Language of Sclavenes vs Language of Rus (De administrando imperio)

From what I know, the ancient Sclavenes were categorized by the ancient Romans as a nomadic Scythian tribe. I have the photos documenting their schields, by the Romans themselves. Even the Darmatae were (interestingly) seen as either Scythians or Getae. The Alans are even included (But who knows?)

There are no records of Slavic languages by the Romans until 6 AD. Here is a map of 1 AD outside of Roman civilization featuring the names of several non-Roman tribes. (most being reportedly Scythian)


1.jpg
 
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Well, that would be pretty much where the Indo-European languages started to spread from. Unless you were indirectly trying to prove that Albanians are not Illyrians but Dacians or mysterious Medieval newcomers.

Interesting post, but something caught my attention.

It's the word 'neasit', as the Albanian word for pelican is 'nosit'.

Nick,that looks like a Bulgarian hypothesis,supported by some Russian
bikers.It gives us autochthony,but in a pretty unpleasant way.

Google Search:Georgiev Albanian Daco-Moesian

http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm
 
Nick,that looks like a Bulgarian hypothesis,supported by some Russian
bikers.It gives us autochthony,but in a pretty unpleasant way.

Google Search:Georgiev Albanian Daco-Moesian

http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm

I wouldn't mind giving consideration to a detailed and logical study, but I'm quite not satisfied by the results of Georgiev. I mean the guy claims Albanians are Dacians because they use Latin maritime words. With that logic you can discard the nativeness of the French, Spaniards, Portuguese, Romanians, and most of Italians, laiming they all come from Latium. Then u can go on and claim that every Germanic speaking people descends from the Swebi and so on.

Back on topic, I am interested to know as to what extend are the language of Rus (I mean the Slavic one) and that of the Sclavenes in Balkans alike? Was there any considerable difference even back then?
 
I wouldn't mind giving consideration to a detailed and logical study, but I'm quite not satisfied by the results of Georgiev. I mean the guy claims Albanians are Dacians because they use Latin maritime words. With that logic you can discard the nativeness of the French, Spaniards, Portuguese, Romanians, and most of Italians, laiming they all come from Latium. Then u can go on and claim that every Germanic speaking people descends from the Swebi and so on.

Back on topic, I am interested to know as to what extend are the language of Rus (I mean the Slavic one) and that of the Sclavenes in Balkans alike? Was there any considerable difference even back then?
Giorgiev may be wrong. Take a look back at my Paleo-Balkanic hypothesis. Maybe that is the overlooked explanation.
 
I wouldn't mind giving consideration to a detailed and logical study, but I'm quite not satisfied by the results of Georgiev. I mean the guy claims Albanians are Dacians because they use Latin maritime words. With that logic you can discard the nativeness of the French, Spaniards, Portuguese, Romanians, and most of Italians, laiming they all come from Latium. Then u can go on and claim that every Germanic speaking people descends from the Swebi and so on.

Back on topic, I am interested to know as to what extend are the language of Rus (I mean the Slavic one) and that of the Sclavenes in Balkans alike? Was there any considerable difference even back then?


The Thracian word for water was upe(reconstructed from Rhodope),it doesn't have a direct relation
with a Balto-Slavic root. OCS vapa remains isolated within the Slavic terms that refers to water,
suggesting a Baltic or Iranian influence on a certain(South) Slavic group.


Slavic voda/vada----Baltic/Iranian upe,ape,ap...---->OCS vapa


That's why Duridanov doesn't connect this word with the Thracian one.

http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_4a2.html

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h₂ep-

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/wódr̥

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/вапа#Old_Church_Slavonic
 
Well, that would be pretty much where the Indo-European languages started to spread from. Unless you were indirectly trying to prove that Albanians are not Illyrians but Dacians or mysterious Medieval newcomers.

Albanians were Free Dacians.

Probably Carpi and it is possible one more tribe, maybe Costoboci?

Albanians lived in Northern and Eastern Romania, parts of Moldova, Southern Western Ukraine, Eastern Slovakia and Southern Eastern Poland; mostly area of Carpathian mountains.
 
Albanians were Free Dacians.

Probably Carpi and it is possible one more tribe, maybe Costoboci?

Albanians lived in Northern and Eastern Romania, parts of Moldova, Southern Western Ukraine, Eastern Slovakia and Southern Eastern Poland; mostly area of Carpathian mountains.

The albanians could be part Bastanae as they lived in "free dacian" lands .....................80000 did migrate to eastern macedonia to help the macedonians in their wars against the illyrians
 
U r both willing to accept the theory of Dacians, Free Dacians, Bastarnae, etc., but u cant even accept an easier and more logical one than just local Central and Southern Balkan tribes? Albananophobia seems like a very blinding condition.

Could you tell me how did this Free Dacians end up in Herzegovina and Montenegro? Now before someone ends up giving an obviously ignorant answer, note that the Albanian language is split into several dialects that did not just give "birth" to one another with expansion but were developed simultaneously through the centuries forming almost distinct languages.

Im saying all these in case u plan to answer that they walked from Eastern Macedonia or wherever and started to massively assimilate Romance speaking mountain dwellers without even leaving a single trace of their original homeland's DNA (I2a), making these stubborn isolated mountain tribes look so easily assimilated. I mean it just took a walk by and the new language was spread like a virus.

On the other hand, nobody knows the differences between Balkan Slavic and Rus Slavic in the early years?

@Sile - Do u know what happened to those Bastarnae after all or u for u its enough that they just planned to settle there and that's it?
 
U r both willing to accept the theory of Dacians, Free Dacians, Bastarnae, etc., but u cant even accept an easier and more logical one than just local Central and Southern Balkan tribes? Albananophobia seems like a very blinding condition.

Could you tell me how did this Free Dacians end up in Herzegovina and Montenegro? Now before someone ends up giving an obviously ignorant answer, note that the Albanian language is split into several dialects that did not just give "birth" to one another with expansion but were developed simultaneously through the centuries forming almost distinct languages.

Im saying all these in case u plan to answer that they walked from Eastern Macedonia or wherever and started to massively assimilate Romance speaking mountain dwellers without even leaving a single trace of their original homeland's DNA (I2a), making these stubborn isolated mountain tribes look so easily assimilated. I mean it just took a walk by and the new language was spread like a virus.

On the other hand, nobody knows the differences between Balkan Slavic and Rus Slavic in the early years?

@Sile - Do u know what happened to those Bastarnae after all or u for u its enough that they just planned to settle there and that's it?

No, Nik.

Enver Hoxha had dream that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians, he put in service of his dream entire state science.

Scientists from different fields worked 40 years to prove his dream and they proved nothing.
...

There is scientific method, scientists suggest hypotheses and they test hypotheses using scientific method.

Hypotheses can be rejected, proven or modified.
...

The hypothesis that Albanians are descendants of Illyirians is at the beginning, after so many decades.

No evidence.
...

Propaganda is something different than science.
...

However, there are big evidence that Albanians lived somewhere in the North from today Albania, I gave territory which Albanians probably covered in this thread, #29.

Linguists have long ago noticed similarities Albanian with Lithuanian.

American scientists using rigorous mathematical methods proved that original Albainan words, non borrowed from other languages, are the closest to Old Church Slavonic and Lithuanian.

Why?

Because Balto-Slavic and Albanian had same Dacian-Thracian base.
...

You can find Albanian toponyms from Northern Eastern Romania and Moldavia to Southern Poland.

Albanian linguists know for it but they don't like to speak about it.

Even Polish linguists discovered that in Southern Poland spoken Albanian.

Carpathian mountains was territory where probably Albanians mostly lived, even parts of Tatra.

Some Romanian scientists claimed that Carpi were ancestors of Albanians. And it is so logical if we know territory where Carpi lived.

Carpi (Gheges) were Free Dacians.

Yes, there are indications that some another tribe of free Dacians were Albanians too, some scientists think that they were Costoboci, but there are other opinions.
...

When Carpi came to the Albania they found local population (Greeks, Vlachs, Slavs etc.).

Probably today's Albanians are Carpi + another Free Dacian tribe or tribes (ancestor of Tosks) + assimilated local population.
...

I can explain why I think that it could be that a lot of Greeks are assimilated.
 
U r both willing to accept the theory of Dacians, Free Dacians, Bastarnae, etc., but u cant even accept an easier and more logical one than just local Central and Southern Balkan tribes? Albananophobia seems like a very blinding condition.

Could you tell me how did this Free Dacians end up in Herzegovina and Montenegro? Now before someone ends up giving an obviously ignorant answer, note that the Albanian language is split into several dialects that did not just give "birth" to one another with expansion but were developed simultaneously through the centuries forming almost distinct languages.

Im saying all these in case u plan to answer that they walked from Eastern Macedonia or wherever and started to massively assimilate Romance speaking mountain dwellers without even leaving a single trace of their original homeland's DNA (I2a), making these stubborn isolated mountain tribes look so easily assimilated. I mean it just took a walk by and the new language was spread like a virus.

On the other hand, nobody knows the differences between Balkan Slavic and Rus Slavic in the early years?

@Sile - Do u know what happened to those Bastarnae after all or u for u its enough that they just planned to settle there and that's it?

There are only records of the bastanae coming from "free dacia" to help Persesus the Macedonian king............there is no record if they went back or not.

I have been studying the main Roman road from Durres to Constantinople and found no record of who the people where in Modern Albanaia at the time it was built ( and still used today ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Egnatia
There is no mention of albanians, illyrans or paeonians aiding the Romans in building this road, only epirotes are mentioned.

All I have is Durres was founded by Corinthian Greeks in ~627BC .

Around 231BC Agron king of the Ardiaei kingdom (illyrian tribe from modern Montenegro ) invaded Durres and other epirote and macedonian cities and captured it. The Romans then invaded and took these cities from the Ardiaei and killed Agron their king , but Agron wife Teuta continued the fight. Romans expelled Ardiaei -Illyrian garrisons from a number of Greek cities including Epidamnus ( Durres) , Apollonia,
The coast and hinterland south of the Drin river remained under Roman control since the Ardiaei Wars against Agron and Teuta.
 
Oulvorsi? Oulu in Finnish means "floodwater" and "fairway", passage that has enough depth to accommodate the draft of vessels.
You have to note these words appear in Baltic Finnish as loans from Saami dialects borrowed in the region close to Karelia where Rus first appear in Ladoga.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the correct etymology.
The people who are called 'Sclavenes' in the text speak Slavic. The 'Rus', supposedly 'Germanic'.
The scholar who made the proposals I posted shouldn't try to find Germanic etymologies for the words 'Essoupi' and 'Gelandri' (ʝelan'ðri) (in the text it doesn't say that these words were used by the 'Rus').

Also, they didn't transliterate the names correctly. My transliteration is 100% accurate.

Initially I thought that the words weren't Germanic but I don't know much about these languages and I posted the Germanic etymologies proposed when I found them.

The oulu family of words can be found in the river systems used in the iron ages, also related words with uralics in modern Russia.
As they where used as the main routes for trade for a long period it is possible they where full of dams and channels built and operated to accomodate this?
About 'dams'. In the (medieval) Greek text the word I thought meant 'dam' is 'φραγμός' which in modern Greek means 'obstacle' of any sort (also used figuratively). Τhe word 'φράγμα' in modern Greek is used for almost anything that blocks something and also with the meaning 'dam'. When I saw the word 'φραγμός' I thought the author was talking about dams of some short but that can be incorrect. I don't know currently what exactly was the exact medieval meaning of the word but it wasn't necessarily a dam.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if that was the correct etymology.
The people who are called 'Sclavenes' in the text speak Slavic. The 'Rus', supposedly 'Germanic'.
The scholar who made the proposals I posted shouldn't try to find Germanic etymologies for the words 'Essoupi' and 'Gelandri' (ʝelan'ðri) (in the text it doesn't say that these words were used by the 'Rus').

Also, they didn't transliterate the names correctly. My transliteration is 100% accurate.

Initially I thought that the words weren't Germanic but I don't know much about these languages and I posted the Germanic etymologies proposed when I found them.


About 'dams'. In the (medieval) Greek text the word I thought meant 'dam' is 'φραγμός' which in modern Greek means 'obstacle' of any sort (also used figuratively). Τhe word 'φράγμα' in modern Greek is used for almost anything that blocks something and also with the meaning 'dam'. When I saw the word 'φραγμός' I thought the author was talking about dams of some short but that can be incorrect. I don't know currently what exactly was the exact medieval meaning of the word but it wasn't necessarily a dam.

Very interesting, I did not even look at the other words yet that closely.
I dont doubt the Scandinavian presence in Russian river systems but the fact is that the Uralic nations controlled the entrances to all of them.
They had hillforts; gardariki, along all of them, there was not such military power in Scandinavia to move along or invade them with force.
There had to be some settled contract in place for them to enter these trade routes.
 
However, there are big evidence that Albanians lived somewhere in the North from today Albania, I gave territory which Albanians probably covered in this thread, #29.

Linguists have long ago noticed similarities Albanian with Lithuanian.

American scientists using rigorous mathematical methods proved that original Albainan words, non borrowed from other languages, are the closest to Old Church Slavonic and Lithuanian.

Why?

Because Balto-Slavic and Albanian had same Dacian-Thracian base.
...

You can find Albanian toponyms from Northern Eastern Romania and Moldavia to Southern Poland.

Albanian linguists know for it but they don't like to speak about it.

Even Polish linguists discovered that in Southern Poland spoken Albanian.

Carpathian mountains was territory where probably Albanians mostly lived, even parts of Tatra.

Some Romanian scientists claimed that Carpi were ancestors of Albanians. And it is so logical if we know territory where Carpi lived.

Carpi (Gheges) were Free Dacians.

Yes, there are indications that some another tribe of free Dacians were Albanians too, some scientists think that they were Costoboci, but there are other opinions.
...

When Carpi came to the Albania they found local population (Greeks, Vlachs, Slavs etc.).

Probably today's Albanians are Carpi + another Free Dacian tribe or tribes (ancestor of Tosks) + assimilated local population.
...

I can explain why I think that it could be that a lot of Greeks are assimilated.
Basically all ur speculation provides more evidence for Albanian being a Paleo-Balkanic language survivor bringing Illyrian and Thracian together as closely related languages or distant dialects of a Proto-Illyro-Thracian ancestor language, or even a hybrid of the two if u dont like the idea of Illyrian and Thracia being closely related. Thats the only thing that makes sense.

And can u explain to me how these Free Dacian folks were almost entirely E-V13, J2b and R1b from regions that these hg are a minority? Is it a coincidence that only the E-V13 and J2b minorities decided to move south, just like the coincidence of only I2a Slavs decided to take up the Dinaric mountains while the R1a chose to stay more in the Pannonian fields?

Amazing what human mind can create and fantasize when ur emotionally attached to a theory ur trying to disprove. Is all this because ur a Slav, therefore a "newcomer" (at least linguistically) and ur pride doesnt allow u to accept the fact that the people claiming Kosovo (Albanians) are in fact indigenous? U want ur neighbour to share the same fate as u, that of being marked as a newcomer?
 
Very interesting, I did not even look at the other words yet that closely.
I dont doubt the Scandinavian presence in Russian river systems but the fact is that the Uralic nations controlled the entrances to all of them.
They had hillforts; gardariki, along all of them, there was not such military power in Scandinavia to move along or invade them with force.
There had to be some settled contract in place for them to enter these trade routes.
Do you propose that Rurik or the "Rus" descent of Finnic tribes?
 
Basically all ur speculation provides more evidence for Albanian being a Paleo-Balkanic language survivor bringing Illyrian and Thracian together as closely related languages or distant dialects of a Proto-Illyro-Thracian ancestor language, or even a hybrid of the two if u dont like the idea of Illyrian and Thracia being closely related. Thats the only thing that makes sense.

And can u explain to me how these Free Dacian folks were almost entirely E-V13, J2b and R1b from regions that these hg are a minority? Is it a coincidence that only the E-V13 and J2b minorities decided to move south, just like the coincidence of only I2a Slavs decided to take up the Dinaric mountains while the R1a chose to stay more in the Pannonian fields?

Amazing what human mind can create and fantasize when ur emotionally attached to a theory ur trying to disprove. Is all this because ur a Slav, therefore a "newcomer" (at least linguistically) and ur pride doesnt allow u to accept the fact that the people claiming Kosovo (Albanians) are in fact indigenous? U want ur neighbour to share the same fate as u, that of being marked as a newcomer?
Po ç'merresh me të? Nuk e kupton se ça monstre është?
 
Do you propose that Rurik or the "Rus" descent of Finnic tribes?

Well we know Rurik was N1c and we know Rus included Finnic tribes and I dont have to propose anything because it was proposed hundreds of years ago.


The most influential proponent claiming that the founders of the early stage of Russia, including their leader Rurik, were ethnically Finnish has been the Empress Catherine the Great of Russia, a.k.a. Catherine II.

In her writings on the history of Russia, Catherine II placed the home of origin of the Varangians in the region between Ingria and Finland, i.e. in Karelia. Both Catherine and her husband Emperor Peter III of Russia were Rurikid descendants.

Catherine even wrote a play about Rurik, in which the dying Gostomysl instructs his followers to elect his daughters son, grandson of a Finnish prince, as their ruler.

It was also during the reign of Catherine II, that three editions were published of a short review of Russian history by Timofei Malgin, another advocate of the Finnish theory, and a work of similar persuasions by Ivan P. Yelagin, literary adviser to the Empress and the founder of Russian freemasonry.

Other proponents of the "Finnish theory" have included – but are not limited to – the following:

• Rurikid descendant and the author of the first full-scale Russian history Vasily Tatishchev • Rurikid prince and a historian Mikhail Shcherbatov • historian Viktor Paranin (1990) • historian Johan Adolf Lindström (has presented also a Goth-Varangian theory) • historian A. H. Snellman (Artturi Heikki Virkkunen) • historian Yrjö Koskinen • historian Jalmari Jaakkola • historian Matti Klinge • archaeologist Pirkko-Liisa Lehtosalo-Hilander • Professor of Finnish and Scandinavian archaeology Carl Fredrik Meinander.

Vasily Tatishchev was a prominent Russian statesman and ethnographer, best remembered as the author of the first full-scale Russian history. He is sometimes referred to as the "father of Russian history".

According to Vasily Tatishchev, the Rus' originated from the area of Finland and the Rus' were Finns. He based his knowledge primarily on the Ioachim Chronicle. The original chronicle was lost, and its contents are known through Tatishchev's "History of Russia" (История Российская).

Further support for Tatishchev`s Finnish theory was provided by the "Chronicon Finlandiae", written by an unknown author, published by Christian Nettelbladt in 1728.
 
Basically all ur speculation provides more evidence for Albanian being a Paleo-Balkanic language survivor bringing Illyrian and Thracian together as closely related languages or distant dialects of a Proto-Illyro-Thracian ancestor language, or even a hybrid of the two if u dont like the idea of Illyrian and Thracia being closely related. Thats the only thing that makes sense.

And can u explain to me how these Free Dacian folks were almost entirely E-V13, J2b and R1b from regions that these hg are a minority? Is it a coincidence that only the E-V13 and J2b minorities decided to move south, just like the coincidence of only I2a Slavs decided to take up the Dinaric mountains while the R1a chose to stay more in the Pannonian fields?

Amazing what human mind can create and fantasize when ur emotionally attached to a theory ur trying to disprove. Is all this because ur a Slav, therefore a "newcomer" (at least linguistically) and ur pride doesnt allow u to accept the fact that the people claiming Kosovo (Albanians) are in fact indigenous? U want ur neighbour to share the same fate as u, that of being marked as a newcomer?

No, you're not right, we can discuss it is no problem, problem is because critical thinking missing to accept things can be different.

You think that Albanian = Illyrian is undeniable truth, but it is wrong, it is unproven hypothesis which there is a very long time and it is not moved away from the start.

It is much closer to the truth that Illyrian blood is today in Slovenians, Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs, Greeks, Albanians, even Hungarians, but nobody can claim ancestry because Illyrians disappeared as political and cultural entity in 3-4 century.

And mainly the past is mess, there is no strictly black or white.

Who was before or after, you can be very stunned because scientists are finding YDNA and mtDNA from different epochs in past and cubes are starting to fit.

But it is not main question.

Main question is why Albanians generally don't want to accept different scenarios, why Romanian, or Polish, or Slovenian etc. scientists should research your roots, your researchers should do.

Autochthonous? This is nonsense. Populations in past are different than today, populations are same only in some isolated area such as Papua New Guinea.

...
I will open the thread about American study which proved that original (non borrowed) Albanian words are the closest to the Old Church Slavonic and Lithuanian.

About Paleo Balkan languages there are a lot of hypothesis and unfortunately nothing proved, much more speculations.

For example Pelasgian language is subject of many disputes, although there is slight tendency in opinions that it can be any form of Proto-Kartvelian.

For Paleo-Balkan languages, if this term is suitable, it is important what we can see in science, which theory will win, Steppe or Anatholian.

But science according today's knowledge Armenian theory consider plausible, and Balkan theory is non plausible.

We will see new discoveries.

On basis of present knowledge someone can start to build assumptions but some information miss of the YDNA, mtDNA of some important sites in the past.
...

Carpi was courage people, they fought against Roman empire, should be proud.
 

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