Iberian Bell Beaker Y-DNA and mtDNA

I still think R1b will be found among the real Iberian BBs, but their remains were known to be sparse even in Coon's time.

Bell beakers in Portugal, Zambujal and VNSP region where a specific stock of people that we do not have adna. Not even close --- The Adna we have for that region/period is from people thrown into caves and bell beakers were definitely not.


That might not ever be found out, but I at least will guess one thing here - they will never find Steppe L51 (or least P312)...

Agree! – L51 was born either in Balkans (as Boian or Gulmenita) , or South of France, or in Portugal in VNSP/Zambujal bell beakers. - never in steppe. THe notion of Western Yamnaya L51 is a fantasy.
 
why do you think so ?

I'll repost my theory:

"I personally imagine pre-L51 and pre-Z2103 splitting somewhere in the Balkans, or maybe Anatolia, with pre-L51 travelling (perhaps by sea) to Iberia and pre-Z2103 spreading somewhat Eastwards across West Asia. L51, part of the Iberian BBs and amongst typical Megalithic folk, would then travel to Central Europe (acquiring some more Steppe-like mtDNA lineages from Corded Ware women along the way), before expanding throughout Western Europe as part of the Unetice cultural complex. Z2103 would have both remained in West Asia, but also moved up into the Steppe, and from those people Yamnaya would expand into the Balkans. This entire process would be at least at first associated with the spread of metal (L23)."

Any points of contention are welcome. There's a few key reasons why I believe this over the Steppe origin of L51 though, just for example the fact that there doesn't seem to be any cultures to find L51 in, with the assumption that it would have left a trace in the present-day location of its mother culture, assuming a Steppe origin. L51 is pretty much entirely confined to Western Europe, and the Balkan expansion of Yamnaya seems so clearly linked to the present day distribution of Z2103. Moreover, a lot of the earliest subclades of L51 are in Sardinia of all places, which points to this maritime theory strongly.

L51 could have picked up Steppe admix from Corded folk, but it could easily have had Steppe admix to start with. Low noise of Steppe admix has been found in the Iberian Chalcolithic, and in this theory the carriers of this admix would have likely expanded from the Balkans, where there has been (obviously ignoring the Danubian farmer samples) a Steppe presence for a long time. I personally believe that the Balkan-Black Sea region is the original breeding ground of R1b, meaning a large Steppe presence among non-farmer samples (who were clear imports from the Neolithic Middle East, bred like rabbits, and can be paid little attention in this hypothesis) is to be expected, and has been found already (as one example, a Greek Neolithic sample has been found that even clusters with individuals of Northern European Corded Ware origin - Neolithic!).
 
Whatever the case, we need new big papers urgently - it's been a while now and rehashing old material is getting a bit boring!
 
I have read it quickly and what I downloaded is no more valid in my PC - but it seems Koch or his friends carries a vague notion of "identity usurpation" (or culture adoption) concerning northern BB, what is what I think since a long time -
Let's search an english traduction. I think it concerns this thread an others, in some part.

do google www.academia.edu/.../Achos_o_ddwyn_hunaniaeth_Pobl_y_Bceri...
 
Maybe an abstract of already old papers?
 
Yes, Helas. Nothing new: spite it comes through Academia Edu, it's only a very short compilation for Welsh high-school - by Koch - of diverse works conclusions (Allentoft, Haak, Cassisy, Olalde, Desideri...) very similar to abstracts of some "scientific" newspapers.
The only thing is that it supports one of my hypothesis without too much details: a non-I-E origin of first BB's, a partial acculturation ("ideology" he said) of Central Europe* I-Eans with auDNA rich in 'steppic', before moves towards the Netherlands, Britain and Ireland around 2450 BC (order not discussed). This "ideology" did not change the old habits of patrilocal exogamy.
It adds Iberia became at least partly I-Ean after the first spread of genuine BB's out of it, and before the end of BA. He seems supporting some influences of the Irish BA through maritime routes around 900 BC (Burgess, O'Connor 2008). Never heard of that but I'm very weak concerning archeology.
Sorry for the wet firecarcker.
*: I suppose and I hope his 'Central Europe' is rather Southern Germany, Switzerland, Czechia and surroundings...
 

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