceded them and by the fact in the British BB model they were the minority according to Coon.
    Moesan, as far as I know based on literature about the Bell Beakers from the Northern Nederlands, the Iberian Beakers, or Maritime Beakers, fused in some sort of way with Corded Ware to Bell Beakers. Even afterwards there were findings of Corded styles. In the same area there were also findings of the previous Funnelbeakers (even more than CW or BB). So the impression is not one of diverge.
    I recently read a work from Kurt Gerhardt about the anthropophysic conditions of the Bell Beaker (1976 from of Bell Beaker symposium in 1974). He confirms your statement about mixtures. And also about the basic difference between Aurignaciden (your Brunn) or the Cromagniden. But he stressed another phenomenon along the Bell Beakers namely the planocciput or in German Steilkopf. This effect occurred on the Aurignaciden as well as on the Crogmagniden (or mixture). (By the way I'am a very clear planocciputal Steilkopf ;)
    But het states that the roots of the plan occipital is more in the central/southeastern European area. More Vucedol...
    This creates questions about the roots of Bell Beaker planocciput. Was is Iberian? Was it Corded Ware/Yamna? Or more Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield (so partly Yamna, partly East Med)? The last one comes close to the opinion of Gerhardt but Tumulus is post Beaker...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    What is that PFB?
    Good question sorry not a clue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Moesan, as far as I know based on literature about the Bell Beakers from the Northern Nederlands, the Iberian Beakers, or Maritime Beakers, fused in some sort of way with Corded Ware to Bell Beakers. Even afterwards there were findings of Corded styles. In the same area there were also findings of the previous Funnelbeakers (even more than CW or BB). So the impression is not one of diverge.
    I recently read a work from Kurt Gerhardt about the anthropophysic conditions of the Bell Beaker (1976 from of Bell Beaker symposium in 1974). He confirms your statement about mixtures. And also about the basic difference between Aurignaciden (your Brunn) or the Cromagniden. But he stressed another phenomenon along the Bell Beakers namely the planocciput or in German Steilkopf. This effect occurred on the Aurignaciden as well as on the Crogmagniden (or mixture). (By the way I'am a very clear planocciputal Steilkopf ;)
    But het states that the roots of the plan occipital is more in the central/southeastern European area. More Vucedol...
    This creates questions about the roots of Bell Beaker planocciput. Was is Iberian? Was it Corded Ware/Yamna? Or more Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield (so partly Yamna, partly East Med)? The last one comes close to the opinion of Gerhardt but Tumulus is post Beaker...
    some personal points, trying to put order in this historic "mess" (I'm sorry for others forumers I keep a bit more on the physical phoenotypic aspects -
    - concerning archeology, the separation between CWC and FBK (where CWC did not seem the strongest side, r at least not an agressive side) in the Netherlands could have perdured some times before fading out: I've not enough data concerning the all span of time to say something sensitive here -
    - concerning flattened occiputs, artificiel or not, Coon was very affirmative for the South British first BBs: a mix closer to juxtaposition than to deep ancient crossings, numerous types very easy to distinguish, so not too much between types: kind of alliance more than an unified pop; and the planoccipital men was tall too, but their faces were slender, and the bone wall of their skulls was thinner than the so called borreby types which themselves had almost as high faces as them (for the most by a strong jaw and solid high chin) but very broader faces; so differences, whatever the basis of these types ('corded' left aside here) - the 'borreby' types, according to Coon in other texts, has a sort of flattening too, but more inclined, concerning only the 'lambda' and not a vertical all lambda-occiput flattening of 'dinarics' - he described these differences occurring among Montenegro/CrnaGora pops - the 'dinaric' thing is still a mystery to me - but a crossing between some kind(s) of 'mediterranean' + brachycephalized HGs pops could be a cause, along with others, and the Balkans or the Carpathians could a good bet for geography? the Cyprus BA people were not pure 'dinarics' but this element was very heavy among their mix; same causes but in an independant crossing, or same pop got down from Carpathians??? I remember the aspect of some today Tadjiks and the 'dinaric'+'borreby'like aspects (very European like) of some of them, and some 'dinaric'like skulls have been found among some Steppic places, so... ( I link Y-I2 pops to some 'dinaricization') - these regions between Steppes, Balkans and Anatolia/Caucasus have been so a crossroad in History...
    Central Europe saw 'dinaric'like pops in BBs times and after, I 've nothing about people of Vucedol, helas...but 'dinariclike' people were already around Denmark in the 3000 BC if what I red is true, and Coon thought this type descended into West Balkans from North, and not the contrary ?!? - SO Carpathians could be better guess for 'dinarics'???
    I've eaten my hen and not kept its guts to read in them! LOL.

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    Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    some personal points, trying to put order in this historic "mess" (I'm sorry for others forumers I keep a bit more on the physical phoenotypic aspects -
    - concerning archeology, the separation between CWC and FBK (where CWC did not seem the strongest side, r at least not an agressive side) in the Netherlands could have perdured some times before fading out: I've not enough data concerning the all span of time to say something sensitive here -
    - concerning flattened occiputs, artificiel or not, Coon was very affirmative for the South British first BBs: a mix closer to juxtaposition than to deep ancient crossings, numerous types very easy to distinguish, so not too much between types: kind of alliance more than an unified pop; and the planoccipital men was tall too, but their faces were slender, and the bone wall of their skulls was thinner than the so called borreby types which themselves had almost as high faces as them (for the most by a strong jaw and solid high chin) but very broader faces; so differences, whatever the basis of these types ('corded' left aside here) - the 'borreby' types, according to Coon in other texts, has a sort of flattening too, but more inclined, concerning only the 'lambda' and not a vertical all lambda-occiput flattening of 'dinarics' - he described these differences occurring among Montenegro/CrnaGora pops - the 'dinaric' thing is still a mystery to me - but a crossing between some kind(s) of 'mediterranean' + brachycephalized HGs pops could be a cause, along with others, and the Balkans or the Carpathians could a good bet for geography? the Cyprus BA people were not pure 'dinarics' but this element was very heavy among their mix; same causes but in an independant crossing, or same pop got down from Carpathians??? I remember the aspect of some today Tadjiks and the 'dinaric'+'borreby'like aspects (very European like) of some of them, and some 'dinaric'like skulls have been found among some Steppic places, so... ( I link Y-I2 pops to some 'dinaricization') - these regions between Steppes, Balkans and Anatolia/Caucasus have been so a crossroad in History...
    Central Europe saw 'dinaric'like pops in BBs times and after, I 've nothing about people of Vucedol, helas...but 'dinariclike' people were already around Denmark in the 3000 BC if what I red is true, and Coon thought this type descended into West Balkans from North, and not the contrary ?!? - SO Carpathians could be better guess for 'dinarics'???
    I've eaten my hen and not kept its guts to read in them! LOL.

    goede avond! güede owend!
    Goedemorgen
    Talking about the so called Borreby Gerhardt was in his contribution very convinced 'there is no unified Borreby cranial type!' Too heterogeneous. So according to him there, and he refers explicit to Coon, is also not a territorial spread of the Borreby.
    He also refers to 'a special position' or 'even special behavior' of BB men with a flat occipital. The men of the flat occupations got special gifts, according to Gerhardt. May be something religious? I guess a bit speculative.
    But in fact mine is not artificial Moesan....
    Carpathian spread looks like post Bell Beaker to me, more Unetice, Tumulus, Urnfield?



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    Last edited by Northener; 27-02-17 at 14:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    some personal points, trying to put order in this historic "mess" (I'm sorry for others forumers I keep a bit more on the physical phoenotypic aspects -
    - concerning archeology, the separation between CWC and FBK (where CWC did not seem the strongest side, r at least not an agressive side) in the Netherlands could have perdured some times before fading out: I've not enough data concerning the all span of time to say something sensitive here -
    - concerning flattened occiputs, artificiel or not, Coon was very affirmative for the South British first BBs: a mix closer to juxtaposition than to deep ancient crossings, numerous types very easy to distinguish, so not too much between types: kind of alliance more than an unified pop; and the planoccipital men was tall too, but their faces were slender, and the bone wall of their skulls was thinner than the so called borreby types which themselves had almost as high faces as them (for the most by a strong jaw and solid high chin) but very broader faces; so differences, whatever the basis of these types ('corded' left aside here) - the 'borreby' types, according to Coon in other texts, has a sort of flattening too, but more inclined, concerning only the 'lambda' and not a vertical all lambda-occiput flattening of 'dinarics' - he described these differences occurring among Montenegro/CrnaGora pops - the 'dinaric' thing is still a mystery to me - but a crossing between some kind(s) of 'mediterranean' + brachycephalized HGs pops could be a cause, along with others, and the Balkans or the Carpathians could a good bet for geography? the Cyprus BA people were not pure 'dinarics' but this element was very heavy among their mix; same causes but in an independant crossing, or same pop got down from Carpathians??? I remember the aspect of some today Tadjiks and the 'dinaric'+'borreby'like aspects (very European like) of some of them, and some 'dinaric'like skulls have been found among some Steppic places, so... ( I link Y-I2 pops to some 'dinaricization') - these regions between Steppes, Balkans and Anatolia/Caucasus have been so a crossroad in History...
    Central Europe saw 'dinaric'like pops in BBs times and after, I 've nothing about people of Vucedol, helas...but 'dinariclike' people were already around Denmark in the 3000 BC if what I red is true, and Coon thought this type descended into West Balkans from North, and not the contrary ?!? - SO Carpathians could be better guess for 'dinarics'???
    I've eaten my hen and not kept its guts to read in them! LOL.

    goede avond! güede owend!
    Reply on second thought.
    I don't like "racial qualifications" or stereotypes. But certain (more or less dominant) features may be can give a hint where people are rooted....


    This quote from Louwe Kooijmans, The Rhine/Meuse Delta (1974) is looking very crucial to me:
    "In the Early Bronze Age we find in the Adlerberg Culture a similar assortment of skull types as was formerly found in the Bell Beaker Culture. The new type, the planoccipital Steilkopf, is also present (though in small numbers) in other Early Bronze Age groups (particularly the Unetice Culture). The Molenaarsgraaf skeletons show a similar late presence of the typical Bell Beaker skull in the Netherlands.
    The Bell Beaker skull type contrasts strongly with that of the preceding Single Grave Culture .
    The important differences in cultural remains and grave ritual between Single Grave and Bell Beaker Culture are therefore accompanied by a clear anthropological change from a fairly homogeneous dolichomorphic people to a varied population with the (hyper)brachymorphic planoccipital Steilkopf as a leading element. The transition from Bell Beaker Culture to the Early Bronze Age cultures is very gradual in every respect. We must therefore consider the appearance of the Bell Beaker Culture as a real immigration: the penetration of entirely new population elements with their own material culture, just as centuries earlier the bearers of the Battle Axe Culture penetrated Central and Western Europe. In this connection Gerhardt made a number of interesting remarks about the constitution of the BB population. It consists of the fusion of a number of "races" without any clear intermixing. Of the men particularly the majority have the typical planoccipital Steilkopf, while the women are mainly responsible for the heterogeneous character of the whole. It looks as if a group of male foreigners frequently recruited women from an existing population."


    According to me this makes a few things clear:
    1. The Steilkopf didn't belong to the Corded Ware/Single Grave/Schnurkeramik. So not to the "North European Plain Yamna horizon".
    2. The Steilkopf did belong to the Eastern Bell Beaker/ Unetice (=Adlerberg!!!)/ Tumulus/Urnfield. So to the "Central European North Pontic Yamna horizon".
    3. The quote from Kooijmans in 1974 "It looks as if a group of male foreigners frequently recruited women from an existing population" equals the most recent Haak c.s. finding "there were some 10 men for every woman who participated in the Yamnaya migration".
    Kurt Gerhardt speculated in a symposium about the Bell Beaker in 1974 about He also to 'a special position' or 'even special behavior' of BB men with a flat occipital. The men of the flat occupations got special gifts, according to Gerhardt. May be something to do with religious/ruler rites? Has this caused some kind of natural selection?


    Thesis: was it the 'Central European Yamna horizon' which spread the partly R1b "Steilkopf" warrior ;) into N-W Europe!? But also was the Steppe influence already working in the Bell Beaker phase not only in the Eastern Bell Beaker group but also in the Rhenish (German) one!?

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    @Northerner
    'borreby': I took the Coon's terms, he did not discuss to deeply about the British BB 'borreby's but about the global differences of their skulls compared to the typical 'dinaric' types (for me, the importers of BB culture) spite they were all subbrachy or brachy - I made my thought about 'borreby' classification before to read any scientist work, by looking at some crania and modern people of North Europe: the Scandinavian crania I had were too different, and curiously, everyone, apart its brachycephaly, show the tendancies of previous dolichocephalic phyla of Paléo Europe concerning browridges, cranial profile, orbits, bizygomatics and bigonials; so I did with my amateur terms 'borrebyA' (cromalike) and 'borrebyB' (brünnlike) - but this distingo is not so neat in reality, because, before brachycephalization process, both pops had crossed (particularly in Germany) creating local means and pseudo-types (slightly modified perhaps, by local mutations, but I think these mutations on phenotypes are very rare, long spanned in time) - based upon description by Coon and others (but not pictutes helas!) I think the most of the 'borreby' part in British BBs was on the 'borrebyB' side (more 'brünn') -
    'borreby'A + B types can be found everywhere in Europe, but as a whole the concentration (modest enough all the way) is in Germany and West-Norway, in North-Slavic and Baltic and Finnish regions, with evident presence in the surroundings regions -I even know a Spanish cycler of Murcia who have e very good 'borrebyA' aspect.
    Concerning History, in West-Europe, these types seems coming to light only around the 3000 BC or a little bit before, at least in Denmark N-Germany under megaliths If I'm not wrong - but the types were found too among North and East Steppes BA tribes, at low levels; a possible bet would be the 'dinaric' type was born by the crossings of such types (A as well as B) with a high statured dolicho type ('mediter'?) yet to localize - so the 'dinaric' types were maybe already somewhat cousins to the 'borreby's but already crossed before reach North, maybe in the Carpathians; all bets as often in fora!

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    Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Northerner
    'borreby': I took the Coon's terms, he did not discuss to deeply about the British BB 'borreby's but about the global differences of their skulls compared to the typical 'dinaric' types (for me, the importers of BB culture) spite they were all subbrachy or brachy - I made my thought about 'borreby' classification before to read any scientist work, by looking at some crania and modern people of North Europe: the Scandinavian crania I had were too different, and curiously, everyone, apart its brachycephaly, show the tendancies of previous dolichocephalic phyla of Paléo Europe concerning browridges, cranial profile, orbits, bizygomatics and bigonials; so I did with my amateur terms 'borrebyA' (cromalike) and 'borrebyB' (brünnlike) - but this distingo is not so neat in reality, because, before brachycephalization process, both pops had crossed (particularly in Germany) creating local means and pseudo-types (slightly modified perhaps, by local mutations, but I think these mutations on phenotypes are very rare, long spanned in time) - based upon description by Coon and others (but not pictutes helas!) I think the most of the 'borreby' part in British BBs was on the 'borrebyB' side (more 'brünn') -
    'borreby'A + B types can be found everywhere in Europe, but as a whole the concentration (modest enough all the way) is in Germany and West-Norway, in North-Slavic and Baltic and Finnish regions, with evident presence in the surroundings regions -I even know a Spanish cycler of Murcia who have e very good 'borrebyA' aspect.
    Concerning History, in West-Europe, these types seems coming to light only around the 3000 BC or a little bit before, at least in Denmark N-Germany under megaliths If I'm not wrong - but the types were found too among North and East Steppes BA tribes, at low levels; a possible bet would be the 'dinaric' type was born by the crossings of such types (A as well as B) with a high statured dolicho type ('mediter'?) yet to localize - so the 'dinaric' types were maybe already somewhat cousins to the 'borreby's but already crossed before reach North, maybe in the Carpathians; all bets as often in fora!
    Thank you for your explanation Moesan!
    Especially the last remarks are keeping my busy because of my 'Steppe-Carpathian-Tumulus theory.' But maybe this can cause too much bias....


    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    After reading "The maternal genetic make-up of the Iberian Peninsula between the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age" of Szécsényi-Nagy, Roth, Brandt et al. just some interesting notes:

    At the mtDNA haplogroup level the EBA does not show new influences or population changes at the onset of the Iberian Bronze Age according to results from Fisher’s test and test of population continuity, when both the entire Peninsula and southeastern Iberia in particular were considered (Supplementary Table S7-8).
    OK so the mighty steppe warriors did some 3000 km without any woman, only looking the asses of their horses from the chariot...

    The Bell Beaker phenomenon was a decisive element in the Iberian Chalcolithic, lasting from the Late CHA to the EBA (2600 -1800 BCE)35,36. Our tests of population continuity and Fisher’s tests between Early and Late CHA periods supported population continuity between the two phases. ... None of investigated Chalcolithic individuals show ‘steppe ancestry’, as seen in contemporaneous Central European Corded Ware and Bell Beaker groups, suggesting that eastern influxes did not reach the Iberian Peninsula until later periods51
    The diversity of female linages in the Iberian communities continued even during the Chalcolithic, when populations became more homogenous, indicating higher mobility and admixture across different geographic regions. Even though the sample size available for Early Bronze Age populations is still limited, especially with regards to El Argar groups, we observe no substantial changes to the mitochondrial DNA pool until 1500 BCE. The expansion of groups from the eastern steppe50,96, which profoundly impacted Late Neolithic and EBA groups of Central and North Europe, cannot (yet) be seen in the contemporaneous population substrate of the Iberian Peninsula at the present level of genetic resolution
    The most recent samples in the study are just from 1500 BCE so the steppe ancestry in actual Spanish people might have arrived sometime after 1500 BC, most provably with the expansion of the Urnfield culture that provided the old Celtic languages of the Atlantic Iberian façade.

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    The leak appeared just a year ago.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I still think R1b will be found among the real Iberian BBs, but their remains were known to be sparse even in Coon's time.

    That might not ever be found out, but I at least will guess one thing here - they will never find Steppe L51 (or least P312)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I still think R1b will be found among the real Iberian BBs, but their remains were known to be sparse even in Coon's time.

    That might not ever be found out, but I at least will guess one thing here - they will never find Steppe L51 (or least P312)...
    why do you think so ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I still think R1b will be found among the real Iberian BBs, but their remains were known to be sparse even in Coon's time.
    Bell beakers in Portugal, Zambujal and VNSP region where a specific stock of people that we do not have adna. Not even close --- The Adna we have for that region/period is from people thrown into caves and bell beakers were definitely not.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    That might not ever be found out, but I at least will guess one thing here - they will never find Steppe L51 (or least P312)...
    Agree! – L51 was born either in Balkans (as Boian or Gulmenita) , or South of France, or in Portugal in VNSP/Zambujal bell beakers. - never in steppe. THe notion of Western Yamnaya L51 is a fantasy.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    why do you think so ?
    I'll repost my theory:

    "I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23)."

    Any points of contention are welcome. There's a few key reasons why I believe this over the Steppe origin of L51 though, just for example the fact that there doesn't seem to be any cultures to find L51 in, with the assumption that it would have left a trace in the present-day location of its mother culture, assuming a Steppe origin. L51 is pretty much entirely confined to Western Europe, and the Balkan expansion of Yamnaya seems so clearly linked to the present day distribution of Z2103. Moreover, a lot of the earliest subclades of L51 are in Sardinia of all places, which points to this maritime theory strongly.

    L51 could have picked up Steppe admix from Corded folk, but it could easily have had Steppe admix to start with. Low noise of Steppe admix has been found in the Iberian Chalcolithic, and in this theory the carriers of this admix would have likely expanded from the Balkans, where there has been (obviously ignoring the Danubian farmer samples) a Steppe presence for a long time. I personally believe that the Balkan-Black Sea region is the original breeding ground of R1b, meaning a large Steppe presence among non-farmer samples (who were clear imports from the Neolithic Middle East, bred like rabbits, and can be paid little attention in this hypothesis) is to be expected, and has been found already (as one example, a Greek Neolithic sample has been found that even clusters with individuals of Northern European Corded Ware origin - Neolithic!).

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    Whatever the case, we need new big papers urgently - it's been a while now and rehashing old material is getting a bit boring!

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    I have read it quickly and what I downloaded is no more valid in my PC - but it seems Koch or his friends carries a vague notion of "identity usurpation" (or culture adoption) concerning northern BB, what is what I think since a long time -
    Let's search an english traduction. I think it concerns this thread an others, in some part.

    do google www.academia.edu/.../Achos_o_ddwyn_hunaniaeth_Pobl_y_Bceri...

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    Maybe an abstract of already old papers?

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