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Thread: Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

    I don't know if you are aware of it but in Cerdanyola, just some 10 km from Barcelona city, there were 11 BB tested:

    http://www.cerdanyola.cat/webapps/we...rer_Paris.html

    Google translation Catalan / English:

    The analysis of samples of human remains from the site of the street culture bell Paris reveals that sex, mitochondrial DNA, the Y chromosome (in the male individuals), family relations, external physical features population affinities with other contemporary groups.

    The site of the culture bell Paris street is part of a larger project that will allow rebuild that culture. It is an international project in which participating institutions like Harvard Broad Institute of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History and the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF). The main objective of the project is to find out if this culture corresponds to a movement of people and ideas, ie if the various cultural elements that identify as bell spread through networks or other commercial or van be provided directly to groups of people with a specific genetic differentiable movement of indigenous peoples. To determine this we compare the samples found in different fields of culture bell and compared with samples of Neolithic populations above in each of the geographic areas considered. Presently genomic information of 67 individuals from the culture bell, which include samples from Portugal, England, France, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary and Spain, among which is the Hypogeum the street of Paris.

    The genetic study of human remains from the site analyzed Cerdanyola has yielded positive results in 11 samples and it has been determined sex, AND mitochondrial chromosome Y (in the male individuals), family relations, the physical characteristics and external population affinities with other contemporary groups. Two of the samples correspond to first-degree relatives of females (two sisters, mother and daughter ...). It has also been told, for example, that women do not tolerate lactose and another had brown eyes.
    There are also two papers in Catalan about the site (an hipogeum) that i will translate when i will have time...:

    www.raco.cat/index.php/CotaZero/article/download/67362/112953

    http://calaix.gencat.cat/bitstream/handle/10687/91663/2006_14.pdf?sequence=1

    Of course things will be settled down

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun
    Of course things will be settled down

    Judging from what Coon wrote, R1b should be there, but together with Megalithic Y-DNA (such as I2a, G2a, E1b, etc.). So Beaker Folks were mixed with Megalithic Folks in the area. But once they expanded out of Iberia (expansion out of Iberia is supported by Coon), they generally did not take Megalithic elements with them.

    Anyway, I hope that we will find at least one R1b among those 11 samples, not just Megalithic haplogroups. :)


    See pages 148-172, 184-189, 200, 254, 371, 396, 399, 504, 530, 535-541. Also Plates 6 and 36:


    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/20/i...e031695mbp.pdf


    https://archive.org/details/racesofeurope031695mbp


    These are pages of the book, not of the PDF file (148 book page = 164 / 875 PDF page).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Judging from what Carleton S. Coon wrote about Iberia during the Early Beaker period, R1b should be there, but together with Megalithic Y-DNA (such as for example I2a, G2a, E1b, etc.). So Beaker Folks lived together with Megalithic Folks in that area. And very likely, Beaker Folks were in minority, while populations of the earlier Megalithic stock were still numerically superior to them at that time. Thus I expect that R1b will be in minority among samples from Iberian early BB period. However, as Beaker Folks expanded out of Iberia to France and Germany (this theory - expansion out of Iberia - is supported by Coon) they generally did not take Megalithic Folks with them. That's when & where R1b became the majority.

    See pages 148-172, 184-189, 200, 254, 371, 396, 399, 504, 530, 535-541. Also Plates 6 and 36:

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/20/i...e031695mbp.pdf

    https://archive.org/details/racesofeurope031695mbp

    These are pages of the book, not of the PDF file (and 148 book page = 164 / 875 PDF page).

    ==========================

    There are currently 11 samples of Iberian Beaker Y-DNA in the lab, right? I guess at least 1 will be R1b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I don't know if you are aware of it but in Cerdanyola, just some 10 km from Barcelona city, there were 11 BB tested:

    http://www.cerdanyola.cat/webapps/we...rer_Paris.html

    Google translation Catalan / English:



    There are also two papers in Catalan about the site (an hipogeum) that i will translate when i will have time...:

    www.raco.cat/index.php/CotaZero/article/download/67362/112953

    http://calaix.gencat.cat/bitstream/handle/10687/91663/2006_14.pdf?sequence=1

    Of course things will be settled down

    It is one of the last big unresolved questions: Did Bell Beaker culture originate in Iberia? If so, did it spread with migration from Ibaria to Middle and Western Europe?

    Good to see this investigated. My guess for the last question is it didn't since the Irish Bell Beaker study showed that the MN populace of Ireland was related to present day Iberians whereas their BB successors showed clear German affinity. Actually, mostly west to the Global Amphora Culture area.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.abstract

    Last edited by epoch; 11-05-16 at 12:25.

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    when will the results be published?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    IMHO there's no R1b (M269) in iberian BB, but E1b1b, G2a and I2a. Let's see.
    BB in Kromsdorf was already indoeuropized by Yamnaya people.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The samples are not in the lab as they say that they have tested already adminxtures...
    It's logical that BA Irish point to a more Central European origin than Neolithic Irish as their BB stayed and came from Central Europe, but as far as radiocarbon dates BB is older in Portugal.

    campaniforme.jpg

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    Better than translating is a resumé, from "L’hipogeu calcolític del carrer de París (Cerdanyola del Vallès)" and "L’hipogeu calcolític del carrer París de Cerdanyola del Vallès":

    oval hypogeum, orientation east-west, usual megalithic burial (other regional types used were dolmens, hemidolmens and cists), no metalic findings, four inhumation strata here:

    2880-2560 cal BC: more than 36 persons inhumated without an stablished patron, but many were in lateral decubitus position with flexed legs; seven arrow points, some pots, and dentalia linked to a person

    the upper strate UE-13 had four individuals displaying no patron in position but all had attached Bell Beaker pots of diverse typology (maritime, epimaritime)

    the upper strate UE-2 had two inhumations in lateral decubitus (one in the left, other in the right) and pointing to the north

    the most recent strate UE-1 is from 2468-2270 cal BC, bones from at least two inhumations over a stone pavement, their grave goods were Bell Beaker pots of Pyrenean typology

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by anthropico View Post
    IMHO there's no R1b (M269) in iberian BB, but E1b1b, G2a and I2a. Let's see.
    BB in Kromsdorf was already indoeuropized by Yamnaya people.
    I agree. I would also add haplogroup J2 as a possibility. I had hypothesised that J2 metallurgists from Anatolia spread to the Balkans and southern Europe during the Copper Age. I know that many people disagree with me and prefer to see R1b-L23 as the original copper metallurgists because R1b-L23 is associated with bronze metallurgists and copper precedes bronze. However my theory hasn't changed since I formulated it in 2009. Copper, gold and silver metallurgy first developed in the Balkans and Anatolia, not in the Steppe or the North Caucasus. It is the migration or trade with people from the Balkans (Old Europe) that brought copper working to the Steppe, where locals perfected it to create bronze. So G2a, I2, J2, E1b1b, etc. developed copper metallurgy, but the migration of (presumably G2a3b1 and J2b) people from Old Europe to the Steppe before the Yamna period (Sredny Stog, Khvalysnk) prompted militaristic Steppe people to find a stronger alloy to make weapons instead of jewellery and utility goods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree. I would also add haplogroup J2 as a possibility. I had hypothesised that J2 metallurgists from Anatolia spread to the Balkans and southern Europe during the Copper Age. I know that many people disagree with me and prefer to see R1b-L23 as the original copper metallurgists because R1b-L23 is associated with bronze metallurgists and copper precedes bronze. However my theory hasn't changed since I formulated it in 2009. Copper, gold and silver metallurgy first developed in the Balkans and Anatolia, not in the Steppe or the North Caucasus. It is the migration or trade with people from the Balkans (Old Europe) that brought copper working to the Steppe, where locals perfected it to create bronze. So G2a, I2, J2, E1b1b, etc. developed copper metallurgy, but the migration of (presumably G2a3b1 and J2b) people from Old Europe to the Steppe before the Yamna period (Sredny Stog, Khvalysnk) prompted militaristic Steppe people to find a stronger alloy to make weapons instead of jewellery and utility goods.
    uptill today it is rather guesswork
    that is why the Y-DNA results will be very interesting

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree. I would also add haplogroup J2 as a possibility. I had hypothesised that J2 metallurgists from Anatolia spread to the Balkans and southern Europe during the Copper Age. I know that many people disagree with me and prefer to see R1b-L23 as the original copper metallurgists because R1b-L23 is associated with bronze metallurgists and copper precedes bronze. However my theory hasn't changed since I formulated it in 2009. Copper, gold and silver metallurgy first developed in the Balkans and Anatolia, not in the Steppe or the North Caucasus. It is the migration or trade with people from the Balkans (Old Europe) that brought copper working to the Steppe, where locals perfected it to create bronze. So G2a, I2, J2, E1b1b, etc. developed copper metallurgy, but the migration of (presumably G2a3b1 and J2b) people from Old Europe to the Steppe before the Yamna period (Sredny Stog, Khvalysnk) prompted militaristic Steppe people to find a stronger alloy to make weapons instead of jewellery and utility goods.
    Wrong. The type of bronze you are talking about is from the Iranian Plateau. Ancient Sumerians already had this knowledge. The bronze metallurgy was perfected in West Asia. And later introduced into the Steppes via the Maykop or the eastern side of the Caspian!

    Maykop kurgans predate Yamnaya kurgans.


    " Alexei Rezepkin - Recent discoveries

    Several important discoveries were made by Rezepkin in the course of his excavations. Among them what seems as the oldest sword in the world. This ancient bronze sword dates to around 3400 BC. It was found in a stone tomb near Novosvobodnaya, and is now on display in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg. It was discovered in Kurgan 31, tomb 5 at the burial site Klady, which is attributed to the Maikop culture. This burial belongs to local Phase 3 at Klady, corresponding to the last Phase 4 of the Maikop culture. It has a total length of 63 cm and a hilt length of 11 cm. The radiocarbon dates for Phase 3 at Klady are 3500-3342 (68% probability), and 3500-3128 (95% probability). Previously, the oldest swords were reported from Arslantepe, and they are dated soon after the Klady sword, or about a century later. "

    https://infopoint.co/en/Alexei%20Rez...%20discoveries

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm sure bronze weapons in Maykop kurgans came from Kurdistan Zagros Mountains (Iranian Plateau)

    Early fourth millennium bronze artifacts has been found in Zagros.





    http://www.jstor.org/stable/530550

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    BBs were not born from nowhere, I think. So, even if the first traces of well determined BBs are in Portugal or more largely Southwest Iberia, they had to be descendants of somebody, and we cannot be sure they were a local people continuity. Some surveys seem establishing they were in Southern Portugal a foreign (new?) element outside the Chalcolithic people settlements, before their artefacts incorporated the post-Chalcolithic societies.
    Their mtDNA was distinct enough from the Chalco mtDNA too. But we have very little about Western Iberia to date. Maybe this distinct mtDNA is only the Atlantic façade one? And does not reflect the parallele of BB male elites's y-DNA? All the way it seems the first BBs of Iberia buried their dead people among the collective sepultures of precedent populations, what is not the case for Central-North Europe later BBs.

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    Another "DNAleak" from Pedro Soares (Centro de Biologia Molecular e Ambiental - CBMA; Instituto para a Biossustentabilidade - IB-S; professor in Genética Molecular e Bioinformática (UMinho)

    In actual Portugal it was developed the Bell Beaker culture with enhaced comerce and technological development, and such new culture expanded towards Germany.
    The cause of the migration to Central Europe is unknown.
    The BB is linked to the wheel, the domestication of horse, so that afar sites were available to trade (per example ivory).

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    As the paper will not delay to appear in English, the Bell Beaker also had a checking three years ago from a mtDNA point of view in "Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans":

    From around 2800 BC, the LNE Bell Beaker culture emerged
    from the Iberian Peninsula to form one of the first pan-European
    archaeological complexes. This cultural phenomenon is recognised
    by a distinctive package of rich grave goods including the
    eponymous bell-shaped ceramic beakers. The genetic affinities
    between Central Europe’s Bell Beakers and present-day Iberian
    populations (Fig. 2) is striking and throws fresh light on longdisputed
    archaeological models3. We suggest these data indicate a
    considerable genetic influx from the West during the LNE.
    So that as the mainstream thinking is that IE Yamnayans lads from the steppes were peopling all Europe by then, it seems that such expansion was lacking chicks (or the local girls were not enough kind?) so that brunettes from Portugal were going eastwards to meet the requirements... maybe writing so in this ironicaly way will allow to some to hear the red alarms.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Lot of statements made by scientists very often at the mergins of their own speciality. I don't buy this kind of generalities before more insight.
    We lack precise between periods surveys. Archeology seems showing strong imput of Megalithic cultures into Southern Germany just before Chalcolithic or at its earlier stage, and the mt changes we see between Middle? Late? Neolithic (the ? have some weight) and Bronze, so spanning Chalcolithic, could be for a part the result of this megalithic expansion from Atlantic shores, along the Loire river eastwards, if my diverse readings have some value. And I red somewhere the BBs of Atlantic façade (or their pottery) took the same Loire way eastwards. I cannot state myself, I'm not archeologist...
    Physical Anthropology show a tangled situation between Catalunya and Southern France at Chalcolithic with perhaps more than a vague or place of origin of the newcomers, some of whose have 'dinaroid' forms among other forms. BBs and others, with sepultures reutilisations. + disorderly changes in distributions of these types as time passed except constant increase of "new mediterranean" types from Greece surroundings. People of this time spoke of "Helladic" influences, without more precision. But it seems metals have always been an impulse from East Mediterranea before attested I-Eans coming. Wheel and horse are interesting things, but were the steppic I-Eans the only ones to master them at those times. (I avow I did not the link between BBs and wheel, by ignorance?)
    I resume: not too clear, all that. Sorry. Only remnants analysis with well sampled people and their anDNA can help us. No bet of mine to date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It is one of the last big unresolved questions: Did Bell Beaker culture originate in Iberia?
    Of course it didn't.

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    In scientific debates it is good to give some refs... by the way it's only a mater of godwill to find dates and facts:

    BB origen map.jpg

    campaniforme.jpg

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    More data ready to appear:

    http://arqueologia.tte.cat/actes-i-j...insula-iberica

    In this case from a Bell Beaker burial in a cave [ON](typical Yamnayan burial) [mode Yamnayist OFF], Cova del Calvari, midway Barcelona to Valencia. Dated to 2800-2600 BC.
    Last edited by berun; 02-07-16 at 06:43.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Wrong. The type of bronze you are talking about is from the Iranian Plateau. Ancient Sumerians already had this knowledge. The bronze metallurgy was perfected in West Asia. And later introduced into the Steppes via the Maykop or the eastern side of the Caspian!

    Maykop kurgans predate Yamnaya kurgans.


    " Alexei Rezepkin - Recent discoveries

    Several important discoveries were made by Rezepkin in the course of his excavations. Among them what seems as the oldest sword in the world. This ancient bronze sword dates to around 3400 BC. It was found in a stone tomb near Novosvobodnaya, and is now on display in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg. It was discovered in Kurgan 31, tomb 5 at the burial site Klady, which is attributed to the Maikop culture. This burial belongs to local Phase 3 at Klady, corresponding to the last Phase 4 of the Maikop culture. It has a total length of 63 cm and a hilt length of 11 cm. The radiocarbon dates for Phase 3 at Klady are 3500-3342 (68% probability), and 3500-3128 (95% probability). Previously, the oldest swords were reported from Arslantepe, and they are dated soon after the Klady sword, or about a century later. "

    https://infopoint.co/en/Alexei%20Rez...%20discoveries


    Welcome back

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm sure bronze weapons in Maykop kurgans came from Kurdistan Zagros Mountains (Iranian Plateau)

    Early fourth millennium bronze artifacts has been found in Zagros.





    http://www.jstor.org/stable/530550
    I think we still need to analyze more Maykop and steppe samples bronze and copper samples. I know that on the steppe copper is coming from the Balkans first, then there is clear stylistic influences from the Caucuses by the time Yamnaya, which also coincides with steppe people beginning to mine copper from their own sources in the Urals. I think Bronze from Zagros makes perfect sense, but the Aegean is very early as well

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by anthropico View Post
    IMHO there's no R1b (M269) in iberian BB, but E1b1b, G2a and I2a. Let's see.
    BB in Kromsdorf was already indoeuropized by Yamnaya people.

    ??? Where did you red that? A guess? A bet? A shaman's dream? Have you red some newly published results? I doubt.
    Not to contradict you, but we need solid results of analysis. I'm not sure at all Y-R1b were the first BBs, but ?

  23. #23
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    In the paper "Mitochondrial DNA from El Mirador Cave (Atapuerca, Spain) Reveals the Heterogeneity of Chalcolithic Populations" the Iberian focus of the BB culture is even more finetuned:

    This site is contemporaneous to the Bell Beaker culture (BBC) but does not carry the diagnostic items of this culture that include the distinctive bell-shaped ceramics and weapons. In fact, the archaeological sites with Bell Beaker remains are very scarce in the Meseta Central of the Iberian Peninsula.
    The genetic signature of H haplogroups increased up to 48.3% during the Bell Beaker period with respect to previous European cultures, suggesting a population expansion from Iberia to Central Europe [21].
    The mtDNA composition of El Mirador is quite unique, and different to that found in other contemporaneous Bell Beaker populations and to present-day Iberians (Figure 2 and 3). This Chalcolithic population displays different mtDNA haplogroups that are currently present at higher frequency in the Near East populations than in continental Europe (e.g., X2, K, T2b); this could explain the clustering of El Mirador with Near Eastern populations in the PCA of modern populations (Figure 3).
    In this context, El Mirador mitochondrial composition may correspond to a previous genetic substratum with a substantial contribution of lineages from the Near East that was not influenced by the expansion of Iberian Bell Beakers, despite being in the same range. Under a chronological perspective (Figure S3) El Mirador supports the continuity of the previous Middle Neolithic genetic composition into the Chalcolithic, at least in non-Bell Beaker groups.
    In none of the analyses El Mirador sample shows close genetic affinities with a contemporaneous Bell Beaker population of 29 specimens gathered from three sites in Germany. The Bell Beaker mtDNA signal is characterized by high frequencies (around 50%) of H haplogroup that in El Mirador only reaches 26%.
    In figure 4 the Mirador people plots with other Central European Neolithic peoples, as expected from having a common origin in Anatolia, but the BB people plots very near to the NPO people (Neolithic Portugal), which had a 70% of H mtDNA...

    so what would be for the R1b question with that...?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    No Y-DNA so far?I want to see if Marija Gimbutas was right or not, since also most of Italy had BB.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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