1600 year old wreck of Roman cargo ship found in Caesaria harbor

[Angela]

For anyone who thinks sailing in the Mediterranean was easy, at least if you hugged the shore, it wasn't and isn't. This sank right in the harbor.

(What was the recent movie which included some scenes about a storm in the Mediterranean that sank a modern ship?)

Articles about this discovery can be found on all the archaeology sites. This is one of them:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news...hant-ship-has-been-discovered-caesarea-005902

"An underwater survey in the ancient port of Caesarea has uncovered thousands of coins and bronze statues dating to the 5th century AD."

How nice: they recycled!

"“These are extremely exciting finds, which apart from their extraordinary beauty, are of historical significance. The location and distribution of the ancient finds on the seabed indicate that a large merchant ship was carrying a cargo of metal slated recycling, which apparently encountered a storm at the entrance to the harbor and drifted until it smashed into the seawall and the rocks”, said Jacob Sharvit, director of the Marine Archaeology Unit of the IIA, and adds,“A marine assemblage such as this has not been found in Israel in the past thirty years. Metal statues are rare archaeological finds because they were always melted down and recycled in antiquity. When we find bronze artifacts it usually occurs at sea. Because these statues were wrecked together with the ship, they sank in the water and were thus ‘saved’ from the recycling process”."

My favorite Bronze statues of the Classical Age...They too were "saved", thank goodness!

If you google the Bronzes of Gerace and then click on the picture it gives you a much better idea of the mastery of the artist.

There's nothing like them again until Michelangelo's David.

LeBroc, if you read this, they have the "Greek" nose and feet.

Here are some of the finds. Since I undoubtedly descend from some of the residents of Luni, when I get tired of my current avatar, I may use this likeness of the goddess Luna.

 

[bicicleur 2]

these cargo vessels relied on the wind
when there was a storm, or when there was no wind at all, these vessels were completely steerless

the finds will look good in some museum

 

[LeBrok]

That's a great find. These two guys to me look like two Jews in greek realistic style. Yes?

these cargo vessels relied on the wind
when there was a storm, or when there was no wind at all, these vessels were completely steerless

the finds will look good in some museum

I would imagine that at least they had couple of oars to maneuver in a harbor. Surely, no good for a journey. It is amazing however what they could do with this simple sail they had.

 

[Angela]

That's a great find. These two guys to me look like two Jews in greek realistic style. Yes?

I would imagine that at least they had couple of oars to maneuver in a harbor. Surely, no good for a journey. It is amazing however what they could do with this simple sail they had.

Do you mean the Bronzes from Riace? They're representations of Greek warriors. I don't think they look much like Jews at all. They look like Greeks and Italians to me. (My husband insisted that the one on the left looked just like him, but he was always a very conceited man. The nose is totally different compared to his, which has a decided curve, while the statue does not, although I'll give him the body.)

The picture I posted is probably very deceiving because it cut down on the size drastically. (These statues are very large in actuality, 203 and 197 cm; it's part of what makes seeing them in the flesh so awe-inspiring.)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/22/fe/39/22fe3930e004d26d39b6a3a079495002.jpg

I think the Greek actor Andreas Konstantinou has the same look, although unfortunately the extreme high rootedness of the classical "Greek" nose seems to be in shorter supply nowadays.

Alexis Georgoulis?

Maybe be even Joe Manganiello? The eyes are much smaller though, as is often the case for Italians versus Greeks.

The modern movie I was thinking about was Wolf of Wall Street, where the yacht went down in the Mediterranean. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. Too bad such good movies have to be made of such pond scum.

 

[Yetos]

That's a great find. These two guys to me look like two Jews in greek realistic style. Yes?

I would imagine that at least they had couple of oars to maneuver in a harbor. Surely, no good for a journey. It is amazing however what they could do with this simple sail they had.

come on,

can't you recogn a Jew beard from a Greek or a Spanish etc?.

 

[Angela]

Do you mean the Bronzes from Riace? They're representations of Greek warriors. I don't think they look much like Jews at all. They look like Greeks and Italians to me. (My husband insisted that the one on the left looked just like him, but he was always a very conceited man. The nose is totally different compared to his, which has a decided curve, while the statue does not, although I'll give him the body.)

The picture I posted is probably very deceiving because it cut down on the size drastically. (These statues are very large in actuality, 203 and 197 cm; it's part of what makes seeing them in the flesh so awe-inspiring.)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/22/fe/39/22fe3930e004d26d39b6a3a079495002.jpg

I think the Greek actor Andreas Konstantinou has the same look, although unfortunately the extreme high rootedness of the classical "Greek" nose seems to be in shorter supply nowadays.

Alexis Georgoulis?

Maybe be even Joe Manganiello? The eyes are much smaller though, as is often the case for Italians versus Greeks.

The modern movie I was thinking about was Wolf of Wall Street, where the yacht went down in the Mediterranean. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. Too bad such good movies have to be made of such pond scum.

Maybe some Turks have retained a bit of that look too?Bolgar Gulsoy:

@Yetos,
There's no need to get so snippy with LeBroc. Eastern Europeans haven't spent their whole lives surrounded by Greeks and other southern Europeans, so the finer points may escape them, plus my original pictures were very small.

And no, I don't think there are these distinct differences in beard type. It's just that while Ashkenazim are indeed predominantly a Mediterranean population, the extreme bottleneck which they underwent and then the addition of some Eastern European means that they can often have a very distinctive look.

In my opinion, the Sephardim are much more difficult to categorize. Some of them can look very Middle Eastern:

Some, like Hank Azaria, for example, can look very Italian. I guess it depends how much genetic material they picked up in Europe, as well as chance. Coincidentally, I just saw that on DNA Land, some Sephardic Jews get a big chunk of "Italian".

 

[LeBrok]

Do you mean the Bronzes from Riace? They're representations of Greek warriors. I don't think they look much like Jews at all. They look like Greeks and Italians to me. (My husband insisted that the one on the left looked just like him, but he was always a very conceited man. The nose is totally different compared to his, which has a decided curve, while the statue does not, although I'll give him the body.)

The picture I posted is probably very deceiving because it cut down on the size drastically. (These statues are very large in actuality, 203 and 197 cm; it's part of what makes seeing them in the flesh so awe-inspiring.)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/22/fe/39/22fe3930e004d26d39b6a3a079495002.jpg

I think the Greek actor Andreas Konstantinou has the same look, although unfortunately the extreme high rootedness of the classical "Greek" nose seems to be in shorter supply nowadays.


Alexis Georgoulis?


Maybe be even Joe Manganiello? The eyes are much smaller though, as is often the case for Italians versus Greeks.



The modern movie I was thinking about was Wolf of Wall Street, where the yacht went down in the Mediterranean. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. Too bad such good movies have to be made of such pond scum.

Lol, the wreck from Caesarea had led me there. Just for curiosity, do we have jewish statius from same time frame?
Interesting part is that these beards don't have bald spots under lips, corner of the lips. They are totally full beards like this one:

And this one with matching greek nose:

Could be used as a genetic marker to trace a line to the founding population.

 

[LeBrok]

come on,

can't you recogn a Jew beard from a Greek or a Spanish etc?.

Can you give us examples of styles of jewish beards from 2000 years ago?

 

[Yetos]

Can you give us examples of styles of jewish beards from 2000 years ago?

well conservatives societies keep a liitle of the religious tradition,
so it would not be much different than today Orthodox Jew rabi priests,
yet the clothes surely are different.

 

[Angela]

Lol, the wreck from Caesarea had led me there. Just for curiosity, do we have jewish statius from same time frame?

Interesting part is that these beards don't have bald spots under lips, corner of the lips. They are totally full beards like this one:


And this one with matching greek nose:

Could be used as a genetic marker to trace a line to the founding population.

Jews weren't allowed to create graven images, so no statuary of their own. There are captive Jews recorded by other empires. This is from the time of the Assyrian empire.

They are carved into the Arch of Titus in Rome from the destruction of Jerusalem and their enslavement, but I can't find really close, detailed photos.


This is a coin struck for Herod Agrippa, not much of a Jew, and also you can't tell much from it:
http://mefacts.org/cache/html/israel/10080_files/HerodAgrip1port.jpg

There are also reconstructions done of remains from ancient Israel, but as always, I'm rather skeptical of reconstructions:

 

[Angela]

Since Samaritans haven't intermarried with anyone else for over 2000 years they're worth a look, although there are two caveats: they've undergone a lot of drift, and the Judeans of the day thought they were admixed with some other Assyrian strain.

I don't recall ever seeing a Jewish man with a "Greek" or even a "Roman" nose, although probably some do exist.

In my opinion the young man you posted doesn'tquite have a "Greek" nose, as the distinguishing feature of that nose, in addition to the straightness of it, is that there is an unbroken line between forehead and nose. It looks to me as if there is a definite indention at the root. This is more how I see it.

Fabrizio Rongione-actor of Italian descent:

He can't grow a beard at all; he should give up.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

First I think we all agree, that is so beautiful that only Greek -even if not it was- will call them.


From what I know the Jews or even broadly the Semitic world, left no such analogous naked men trust -even if wearing Boeotian type perikefalaia (helmet)-, and foreskin(ακροποσθία) ;;;
or as we would say in English, Full covered !?.
I also find extremely difficultfor the Jews at that time to spent material, I mean money and effort to portray two personalities? as Heroes? Gods?City founders? ...


Still,
material technical and aesthetic performance meet the already known Greek standards such as:
Zeus or Poseidon of Artemision

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ποσειδώνας_του_Αρτεμισίου

also the famous Charioteer of Delphi
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%97%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82_(%CE%AC%CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1_%CE%94%CE%B5%CE%BB%CF%86%CF%8E%CE%BD)
​

the horseback teen

http://odysseus.culture.gr/h/4/gh430.jsp?obj_id=6221
etc.


They speculated that were built in Athens'- the Reggio warriors-in a workshop difference of about 30 years? there are also proposals for some sculptors such as -Krisilas? -Antinor?
They respond both - despite the difference date manufacture; to aesthetic standards and principles of Polycleitus which briefly indicates a wider waist Shorter thighs in contraposto attitude, as opposed to the development in the cross and the proportions in the subsequent years of Praxiteles and later to walk away and smaller heads of Lyssipos.
.https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxiteles
.https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippos


But what they are; Who are they?
It could be a cluster of statues of three, eight or ten statues? or only the two.
What position were in town?- Devoted to Agora? in a Shrine? in a Stadium?
Clusters of two men is not original issue, as Castor and Pollux, and a more earthy version and possibly more relevant to the theme of Reggio warriors, is Αρμόδιος and Αριστογείτων
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmodius_and_Aristogeiton
or
Pericles and Ephialtes tyrannicides?
http://autochthonesellhnes.blogspot.gr/2015/02/blog-post_6.html


I have some doubts about some conclusions, but the photo is incomprehensibly great.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Q4yU1Jqge...s1600/431173_214196928709108_1420176946_n.jpg


stay focus on the picture for a while ... Astonishing!
(panax use google translator!)

 

[Angela]

Nana: From what I know the Jews or even broadly the Semitic world, left no such analogous naked men trust -even if wearing Boeotian type perikefalaia (helmet)-, and foreskin(ακροποσθία) ;;;
or as we would say in English, Full covered !?.

You're right...from what I can remember, there's no male equivalent to this kind of representation of Ashtarte anywhere in the Middle East, not even among the fertility pantheon of the Canaanites.

https://albertaweinberg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/british-museum-2013-07-30-021.jpg

 

[LeBrok]

You're right...from what I can remember, there's no male equivalent to this kind of representation of Ashtarte anywhere in the Middle East, not even among the fertility pantheon of the Canaanites.

https://albertaweinberg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/british-museum-2013-07-30-021.jpg

One would think that the Greek style would have spread together with Greek culture around the empire after Alexander's conquest.

 

[Angela]

One would think that the Greek style would have spread together with Greek culture around the empire after Alexander's conquest.

It did, and the people in the Near East did become very Hellenized, with the notable exception of the Jews, or at least with the exception of a good number of Jews.

With the break-up of Alexander's kingdom the so-called "Seleucid" empire, founded by one of his generals, ruled Israel. Some Jews were indeed influenced by Hellenism, but like stupid rulers before and after them the Seleucids went too far. Under Antiochus III they first attempted to put statues of their gods, "idols" in the parlance of the Jews, into the Temple. Predictably enough, the Jews rebelled. The "idols" were removed, and things quietened down. Antiochus IV went even further, restoring the statues, but also trying to outlaw circumcision, which the "Greeks" saw as a disgusting alteration to the human body, and the celebration of the Sabbath. Under the 5 sons of Mattathias, the Maccabees, as they came to be known, initiated a twenty year rebellion which proved ultimately successful. The surviving son became the founder of the Harsmonean dynasty, and for about 80 years, Israel was independent again. The last members of the family were put to death by Herod, an Idumean. The purification of the Temple which was undertaken by the victorious Maccabees is what is celebrated on Hanukkah.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Maccabees.html

This prohibition on the erection of "idols" and by implication in creating them has a great deal to do, I think, with the fact that there are no Jewish artists using the human form until the modern era beginning in the late 19th century. It's only then that we get artists like Marc Chagall and Amadeo Modigliani.

La Mariee-Marc Chagall
http://www.abbeville.com/images-catalog/full-size/0896599353.interior03.jpg

Modigliani:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ce/9b/98/ce9b98bce290fa3e54b81e9818c0e56a.jpg

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

You're right...from what I can remember, there's no male equivalent to this kind of representation of Ashtarte anywhere in the Middle East, not even among the fertility pantheon of the Canaanites.

https://albertaweinberg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/british-museum-2013-07-30-021.jpg

etrified: my x-wife.

When I was typing about "males"... that lady I was thinking about...


I mean also that the two males, did not applied a ceremonial practice of circumsizion (-dont know to spell but that dont hurts actually!)- which probably could be representative to a large portion of mediterenean males.
As far i know Egyptians for sure, if not Ethiopians; and Libyans; also well practice that circum-hurting things to their young males millenium before common era;


I am wondering if it is proper or not to expand to details, because i thing this is a kind of "taboo" matter, close to western habbits and not only...Herodot mentioning some nice stuff about the phallic symbols which established from Pelasgians... I will no extend.
But appear naked in public, it was first in the Olympics, the name of the person i cnt remember or even the time but close enough to 650-550 B.C.E- not for sure.
But for what I am sure is that these two guys are Greeks, Hellenes. Who are they, is still debateable.
Too old to be athletes, probably not gods because they carrying shields, admirals; generals; political leaders; heros; is the most possible. There are some achetypical features of the one eyed -the youngest- which addresses to Pericles of Athens.
The jewish scenario for me rejected for all the above + post#12.


Greek noses, feets, myths etc.
...(eyes
The "buttonhole" eyes is typically common in the Westerners Greeks also and to some mountaineers of the islands, like in Crete or Naxos etc. The bulby and big eyes correspond for me with Anatolians and Aegean folks in general, maybe with some risky extend, I think that this small, dark, sparkling eyes are representative of a Dorian stock; but also Dinaric;


(noses
The greek noses of the "Archaics" is slightly differential from the "Classics" or even the Minoans and the Aegean people-as depicted in art.
Why the nose so enormously straightened so up; We have to remind ourselves that "Classic's" is not realism but in most, reasonable idealism. When we "meet" the "beauty" we cannot ignore it, so in the cases of the noses among others, the artists used to follow patterns with religious devotion, especially when they inspire divine calmness and not human passion.
The long noses of Phillip the 2nd depictions and images address also some Dinaric features;


(feet
The Archaic Kouros don't respond to the typical as we imagine -today- "greek nose", allthough always with exceptions , but not to the majority of Kouros (sons) and Kores (daughters).
The "Archaic Son" needed almost ~250,(+/-50years) slightlysepeate his steady arms from his ribs and almost, smething more than a millenium to move his left feet;! In the amazing distance of 3/4 of a feet... -and stoped, for a while...

I mention all the above to explain , how fast, or slow -as we consider- the exelixis took apart.
I ment strictly on sculpture, and i will not accept any associations and therorizations about lazy Greeks,- which up on the peak of their "career" - just walk a dinstant, less of a feet in a thousand years !

(for post#11.)
Fabrizio Ronzone also tending to be Dinaric; and I mean, big nose as succesfully you mention with the unbroken line of the nose with the forehead, that could be greek but,
the jaw and the lips, dont respond to typical mediterenean shapes not the even colours of the flesh.
That's just my thought.

some Kouros unfortunately with less profile photos
http://peritexnisologos.blogspot.gr/2015/05/blog-post_6.html


(panax did not use-d google translator.)

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

One would think that the Greek style would have spread together with Greek culture around the empire after Alexander's conquest.

That "One" could be Buddha?

What this guy doing there?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Buddha-Vajrapani-Herakles.JPG


Poseidon of Gandahar;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/PoseidonGandhara.JPG
or
An Indo- Corinthian column capital with "Macedonian" Buddha; 3rd century C.E. !!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BuddhaAcanthusCapitol.JPG


From 4th B.C.E to 13th century of C.E !!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
The influence of Greco-Buddhist art also spread northward towardsCentral Asia, strongly affecting the art of the Tarim Basin, and ultimately the arts of China, Korea, and Japan.

Politics, Religion and Onesicritus ! -..." That the best philosophy [is] that which liberates the mind from [both] pleasure and grief"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism#cite_note-Strabo_XV.1-7
It was a cultural consequence of a long chain of interactions begun by Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of the Indo-Greek Kingdom and extended during the flourishing of the Kushan Empire. Buddhism was then adopted in Central and Northeastern Asia from the 1st century AD, ultimately spreading to China, Korea, Japan, Philippines, Siberia, and Vietnam

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

It did, and the people in the Near East did become very Hellenized, with the notable exception of the Jews, or at least with the exception of a good number of Jews.

With the break-up of Alexander's kingdom the so-called "Seleucid" empire, founded by one of his generals, ruled Israel. Some Jews were indeed influenced by Hellenism, but like stupid rulers before and after them the Seleucids went too far. Under Antiochus III they first attempted to put statues of their gods, "idols" in the parlance of the Jews, into the Temple. Predictably enough, the Jews rebelled. The "idols" were removed, and things quietened down. Antiochus IV went even further, restoring the statues, but also trying to outlaw circumcision, which the "Greeks" saw as a disgusting alteration to the human body, and the celebration of the Sabbath. Under the 5 sons of Mattathias, the Maccabees, as they came to be known, initiated a twenty year rebellion which proved ultimately successful. The surviving son became the founder of the Harsmonean dynasty, and for about 80 years, Israel was independent again. The last members of the family were put to death by Herod, an Idumean. The purification of the Temple which was undertaken by the victorious Maccabees is what is celebrated on Hanukkah.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Maccabees.html

This prohibition on the erection of "idols" and by implication in creating them has a great deal to do, I think, with the fact that there are no Jewish artists using the human form until the modern era beginning in the late 19th century. It's only then that we get artists like Marc Chagall and Amadeo Modigliani.

La Mariee-Marc Chagall
http://www.abbeville.com/images-catalog/full-size/0896599353.interior03.jpg

Modigliani:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ce/9b/98/ce9b98bce290fa3e54b81e9818c0e56a.jpg

Rock me Amadeus!
I am amazed of Chagall's goats with flute, which repeat them also to other of his paintings.

Nice points, i generally agree, i would like to do some mentions about the Epigonae (Alexanders succesors), which are responsible for the (bad) image who offered us for Alexander.
totalitarian, vicious, barbarian, etc.

but is late for me and i will probably totally derail the whole thread.

 

[Angela]

"This idealisation of nudity marked the Greeks out among ancient cultures of the Mediterranean. 'It was shameful to appear naked to the Persians,’ says Jenkins. ‘When you see representations of naked men on Syrian bas reliefs or in Egyptian sculpture it is because they are victims of war, they are failed human beings and it is a mark of their dishonour. In ancient Greece it's the hero who is shown naked, but that's not the norm for other peoples of the ancient world.'"

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bodysphere/new-exhibition-highlights-greek-beauty-ideal/5650086

Certainly it wasn't the norm for Semitic peoples apparently.

As for circumcision, the earliest documentation of it is among the Egyptians. Perhaps the Hebrews adopted it from them. Every once in a while someone in the U.S. starts to argue against it, but it never works; virtually every baby boy is circumcised in the hospital soon after birth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision

There was indeed a great deal of idealization at certain periods. "Though truer in its general effect to nature, this selection [Early Classical] is sometimes arbitrarily 'ideal', most obviously in the Grecian profile which unites forehead and nose in a continuous straight line and in the unguinal ligament which supports the belly and marks the trunk off from the legs.
http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/antiquity/greek-sculpture-early-classical-period.htm

Two of my favorite Greek busts:

 

[LeBrok]

etrified: my x-wife.

When I was typing about "males"... that lady I was thinking about...


I mean also that the two males, did not applied a ceremonial practice of circumsizion (-dont know to spell but that dont hurts actually!)- which probably could be representative to a large portion of mediterenean males.
As far i know Egyptians for sure, if not Ethiopians; and Libyans; also well practice that circum-hurting things to their young males millenium before common era;

Circumcision could have had sense in pastoral tribes of hot climate. The sand can get everywhere, cut skin and make infection, or something to do with other hygienic problems. How often people could bathe in desert environment?
Having said that I'm not a fan of any type of body mutilation.

The jewish scenario for me rejected for all the above + post#12.

As I mentioned before, I thought they were from Caesarea.

(noses
The greek noses of the "Archaics" is slightly differential from the "Classics" or even the Minoans and the Aegean people-as depicted in art.
Why the nose so enormously straightened so up; We have to remind ourselves that "Classic's" is not realism but in most, reasonable idealism. When we "meet" the "beauty" we cannot ignore it, so in the cases of the noses among others, the artists used to follow patterns with religious devotion, especially when they inspire divine calmness and not human passion.
The long noses of Phillip the 2nd depictions and images address also some Dinaric features;

That's true, the unnamed art is most often pictured with a perfect greek nose, however busts of famous known people usualy don't have it. Look at Socrates.

However, we can find many people in Western World with perfect greek nose, it certainly exists and it is not just a figment of imagination. It must have been very common back then in Greece.

I mention all the above to explain , how fast, or slow -as we consider- the exelixis took apart.
I ment strictly on sculpture, and i will not accept any associations and therorizations about lazy Greeks,- which up on the peak of their "career" - just walk a dinstant, less of a feet in a thousand years !

Hey, lazy people wouldn't be able to manage 4 slaves all they long.

If you care, we indolged more into nosie subject here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30832-Recognizing-ethnicity-by-the-nose