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Thread: Highly controversial theory about the spread of Indo-European languages

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    Highly controversial theory about the spread of Indo-European languages

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    Last edited by A. Papadimitriou; 18-05-16 at 00:10.

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    Regarding the Basques, I think there is actually a possibility that the original Basques were indeed R1b (R1b-DF27)
    and R1b-DF27 in modern Basques doesn't come from Celtic conquerers who came and eliminated the male populations and had children with Basque women. As we have recent information that R1b was found in the Paleolithic, so
    I don't see what's wrong with the idea.
    If male Basques today really are originally Celtic conquerers, then why would Spaniards and the Portuguese (who both have at least some definite Celtiberian roots and speak Latin-based languages) have much less R1b than the Basques? It seems like genetic drift occurred from Basques to other Iberians than the other way around.

    In regards to the Magyars, I don't think the original Magyars were R1a or R1b. Hungary's R1a and R1b percentages fit well with neighboring populations so that we see a sort of gradient going from population to population. Surely Slovakia, Romania, etc don't have the majority of their genes coming from steppe invaders from the 4th to 10th century and so on. The original Magyars were probably a very small ruling class who managed to take advantage of the chaos in Pannonia that occurred following the collapse of the Avar Khaganate. Steppe people seem to have a talent for being able to incorporate many diverse populations into their ethnos. The linguistic affinities between Hungarian and the Khanty-Mansi languages have already been well demonstrated, and there does seem to been a small genetic affinity between ethnicities too.
    By Eupedia's percentages, Hungary is only about 0.5% N, so I'll stick with that.
    I'll use a similar line of thinking in regards to other steppe people like the Bulgars, Cumans and Pechenegs and their impact on Eastern Europeans.

    In regards to the Etruscans and modern Tuscany, I think Maciamo postulated in other threads that either the Etruscans were a small ruling elite over Italic groups or that there were massive demographic changes during the Roman empire when many Gaulish slaves and immigrants came to northern Italy. Hence, we have a surplus of R1b.

    Sorry, I'll need a bit of time with the parts of this post. But I think some of this was discussed in other past threads (albeit quite old by now).

    First actual post! I find writing a bit hard.
    Shame I can't post links yet.

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    Language has nothing to do with genetics, and this is after genetic research quite clearly..

    Serbs, Croats, etc.. in our area have E1b V13 which does not come from Poland and today carriers of this haplotype in Croatia and wider speaking Slavic language..Very likely and carriers of R1b and J2 types...

    On Croatian islands there exist Slavic dialects that are less understandable to people on the mainland but both populations have same I2a types or the same common ancestor in southern Poland from where come together to Croatia..

    All this suggests that genes have own path and language other path...

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    Ok. I just propose that I2a-Din played a major role in the creation of 'Proto-Slav' language. I don't believe that R haplogroups were originally Indo-European. Of course that is controversial but that's the point.
    What if the homeland of the Proto-Slavs were Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia?

    Of course there's no direct relationship between language and genetics.

    E-V13 existed all over Balkans and they must have been quite advanced in many respects but that's a different story.

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    How can I2a play a role when does not come with Indo-Europians to Europe..?

    I2a and R1a types are mixed in the southern Poland and as one group as Slavs from there came to Balkan ...They come as Croats who later become Bosnians, Serbs, Montenegrins and possibly Slovenians and in the wider area carriers of I2a types with mutation S17250 turned into Bulgarians, Macedonians, Greeks, Albanians, etc.

    I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204 is White Croatian mutations from southern Poland, and from there she comes to Balkan and Eastern Europe..

    http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tr...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

    For R1a and other I2a types still I do not know source but for I2a mutation I-S17250 source is White Croatia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
    Last edited by hrvat22; 13-05-16 at 10:03.

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    But not everybody in the Balkans who is I2a1b must be I2a1b2a1a. Otherwise, what will be the original Balkan haplogroup? I know also that I2a1 is common in Sardinia, which is genetically distinct from the rest of Europe, and there it is very old. I2a1 is probably the oldest lineage in Europe. How would it have to come from Poland if it is so common in the Balkans? R1a is only common in Slovenia, the Croatian region of Slavonia, and the Serbian region of Vojvodina. These were probably the original Slavic invaders, and then the main I2a1 population became subjugated. Also, the most isolated region (Herzegovina) and the mountains of Montenegro are very high in I2. Look at the Eupedia maps of autosomal admixture- we have much less Eastern European admixture in Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Dalmatia where I is higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    But not everybody in the Balkans who is I2a1b must be I2a1b2a1a. Otherwise, what will be the original Balkan haplogroup? I know also that I2a1 is common in Sardinia, which is genetically distinct from the rest of Europe, and there it is very old. I2a1 is probably the oldest lineage in Europe. How would it have to come from Poland if it is so common in the Balkans? R1a is only common in Slovenia, the Croatian region of Slavonia, and the Serbian region of Vojvodina. These were probably the original Slavic invaders, and then the main I2a1 population became subjugated. Also, the most isolated region (Herzegovina) and the mountains of Montenegro are very high in I2. Look at the Eupedia maps of autosomal admixture- we have much less Eastern European admixture in Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Dalmatia where I is higher.
    I also think that Slavs were mostly R1a and I2a Dinaric is and was mostly local. Some I2a could have come from West Ukraine with Slavs though.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Probably. It is possible that Dinaric tribes migrated north and became absorbed by the people who became Slavs, and probably a unique subset of them. I consider Ken Nortvedt to be trustworthy with Haplogroup I scientific studies, like haplogroup predictors, but I'm not sure I can see him as credible about Slavic and Balkan history.

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