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Thread: Back migration from Paleolithic Europe to Africa through Basal mtDna U6

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Back migration from Paleolithic Europe to Africa through Basal mtDna U6

    Bix has alerted us to a new paper on ancient mtDna: U6
    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep25501

    The mitogenome of a 35,000-year-old Homo sapiens from Europe supports a Palaeolithic back-migration to Africa

    Hervella et al:

    "After the dispersal of modern humans (Homo sapiens)Out of Africa, hominins with a similar morphology to that of present-day humans initiated the gradual demographic expansion into Eurasia. The mitogenome (33-fold coverage) of the Peştera Muierii 1 individual (PM1) from Romania (35 ky cal BP) we present in this article corresponds fully to Homo sapiens, whilst exhibiting a mosaic of morphological features related to both modern humans and Neandertals. We have identified the PM1 mitogenome as a basal haplogroup U6*, not previously found in any ancient or present-day humans. The derived U6 haplotypes are predominantly found in present-day North-Western African populations. Concomitantly, those found in Europe have been attributed to recent gene-flow from North Africa. The presence of the basal haplogroup U6* in South East Europe (Romania) at 35 ky BP confirms a Eurasian origin of the U6 mitochondrial lineage. Consequently, we propose that the PM1 lineage is an offshoot to South East Europe that can be traced to the Early Upper Paleolithic back migration from Western Asia to North Africa, during which the U6 lineage diversified, until the emergence of the present-day U6 African lineages."

    Moral of the story: ancient people moved around. :)



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    From Fu et al. 2016

    Cioclovina1, Kostenki12 and Muierii2 are closer to Kostenki14 or Vestonice16 than to other pre-Neolithic Europeans (especially the early branching GoyetQ116-1), consistent with the results in Supplementary Information section 5.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I've been suspecting for several years that mtDNA U is THE SOLE maternal lineage of the West Eurasian clade, and therefore NorthWest African U6 ultimately derives from populations like the ones who lived in Paleolithic Europe. U6 is very old and was running all over the place by 35,000 years ago, and the U6s that went to Africa were the only ones who were succesful. Paleo European U is full of dead basal forms of U, so it is no surprise to find a U6* along with U2*s and U*s and U2'3'4'7'8'9*s.

    Anyways, who would be stupid enough to believe North Africans are 100% African? We don't need ancient DNA to prove their U6 is from Eurasia. I mean c'mon now.

    Back to my point about mtDNA U being the only "West Eurasian" mtDNA. That's hard to believe but is probably the truth. We don't know exactly what the Basal Eurasian signal is yet. It could be a mixture of African and an unknwon type of Crown Eurasian. In some models, modern and ancient Middle Easterners can be fit as over 50% non-West Eurasian, and mostly another type of Crown Eurasian that isn't Eastern or Western. Their non-West Eurasian ancestors are probably the source of mtDNAs R0, JT, X, N2, and N1.

    If you look at ancient(EEF, CHG) and modern Middle Eastern mtDNA you see a big chunk of mtDNA U(largely represented by K aka U8b2). The rest of their mtDNA is probably of non-West Eurasian origin, like Basal Eurasian or an unknown type of Crown Eurasian. Modern mtDNA frequencies don't represent overall ancestry. So, while Europeans are mostly "West Eurasian", 70% of their mtDNA probably isn't.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post

    We don't know exactly what the Basal Eurasian signal is yet. It could be a mixture of African and an unknwon type of Crown Eurasian. In some models, modern and ancient Middle Easterners can be fit as over 50% non-West Eurasian, and mostly another type of Crown Eurasian that isn't Eastern or Western. Their non-West Eurasian ancestors are probably the source of mtDNAs R0, JT, X, N2, and N1.

    If you look at ancient(EEF, CHG) and modern Middle Eastern mtDNA you see a big chunk of mtDNA U(largely represented by K aka U8b2). The rest of their mtDNA is probably of non-West Eurasian origin, like Basal Eurasian or an unknown type of Crown Eurasian. Modern mtDNA frequencies don't represent overall ancestry. So, while Europeans are mostly "West Eurasian", 70% of their mtDNA probably isn't.
    No, we don't. We don't have any idea as to the probability of any of your other claims either. It's sheer speculation which may prove as completely false as many other sheer speculations posted here.

    The "models" which so absorb some people can totally change depending on the populations that are fed into the algorithm. Some people acknowledge that apparently, and some don't.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bix View Post
    From Fu et al. 2016

    Cioclovina1, Kostenki12 and Muierii2 are closer to Kostenki14 or Vestonice16 than to other pre-Neolithic Europeans (especially the early branching GoyetQ116-1), consistent with the results in Supplementary Information section 5.
    I found this particularly interesting too...

    "exhibiting a mosaic of morphological features related to both modern humans and Neandertals.".


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    And I wonder maybe one way to cut down on that Neanderthal ancestry is to mix and mingle with folks who have less of it, say south of the Mediterranean. It wouldn't have to be there, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, we don't. We don't have any idea as to the probability of any of your other claims either. It's sheer speculation which may prove as completely false as many other sheer speculations posted here.

    The "models" which so absorb some people can totally change depending on the populations that are fed into the algorithm. Some people acknowledge that apparently, and some don't.
    There is evidence for my claims......

    We have over 100 mtDNA samples from pre-Neolithic Europe. All of them, except for a few Ms and R1bs, have mtDNA U. All the way back to Kostinki. Modern West Eurasians look like a mix of Pre-Neolithic Europeans and unknown types of Eurasian(whether they be Basal, Crown whatever) in autosomal DNA. We see a high amount of mtDNA U and Y DNA IJ and R(but not C1) in modern West Eurasians, along with other Eurasian lineages and possible African Y DNA(E1b).

    So, in mtDNA and Y DNA modern West Eurasians look like a mix of Paleo Europeans and unknown types of Eurasians. Considering about 100/100 Paleo Euroepans belonged to mtDNA, it isn't crazy to say all non-U mtDNA in modern West Eurasia is descended from those unknown types of Eurasian. Even MA1 had mtDNA U*. Being dominated by mtDNA U isn't a WHG thing, everyone apart of the huge and diverse "West Eurasian" family was dominated by a diverse array of U clades going back 38,000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The "models" which so absorb some people can totally change depending on the populations that are fed into the algorithm. Some people acknowledge that apparently, and some don't.
    There's no reason to quote the word model except to express sarcasm. They're models there's no reason to quote them because that's literally what they are. I understand very well how these models work and have reason to trust them. I know it depends on what it is fed to the algorithm. I know there are many possibilities.

    All we know for sure is that modern West Eurasians(Euros included because of EEF/CHG ancestry, but originally this was West Asian-exclusive) are a mixture of at least 2 Eurasian clades that split from each other over 50,000 years ago. It doesn't matter what you feed the algorithm, that'll be the outcome. It looks like either Paleo Europeans are a mixture of Middle Easterners and something East Asian related or Middle Easterners are a mixture of Paleo Europeans and Basal Eurasian(and also maybe African, Crown Eurasian).

    The model of Middle Easterners being Paleo European+Other type of Eurasian makes more sense because we see mtDNA UK and Y DNA IJ in the Middle East but don't see mtDNA R0/JT/etc and Y DNA G/E1b in Paleo Europe. mtDNA/Y DNA wise Middle Easterners literally look like a mix of Paleo European's cousins and unknown types of Eurasian. This is also why I think mtDNA U was the sole lineage of the "West Eurasian" clade of humanity.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Fire-Haired,

    I didn't take exception to your comments about the pre-dominance of mtDna "U" among Paleo-Europeans, so I have no idea why you're going on about it. In fact, I've been arguing that mtDna "H" is probably not a Paleolithic lineage and that it is probably only mtDna "U" for three years or more on this very Board. You probably never heard the old phrase "Don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.", so I'll translate. Don't presume to lecture to people about ideas they've proposed since you were in Middle School. Of course, I don't presume to have a time machine or to be a psychic, so I leave open the possibility that I'm wrong.

    It helps if you respond to what is actually quoted. I was referring primarily to this, in reference to "Basal Eurasian":

    "It could be a mixture of African and an unknwon type of Crown Eurasian. In some models, modern and ancient Middle Easterners can be fit as over 50% non-West Eurasian, and mostly another type of Crown Eurasian that isn't Eastern or Western. "

    We don't understand the nature of "Basal Eurasian" since we have no ancient genome for it. All those "trees", and yes I've seen and understood them all, can change as new samples become available. Stop treating them as if they're holy writ. These "experiments" are just that: experiments. Every time I turn around there's a NEW MODEL which is supposed to be the end all and be all and explains everything. To use your "voice", "It's getting annoying." If you know that there's so much uncertainty about which populations to plug into the algorithms, and where they should be placed, and that as a result the "models" are all over the place, stop presenting each new one as if you guys are bringing the engraved slabs down from the mountain like Moses.

    You probably have no interest in my advice, but I'll give it anyway. Take your cues from the people in the major labs who are working in the field and show some prudence and some humility. You're learning the wrong lessons in terms of your approach.

    That's all I'll say on the subject.

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    @Angela,

    Sorry I thought you were questioning the mtDNA U thing.

    I understand your doubt about the models. I don't treat any of them as the end all and be all. I have the same cautious view you do. I do have interest in your advice. The difference is I'm the person creating them or diligently watching their creation, and so I trust them. Sometimes results vary and some results I take with a grain of salt. However the vast majority of the models say the exact same thing. Because I have doubt in a model doesn't mean I'm not going to post it or that I will criticize it.

    When it comes to Basal Eurasian. Paleo Europeans can be fit as 40% Basal East Asian and Middle Easterners can be fit as 40% Basal Eurasian. Basal Eurasian can also be replaced by over 50%(Crown Eurasian+Minor African). Whatever reality is, we can be very confident that modern and ancient West Eurasians are a mixture of at least two differnt types of Eurasians.

    With the methods I'm currently using we could have learned what Yamnaya was before we got any Yamnaya genomes. All the method needs is Middle Neolithic and modern genomes. Also, if the only ancient genomes we had were Yamnaya and Timber Grave, this method would be to detect that a Sardinian-like people mixed with Yamnaya to create Timber Grave, which would have been a big surprise back in 2009(Like Otzis Sardinian-affinity was). Now I'm using this method to fill in wholes ancient DNA hasn't yet.

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    mtDNA M1 and U6 are supposed to represent backmigrations to Africa
    the corresponding Y-DNA has not been identified, I suspect they are extinct
    the Y-DNA in North Africa is very young, dominated by E-M81 whose TMRCA is a mere 2100 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Angela,

    Sorry I thought you were questioning the mtDNA U thing.

    I understand your doubt about the models. I don't treat any of them as the end all and be all. I have the same cautious view you do. I do have interest in your advice. The difference is I'm the person creating them or diligently watching their creation, and so I trust them. Sometimes results vary and some results I take with a grain of salt. However the vast majority of the models say the exact same thing. Because I have doubt in a model doesn't mean I'm not going to post it or that I will criticize it.

    When it comes to Basal Eurasian. Paleo Europeans can be fit as 40% Basal East Asian and Middle Easterners can be fit as 40% Basal Eurasian. Basal Eurasian can also be replaced by over 50%(Crown Eurasian+Minor African). Whatever reality is, we can be very confident that modern and ancient West Eurasians are a mixture of at least two differnt types of Eurasians.

    With the methods I'm currently using we could have learned what Yamnaya was before we got any Yamnaya genomes. All the method needs is Middle Neolithic and modern genomes. Also, if the only ancient genomes we had were Yamnaya and Timber Grave, this method would be to detect that a Sardinian-like people mixed with Yamnaya to create Timber Grave, which would have been a big surprise back in 2009(Like Otzis Sardinian-affinity was). Now I'm using this method to fill in wholes ancient DNA hasn't yet.
    If you'd actually read my post you would have known I wasn't saying anything about mtDna. It also helps to actually read the papers which explain the programs being used.

    You're using programs created by other people, in this case geneticists-statisticians at major universities, and then just randomly plugging populations into algorithms you imperfectly understand until you get something that you think "looks right", which usually means whatever fits your pre-conceived ideas. Even worse, you change the program without any understanding that this could lead to totally incorrect results. It's like the difference between the scientist who designs jet propelled engines and the line engineer. The difference is that the line engineer understands his place in the order of things and you don't. This is grandiose thinking, not reasoned analysis.

    Goodness knows I try to avoid pointing out to people the mistaken predictions they've made. Very obnoxious in amateur forums, but have you no memory of how many times you've made pronouncements to the effect that this is the answer, that this is the model, even just about Basal Eurasian? Do you think this enhances credibility? I will tell you what I told someone else who posted here making god-like pronouncements: you've been wrong so many times that it would almost fill a city phone directory. You may not remember all of them, but others do. As to this latest answer, perhaps you've stumbled onto something that in some way reflects reality. What does it prove?

    As for West Eurasians being a mix of more ancient groups, is that supposed to be news? Are you going to claim credit for discovering that the earth revolves around the sun next? Do you think you're the first person to think that perhaps Basal Eurasian is a mix of an ancient West Eurasian clade with some minor SSA? Dienekes proposed that as a possibility years ago.

    Before you go trumpeting that you've discovered the equivalent of the theory of relativity, do some research and do some reading.

    In case I didn't make it sufficiently clear, these kinds of posts are extremely annoying. Cut it out or you're going to be talking in an echo chamber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    mtDNA M1 and U6 are supposed to represent backmigrations to Africa
    the corresponding Y-DNA has not been identified, I suspect they are extinct
    the Y-DNA in North Africa is very young, dominated by E-M81 whose TMRCA is a mere 2100 years
    Extinct forms of "I" or "IJ"?

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    Moral of the story: ancient people moved around. :)
    Yeah, especially with the glaciation imo
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you'd actually read my post you would have known I wasn't saying anything about mtDna.
    Didn't I just apologize for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're using programs created by other people, in this case geneticists-statisticians at major universities, and then just randomly plugging populations into algorithms you imperfectly understand until you get something that you think "looks right", which usually means whatever fits your pre-conceived ideas.
    No that's not what I'm doing. I'll explain how you get ancestry percentages with D-stats. There are column populations and Row populations. You gather D-stat results of the form D(OutGroup, Row)(Column, Outgroup). You then make a spreadsheet like this.

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    Row 1 0.4 0.4 0.50
    Row 2 0.45 0.37 0.39
    Row 3 0.38 0.45 0.36
    Row 4 0.33 0.33 0.33
    Row 5 0.4 0.4 0.4
    Row 6 0.4 0.35 0.4


    Then you make Row population's results a mixture of each other. So, I can attempt to make Row1 a mixture of Row3 and Row5. I let the statistics speak for themselves. I don't ignore results that dis agree with my pre-conceived notions. After David Wesolski had a failed attempt with this using only modern populations as column populations, I choice to try to use ancient populations as columns and see what happens.

    The results I got back were exactly the same as results we'd seen with ADMIXTURE, TreeMix, and F4-stats. I didn't post them because they agreed with my pre-conceived notions, the statistics speak for themselves. There are results I won't tolerate because of my pre-conceived notions. I have a limit to craziness that I'll tolerate. If I see results like 80% Yamnaya in Sardinians I'll ignore it. Most everything else I won't ignore. One pre-conceived notion I had shattered was that WHG ancestry is high in modern Europeans. D-stat admixture shows that it isn't. It peaks in the East Baltic at probably about 20%. The concept of farmer+Hunter Gatherer=European origins is false even though for so long that dominated discussion about European origins. This was an important factoid I learned via D-stats.

    I'm constantly testing new models. The fact I tested the theory of East Asian admixture in Paleo Europeans instead of Basal Eurasian in Middle Easterners is witness to me being open-minded. I should be less confident about each set of new results I get but besides that I don't see how my approach is bad.

    In conclusion, I don't "randomly" plug in populations into the algorithm. I'm very careful and open-minded. I understand how algorithm works and know what column populations to use and what column populations not to use.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Even worse, you change the program without any understanding that this could lead to totally incorrect results.
    The program is very simple. I explained it above. I do have understand of it and understand how my changing of the program changes results. I don't always use D-stat values but I always use spreadsheets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I will tell you what I told someone else who posted here making god-like pronouncements: you've been wrong so many times that it would almost fill a city phone directory. You may not remember all of them, but others do. As to this latest answer, perhaps you've stumbled onto something that in some way reflects reality. What does it prove?
    Ok maybe I'm too confident in my predictions. Besides that I don't see what the big deal is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for West Eurasians being a mix of more ancient groups, is that supposed to be news? Are you going to claim credit for discovering that the earth revolves around the sun next? Do you think you're the first person to think that perhaps Basal Eurasian is a mix of an ancient West Eurasian clade with some minor SSA? Dienekes proposed that as a possibility years ago.
    I'm not proposing Basal Eurasian is West Eurasian+Minor SSA. I'm proposing it is a mix of Eurasian+Minor SSA. D-stats strongly reject the model of it being West Eurasian+SSA. I'm proposing not stating it as fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    mtDNA M1 and U6 are supposed to represent backmigrations to Africa
    the corresponding Y-DNA has not been identified, I suspect they are extinct
    the Y-DNA in North Africa is very young, dominated by E-M81 whose TMRCA is a mere 2100 years
    North-Africa has a long tradition of polygamy. Europe a long tradition of monogamy (Tacitus claims monogamy was a Germanic tradition).

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