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Thread: Language of Sclavenes vs Language of Rus (De administrando imperio)

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    Language of Sclavenes vs Language of Rus (De administrando imperio)



    I was reading the following greek text yesterday
    http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...%20imperio.pdf

    A Wikipedia entry about it
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio

    It is a domestic and foreign policy manual written by an Eastern Roman Emperor in the tenth century.

    What's interesting from a linguistic point of view is that the author mentions some words used by Sclavenes who live in the land of Rus and some words used by Rus. The Sclavenes who live in the land of Rus are "πακτιώται αυτών", tributaries. It's not about the Sclavenes who live elsewhere. That should be clear.

    It's obvious that they speak different languages. I am quite sure that the language the Sclavenes speak is Slavic. I'll list the words mentioned.

    Rus Ουλβορσί /ulvor'si/
    Scl. Οστροβουνιπράχ /ostrovuni'prax/ (x is not 'ks' in IPA)
    Grk το νησίον του φραγμού
    = the island the dam

    Ιn Russian, Czech island=ostrov. In Bosnian, Serbian, Slovenian: island = ostrvo, dam= brana. So, it's obvious that the Sclavenes there speak a Slavic language. I don't know anything about the language of the Rus.

    The following words are mentioned also:
    Scl. Γελανδρί /
    ʝelan'ðri/
    Grk ήχος φραγμού
    = sound of dam

    That word sound have meant 'sound' imo.. I am thinking something about possible (Germanic) cognates but since I am not sure I won't say anything yet.

    Scl. Νεασήτ /nea'sit/
    Rus. Αειφόρ /ai'for/ or /aei'for/
    He says that it is named that way because pelikans make nests on the rocks of the dam (
    διότι φωλεύουσιν οἱ πελεκᾶνοι εἰς τὰ λιθάριατοῦ φραγμοῦ)

    "Neasit", of course, means 'nest'. We see that the Bosnian, Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Polish, Russian equivalents are "gnijezdo", "gnezdo", "gniazdo"

    Rus. Βαρουφόρος /Varu'foros/
    Scl. Βουλνηπράχ /Vulni'prax/ (again prax is closer to prah or prakh because x in IPA is not 'ks' as it is in English)
    He says that it is called that way because that dam consists of a big lake. (διότι μεγάλην λίμνην ἀποτελεῖ)

    I also have some possible cognates for this. But I'll also leave it for now. "Ni prax", though, should mean "of the dam". And the meaning that I propose is "filling of the dam".
    I have no idea about the word used by Rus, again.

    Rus. Λεάντι /Le'adi/
    Scl. Βερούτζη /Ve'rudzi/ (probably 'verudz' is closer to the actual word they used and the final -i is an hellenized form of the name)
    The meaning of this word should be something like "water outfall". The greek words used to descibe it are "βράσμα νεροῦ". 'Βράσιμο' today means boiling but 'ξεβράζω' means wash up.

    Rus. Στρουκουν /'Strukun/
    Scl. Nαπρεζή /Νapre'zi/
    And that is supposed to mean little dam "μικρὸς φραγμός"

    So I want to know is the language the Rus spoke Indo-European? And second of all, is it Germanic?
    Because the language of the Sclavenes gives the impression of being more (let's say) Germanic-influenced.
    But I don't know much for that so I'll wait for your input.
    Last edited by A. Papadimitriou; 18-05-16 at 20:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post

    Scl. Νεασήτ /nea'sit/
    Rus. Αειφόρ /ai'for/ or /aei'for/
    He says that it is named that way because pelikans make nests on the rocks of the dam (
    διότι φωλεύουσιν οἱ πελεκᾶνοι εἰς τὰ λιθάριατοῦ φραγμοῦ)

    "Neasit", of course, means 'nest'. We see that the Bosnian, Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Polish, Russian equivalents are "gnijezdo", "gnezdo", "gniazdo"
    In Polish "nieść" and Ukrainian "нести" means to lay eggs, presumably in the "Neasit". Or it was mistranslated and the author meant "to lay eggs" instead of "a nest".



    Rus. Βαρουφόρος /Varu'foros/
    Scl. Βουλνηπράχ /Vulni'prax/ (again prax is closer to prah or prakh because x in IPA is not 'ks' as it is in English)
    He says that it is called that way because that dam consists of a big lake. (διότι μεγάλην λίμνην ἀποτελεῖ)

    I also have some possible cognates for this. But I'll also leave it for now. "Ni prax", though, should mean "of the dam". And the meaning that I propose is "filling of the dam".
    I have no idea about the word used by Rus, again.

    Rus. Λεάντι /Le'anti/
    Scl. Βερούτζη /Ve'rudzi/ (probably 'verudz' is closer to the actual word they used and the final -i is an hellenized form of the name, it could have been 'vervod' / 'vorvod' imo but ignore this)
    The meaning of this word should be something like "water outfall". The greek words used to descibe it are "βράσμα νεροῦ". 'Βράσιμο' today means boiling but 'ξεβράζω' means wash up.

    Rus. Στρουκουν /'Strukun/
    Scl. Nαπρεζή /Νapre'zi/
    And that is supposed to mean little dam "μικρὸς φραγμός"

    So I want to know is the language the Rus spoke Indo-European? And second of all, is it Germanic?
    Because the language of the Sclavenes gives the impression of being more (let's say) Germanic-influenced.
    But I don't know much for that so I'll wait for your input.
    I can't make out Scl. words but they sound Slavic. Rus to me sounds germanic. Mind that I'm not a linguist. :)
    I asked few questions myself about who were Rus here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-who-were-they
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    'Nest' was my proposal. He just says "that it is named that way because pelikans make nests on the rocks of the dam". It could also mean 'lay eggs'. Makes sense.
    The words may have been slightly corrupted or hellenized, especially the endings in -i or -os, may not have been part of the original words.
    I am not a linguist either. I have studied something related and I am familiar with Ancient Greek and Latin. Not very much with Germanic and Slavic languages. I just used dictionaries, basically.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post

    Rus. Βαρουφόρος /Varu'foros/
    Scl. Βουλνηπράχ /Vulni'prax/ (again prax is closer to prah or prakh because x in IPA is not 'ks' as it is in English)
    He says that it is called that way because that dam consists of a big lake. (διότι μεγάλην λίμνην ἀποτελεῖ)
    "Vъlni" mean waves in water in probably most Slavic languages.
    "Prag" not prah is treshhold.
    So it is probably explained good-treshhold in water? or treshhold that hold the waves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I was reading the following greek text yesterday
    http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_...%20imperio.pdf

    A Wikipedia entry about it
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio

    It is a domestic and foreign policy manual written by an Eastern Roman Emperor in the tenth century.

    What's interesting from a linguistic point of view is that the author mentions some words used by Sclavenes who live in the land of Rus and some words used by Rus. The Sclavenes who live in the land of Rus are "πακτιώται αυτών", tributaries. It's not about the Sclavenes who live elsewhere. That should be clear.

    It's obvious that they speak different languages. I am quite sure that the language the Sclavenes speak is Slavic. I'll list the words mentioned.

    Rus Ουλβορσί /ulvor'si/
    Scl. Οστροβουνιπράχ /ostrovuni'prax/ (x is not 'ks' in IPA)
    Grk το νησίον του φραγμού
    = the island the dam


    Rus. Βαρουφόρος /Varu'foros/
    Scl. Βουλνηπράχ /Vulni'prax/ (again prax is closer to prah or prakh because x in IPA is not 'ks' as it is in English)
    He says that it is called that way because that dam consists of a big lake. (διότι μεγάλην λίμνην ἀποτελεῖ)
    "Vъlni" mean waves of water probably in all Slavic languages.
    "Prag" not prah is treshhold,groundsill-dam?
    "Ostrovni prag" -island treshhold,groundsill is right.
    "Vъlni prag" -treshhold for waves,dam perhaps?

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    The things you say make sense. But what about the language of Rus?

    Can someone help with the language of the Rus?

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    In this one:

    Scl. Nαπρεζή /Νapre'zi/ (= ~little dam)

    Since 'prag' = threshold, can we assume that "prezi" = prag + diminuitive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post

    Rus. Λεάντι /Le'adi/
    Scl. Βερούτζη /Ve'rudzi/ (probably 'verudz' is closer to the actual word they used and the final -i is an hellenized form of the name, it could have been 'vervod' / 'vorvod' imo but ignore this)
    The meaning of this word should be something like "water outfall". The greek words used to descibe it are "βράσμα νεροῦ". 'Βράσιμο' today means boiling but 'ξεβράζω' means wash up.
    Well "var" mean heat,boil
    "vir" is source,whirlpool also vȋr, vrȅlo, ìzvor, vȑlī,vrutok all mean "source of water"
    If the word is form out of two var and vod,the second "vod" meaning will be a path for the water.Like vodovod-water system,voda is water,vod=path,lead.
    So could have been var(boil,ferment?) or vir(whirlpool,source) second "vod" is path,then Virvod?
    βράσμα νεροῦ-meaning "boiling water"
    But you have Βερούτζη( Ve'rudz )could have been "Vrutok" meaning "wellsping"
    Vrućo=hot.

    Clearly this is Slavic language,note that i write in South-Slavic dialects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The things you say make sense. But what about the language of Rus?

    Can someone help with the language of the Rus?

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    In this one:

    Scl. Nαπρεζή /Νapre'zi/ (= ~little dam)

    Since 'prag' = threshold, can we assume that "prezi" = prag + diminuitive?
    "Na" could have be "on" no more then this "Na prag"- on treshhold,of course if the meaning of the first was "prag"
    "Prezi" small dam? who knows what letter was the "z" here heheh.
    This is just my opinion.

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    Did someone translated this words already,i mean linguist specialists?

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    I didn't search it.
    It seems that there is this one, at least. It's not about dams, but river rapids (?). (The greek word used literally means 'barrier', though and a similar word means dam)

    Dneproforsarnas namn I Kajsar Konstantin VII Porfyrogennetos' De Administrando Imperio

    The names of the Dnieper rapids in Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenite's on the administration of Empire

    Lund 1951, 304 pp. Swedish, SUM: German

    Origin of the names of seven Dnieper rapids mentioned on the 9th chapter of (...); the importance of these names to studies of 10th century Russia and the Viking period in Scandinavian countries; methodology used; the origin of the names traced to Swedish Vikings who settled in the Ukraine at the end of the 9th century.

    But how would I find that?

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    Ah, ok. There's this in Wikipedia, from this book H.R. Ellis Davidson, The Viking Road to Byzantium (Allen & Unwin, 1976), p. 83
    It's funny though, that he gave a Germanic etymology even to this one
    ʝelan'ðri which is supposed to be Slavic in the text (maybe because it was easy to find one, lol). The name /Esu'pi/ was used by both groups. I find some of these etymologies unconvincing but I' ll accept it, I guess.


    • Essoupi (Old Norse vesuppi, "do not sleep")
    • Oulvorsi (Old Norse holmfors, "island rapid")
    • Gelandri (Old Norse gjallandi, "yelling, loudly ringing")
    • Aeifor (Old Norse eiforr, "ever fierce")
    • Varouforos (Old Norse varufors, "cliff rapid" or barufors, "wave rapid")
    • Leanti (Old Norse leandi, "seething", or hlæjandi, "laughing")
    • Stroukoun (Old Norse strukum, "rapid current").


    For example, in order to accept that /ai'for/ = eiforr = ever fierce, we have to accept also that the comments of Contantine VII was only about the Slavic names but that's not improbable.
    (He says that it is named that way because pelikans make nests on the rocks there)

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Ah, ok. There's this in Wikipedia, from this book H.R. Ellis Davidson, The Viking Road to Byzantium (Allen & Unwin, 1976), p. 83
    It's funny though, that he gave a Germanic etymology even to this one
    ʝelan'ðri which is supposed to be Slavic in the text (maybe because it was easy to find one, lol). The name /Esu'pi/ was used by both groups. I find some of these etymologies unconvincing but I' ll accept it, I guess.


    • Essoupi (Old Norse vesuppi, "do not sleep")
    • Oulvorsi (Old Norse holmfors, "island rapid")
    • Gelandri (Old Norse gjallandi, "yelling, loudly ringing")
    • Aeifor (Old Norse eiforr, "ever fierce")
    • Varouforos (Old Norse varufors, "cliff rapid" or barufors, "wave rapid")
    • Leanti (Old Norse leandi, "seething", or hlæjandi, "laughing")
    • Stroukoun (Old Norse strukum, "rapid current").


    For example, in order to accept that /ai'for/ = eiforr = ever fierce, we have to accept also that the comments of Contantine VII was only about the Slavic names but that's not improbable.
    (He says that it is named that way because pelikans make nests on the rocks there)
    So did we translated good anything from this?
    So Constantine did not gave us their true meanings?

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    Interesting post, but something caught my attention.

    It's the word 'neasit', as the Albanian word for pelican is 'nosit'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Interesting post, but something caught my attention.

    It's the word 'neasit', as the Albanian word for pelican is 'nosit'.
    Serb, Croatian = nesit (pelican).

    In one newer American linguist study Albanian is the closest to Church Slavonic and Lithuanian.

    Albanians and Balto-Slavs lived somewhere close, it is possible somewhere in today's north Romania/South Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia.

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    Oulvorsi? Oulu in Finnish means "floodwater" and "fairway", passage that has enough depth to accommodate the draft of vessels.
    You have to note these words appear in Baltic Finnish as loans from Saami dialects borrowed in the region close to Karelia where Rus first appear in Ladoga.

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    Btw, "varsi" in Finnish, when related to water, is the bank of the river or some narrow body of water or river as a whole when combined to Oulu.
    This is actually the case in Finland, where you can find a lot of examples, dont know if anyone has ever investigated this coincidence.

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    The oulu family of words can be found in the river systems used in the iron ages, also related words with uralics in modern Russia.
    As they where used as the main routes for trade for a long period it is possible they where full of dams and channels built and operated to accomodate this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Serb, Croatian = nesit (pelican).

    In one newer American linguist study Albanian is the closest to Church Slavonic and Lithuanian.

    Albanians and Balto-Slavs lived somewhere close, it is possible somewhere in today's north Romania/South Ukraine/Eastern Slovakia.
    Well, that would be pretty much where the Indo-European languages started to spread from. Unless you were indirectly trying to prove that Albanians are not Illyrians but Dacians or mysterious Medieval newcomers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Well, that would be pretty much where the Indo-European languages started to spread from. Unless you were indirectly trying to prove that Albanians are not Illyrians but Dacians or mysterious Medieval newcomers.
    how about being that true?

    or a creole language?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    how about being that true?

    or a creole language?
    What could be true? Medieval mysterious nomads?

    Creole language huh? That's a good one.

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    From what I know, the ancient Sclavenes were categorized by the ancient Romans as a nomadic Scythian tribe. I have the photos documenting their schields, by the Romans themselves. Even the Darmatae were (interestingly) seen as either Scythians or Getae. The Alans are even included (But who knows?)

    There are no records of Slavic languages by the Romans until 6 AD. Here is a map of 1 AD outside of Roman civilization featuring the names of several non-Roman tribes. (most being reportedly Scythian)



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    Anything can be possible, reviewing this map. To the North as expected, you will see mostly Germanic tribes. In the Eastern portion you will notice mostly Scythians.

    Wikipedia says the Scordisci were Gauls (Celts)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    how about being that true?

    or a creole language?
    Origins of Albanians could be explained here-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Well, that would be pretty much where the Indo-European languages started to spread from. Unless you were indirectly trying to prove that Albanians are not Illyrians but Dacians or mysterious Medieval newcomers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Interesting post, but something caught my attention.

    It's the word 'neasit', as the Albanian word for pelican is 'nosit'.
    Nick,that looks like a Bulgarian hypothesis,supported by some Russian
    bikers.It gives us autochthony,but in a pretty unpleasant way.

    Google Search:Georgiev Albanian Daco-Moesian

    http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm

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