Leak: Early Iranian and Turksih Farmers were Genetically Distinct

[Goga]

However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:

" the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations "

Yeah. First of all, most Europeans have not so much of 'Yamnaya ancestry'.

Secondly, they are talking about "DIRECT" genetic contribution. But there was no direct contribution. Because it was via Yamnaya, so we talk about in-direct contribution, via Maykop/Yamnaya and then some into Europe


People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

 

[MOESAN]

As bibicleur I don't see (to date) what are the specific "farmers genes". I conceive more easily some convergent evolutions by way-of-life acting and selecting common ancient genes or different genes having the same effect. Farming I think was not born a blessed morning but was the result of long time of observations and hazards and thoughts favoured by specific environments. So I can understand why Hgs were not so attracted by agriculture at first: it was not THEIR proper evolution. Wesee today that individuals transpoed in new environments can change very easily of habits when entire communities stayed in their original environment cannot so easily. Only quickly built opinion.

 

[Goga]

Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.

Yeah, those from the ancient Mesopotamia and BMAC who called themselves so called "ARYANS'' (Medes, Mitanni, Kassites, Persians etc.) were actually native to and originally from the Zagros Mountains.

But I was talking more about those who migrated into the Maykop/Yamnaya.


In West Asia we can find a lot of ancient R1a* and R1b*. The R1a* to which I do belong is ancestral to R1a in Europe. It is not from the Steppes at all, but native to West Asia. So we can assume and it is actually widely accepted by the 'true' educated scientists (not amateur bloggers) that R1* evolved in West Asia, somewhere around the Iranian Plateau.

So, that's why I'm saying that proto-Aryan people (proto-Kurd/proto-Persians/SUMERIANS???) from the Zagros Mountains in Kurdistan, who invaded the Mesopotamia (Sumerians, Mitanni, Umman Manda, Kassites, Guti etc.), BMAC (Eastern Aryans/proto-Indic people) in southcentral Asia and Maykop/Yamnaya Horizon were actually J2, R1b, and maybe R1a-something, J1-something folks....


R1b around Yamnaya/Maykop was from the Iranian Plateau, since R1b even in Europe is, after more than 4000 years still connected to 'GEDROSIA' component.


"GEDROSIA" in Western Europe has to be from 'somewhere' and I'm sure it is directly from Maykop/Yamnaya and indirectly from the Iranian Plateau and is connected to R1b in Western Europe...


The rest you can see my previous response above this response...

 

[Goga]

Couldn't that just mean that they never moved as a disparate population into Europe and so are not like the ENF? It doesn't mean they couldn't have moved into Europe as part of an admixed group. In other words, they might have formed part of the mix that created the steppe Indo-Europeans.

Exactly, this was actually the case. Yamnaya folks were already 'hybrid' people. Yamnaya was NOT pure at all. And most Europeans don't even have much of the Yamnaya ancestry.

So some Indo-European speaking people in Europe could have some ancestry (GEDROSIA-component) directly from the Yamnaya, but INdirectly from Zagros Mountains!

 

[Fire Haired14]

Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.

CHG and Anatolia_Neolithic have the same amount of Basal Eurasian, so one couldn't have received Basal Eurasian from the other. There's lots of common ancestry between EEF and CHG that European and Siberian HGs lack but their relationship is still pretty distant. One of our CHG genomes lived 13,000 years ago which long before farming existed, so Basal Eurasian did not expand with farming. I don't think it has a special relationship with farming, besides Basal Eurasian first appearing in Europe with farming.

 

[Fire Haired14]

People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

There's no need for a migration from the Zagros into Russia, when very similar people lived in the Caucasus mountains just south of Russia. CHG ancestry came into Yamnaya from the Caucasus not Iran.

Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

That's correct.

But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

There were no proto-Kurds in 4000 BC. No modern linguistic group existed back then. Language changes quickly.

 

[holderlin]

4000 BC proto-Kurds? wtf. in 4000 BC we would probably call it PIE, or some earlier form. And this was on the steppe, to be clear.

"Cultivation" and "farming" in the common tongue, if you will, are separated by evidence of irrigation. So "irrigation" is farming. Does this help us? No.

This is a Teal farmer I believe. And I think we may even find evidence of earlier than Natufian farming in these mountainous regions. It's my own BS drunk theory but the solution of irrigation would most obviously have presented itself in mountainous regions where pristine water sources tended to be cascading downwards from multiple sources.

My drunk stoned vacationed out hypothesis is that we'll see teal farmers all the way to Indus valley. I think these are the Indus farmers.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Another kind of farming,

the maize and the teosinte,

well it is known that was farming, with all characteristics,
they also did selective farming since e known that they choose the kernels to use next year for reproduction,
so central Balsas river valley is another place were farming was developed, away from old world,

the same method we know about teonsite and corn, might also used for barley wheat ζεα σικαλις
to be selective evolution of αγανα,

αγανον
if you have dog you know it for sure

so both cases at old, as at new world, show that early farming was a knowledge of selection that was known to certain clans, and passed through generation knowldge transimission,
even the days when they need to 'reproduce' the 'treasure', even the kind of soil

Irrigation which is the second part of farming, comes much later as a second farming boom,

watching the story of corn at new world, a world that we could observe, with hunter/gatherers, miners, and farmers, and the spread of corn farming,
I think that farming indeed was a treasure that some 'haplo' used to survive and win 'nature's selection' since the knowledge was a secret that passed from progonoi to apogonoi, (elders to youngers, possibly the selection was done by women, since in all ancient religions are known as gift of Δημητρα Cerres etc,)
but that knowledge as most knowldge, one day spreads,

by the above i do not mean that some haplo are blessed with genes for farming, or with scientific selection of reproduction,
but some 'Hg' might evolute different due to some knowledge, or enviroment etc.


PS
teosinte and corn have the same number of chromosomes

when and where did above happen?
was it after 13 ka when people arrived in the Peleponesos with obsidian from Melos?
these people also brought nuts and pulses from Anatolia

or is this about another time and place?

P.S. ok, I got it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsas_River#History

 

[Yetos]

when and where did above happen?
was it after 13 ka when people arrived in the Peleponesos with obsidian from Melos?
these people also brought nuts and pulses from Anatolia

or is this about another time and place?

P.S. ok, I got it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsas_River#History

it is simple,
today we have exclude the case that Ameridians came from elsewhere, except the Bering sea,
that means that the same Hg pass the ice, inhabit the North America forests,
created miners that exctract the gold conquistadores had found,
and created a farming society at Balsas river,
the difference is that corn of agricultural comunities of S Mexico did not boom, as in Neolithic Europe,
even at 18 century at north america indians, corn culture was unknown, but colonists cultivated it,
they needed to eliminate the buffalos to turn Ameridians to 'modern lifestyle'
although today corn is a product allover American continent and the world,

and only the above is enough to certify me that there is no Hg 'blessed' with farming abilities,
but, considering that even today Balsas river valley produces corn, and a society still trust corn,
I believe that some nations, and tribes (mean some Hg carriers), due to inheritage and diet anex (lactose, cerestrial gluten, casein, green grass, tolerance,) have tense to a kind of living that is connected with farming, or hunters etc.

it is very long way to change our genes to suit with climate,
it is easier to change the climate and the world to our genes,

lactose problem societies would not tend or cow farming,
and since lactose tollerance is inherited by parents to kids,
that society surely will tend not to produce dairy products, i believe that they will find other ways to produce meat, than cow, so expand their economy.

but in 'old world', we see something different,
farming tribes/societies, expand, migrate and travel in seek for irrigated,
so yes,
some Hg that evolute and had the 'technognosia' (know how) of agriculture migrate in search for suitable soil, water, etc,
and as we already said they were apogonoi (sons) of certain families, surely they carry the major HG mark of their ancestors,

so J is not blessed with 'farming genes', but J spread the Demeter's gift to old world, cause possesed the 'know how' via parental/religious guidance, and possible some diet anexations.

 

[Goga]

There's no need for a migration from the Zagros into Russia, when very similar people lived in the Caucasus mountains just south of Russia. CHG ancestry came into Yamnaya from the Caucasus not Iran.

True. CHG ancestry in Yamnaya Horizon came from Caucasus/Maykop. But there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau (Leyla-Tepe) into the Maykop. There is an archeological evidence for it.

There were no proto-Kurds in 4000 BC. No modern linguistic group existed back then. Language changes quickly.

I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.

 

[Goga]

4000 BC proto-Kurds? wtf. in 4000 BC we would probably call it PIE, or some earlier form. And this was on the steppe, to be clear.

First point: see my previous reaction. Second point: the late PIE that arrived in Europe came from Yamnaya. But what about the early PIE in West Asia??? I mean those who brought 'early' PIE into Yamnaya. It is widely accepted that evolution of PIE occurred in stages. There was 'early' PIE and 'late' PIE..

 

[epoch]

You shouldn't have a problem giving us a modern example of hunter gatherer tribe who learned farming by listening and by examples without genetic transfer. Anything of last 500 years of well documented history would be fine. If farming could be learned and obviously is way more beneficial than hunting, you should try to answer this, why they don't get it do it?

Papua's most likely.

What was the purpose of the sickle before farming?!
Is harvesting part of farming?

Harvesting wild cereals. Pretty much well established. The size of the grains is a good indication.

Nope, domestication of animals was preceded by farmers and their sedentary lifestyle. Also, overproduction of food is necessary to feed the pigs, which only happens in agriculture. You can also prove your point by presenting HG tribe with domesticated animals, and I don't mean pets.

Pigs weren't fed overproduction, they were herded in woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannage
That is how Ertebolla and its cousins kept pigs.

My theory: The reason why in Europe farmers always had farmers DNA has to do with the fact that once you farm, you own land. And with owning land comes the issue of inheritance. And that makes marriage a political question. So once you start farming your daughters become an asset in your political game. So if HGs settle near ENFs they will inevitably intermarry. The "apartheid" of farmers and HG's in Europe was only due to the fact that HGs and their later neolithic offspring didn't own land.

You see this clearly in the DNA results: The later you get into the neolithic the more HG DNA farmers get.

 

[epoch]

Yeah. First of all, most Europeans have not so much of 'Yamnaya ancestry'.

Secondly, they are talking about "DIRECT" genetic contribution. But there was no direct contribution. Because it was via Yamnaya, so we talk about in-direct contribution, via Maykop/Yamnaya and then some into Europe

Maybe it could still be. However, this pre-announcement doesn't bring it any closer and it is NO genetic evidence for you theory.

People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

That is just your private theory. The Steppe-theory hasn't seen any set back yet, so there is no reason to abandon it. Linguistically it is parsimonious as it explains the clear indication that PIE has ties to the Caucasus and to proto-Uralic. It explains DNA results, archaeology and furthermore, R1b in Villabruna is far better explainable if R1b was native to the area. There seems to be a clear AG3 signal in WHG.

Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

Proto-Kurds, no less! Anyway, we'll see the D-stats this year.

 

[Goga]

Maybe it could still be. However, this pre-announcement doesn't bring it any closer and it is NO genetic evidence for you theory.

That is just your private theory. The Steppe-theory hasn't seen any set back yet, so there is no reason to abandon it. Linguistically it is parsimonious as it explains the clear indication that PIE has ties to the Caucasus and to proto-Uralic. It explains DNA results, archaeology and furthermore, R1b in Villabruna is far better explainable.

There is a genetic evidence for this theory. West Asian auDNA in Yamnaya should be enough evidence. Yamnaya folks were 'hybrids' between West Asians (Caucasus/Iranian Plateau) and native ancient Steppes Peoples before the arrival of West Asians.


Modern European R1b is different from the R1b of Villabruna. It has been evolved separately. West Asia has still got some of the oldest and most archaic R1b haplogroups. Remember that R1b in Africa is NOT from Europe, but from West Asia. Because there is 'West Asian' auDNA in R1b-rich areas in Africa and not European auDNA at all.

We have got plenty archeological evidence that West Asian Maykop folks migrated into the Yamnaya. Like kurgans in Maykop are older than Yamnaya Kurgans. Ceramics/pottery or oldest bronze stuff in the Maykop. Early PIE has nothing to do with Uralic. It is possible that Uralic was somehow influenced by the LATE Pie from Yamanaya and later by already evolved Iranian (Aryan) languages.


Just 1 question? Which race is nowadays in our modern world the most 'native' to Zagros Mountains??? Thank you!

 

[epoch]

There is a genetic evidence for this theory. West Asian auDNA in Yamnaya should be enough evidence. Yamnaya folks were 'hybrids' between West Asians (Caucasus/Iranian Plateau) and native ancient Steppes Peoples before the arrival of West Asians.


Modern European R1b is different from the R1b of Villabruna. It has been evolved separately.

That is not what I read. It may not be the origin of European R1b, but it's pretty related to it. It begs an explanation.

West Asia has still got some of the oldest and most archaic R1b haplogroups.

That is true. However, that doesn't mean it originated there. It is tied to Indo-Aryans (Persia, Kurds) so it could also have come with steppe-people. Furthermore these could be undocumented R1b sub clades, as was the case in other studies claiming R1b* in Jordan IIRC.

Remember that R1b in Africa is NOT from Europe, but from West Asia. Because there is 'West Asian' auDNA in R1b-rich areas in Africa and not European auDNA at all.

Even if it did go through the Middle-East it still is not proof of the origin of R1b. The idea that R1b originated north of the Caucasus and an early offshoot came through the Middle-East is perfectly possible. There is R1b V88 in West-Asian groups.

We have got plenty archeological evidence that West Asian Maykop folks migrated into the Yamnaya. Like kurgans in Maykop are older than Yamnaya Kurgans. Ceramics/pottery or oldest bronze stuff in the Maykop.

But Maykop is north of the Caucasus. And while it's considered a good candidate for the Caucasian influence in PIE we don't have Maykop auDNA yet. We do have mtDNA, U8 and V, T2, N1. So it looks like Maykop was at least partly European HG.

Also, we know that CHG exists in the Caucasus in the paleolithic and mesolithic, so you need far more to explain why Yamnaya got its CHG from an area far south of the Caucasus rather than an area close to it.

Early PIE has nothing to do with Uralic. It is possible that Uralic was somehow influenced by the LATE Pie from Yamanaya and later by already evolved Iranian (Aryan) languages.

That is utter nonsense. The ties are clearly old and deep. Ne- for negation, me- for me, etc etc. You can google it yourself. There even is a tendency to consider the ties to be proof of a partly shared decent.

 

[Goga]

That is not what I read.

Maybe you read what you want to read.

That is true. However, that doesn't mean it originated there. It is tied to Indo-Aryans (Persia, Kurds) so it could also have come with steppe-people.

There is a lot of R1b in Jordan and Levant in general. Assyrians are not Iranic. R1b is also very high among the Armenians. Armenians are also not Iranic

That is utter nonsense. The ties are clearly old and deep. Ne- for negation, me- for me, etc etc. You can google it yourself. There even is a tendency to consider the ties to be proof of a partly shared decent.

That's your opinion.

Ancient Steppes folks before 'late' PIE arrival from the Maykop into the Yamnaya could spoke a some kind of Uralic language. Uralic is much more closer to Turanic and Mongoloid people (people with broad faces and small eyes). There is a lot Turkish/Mongoloid DNA in the Steppes. So there was an interaction between Uralic people and Maykop/Yamnaya people. The Steppes folks are partly 'Caucasoid', partly 'Mongoloid'. But there is absolutely no evidence that the very first PIE and Uralic shared the same ancestors. Sure, maybe some creationists who desperately trying to link PIE to the Europeans come with a different story. But this is nothing but fantasy. And their opinions are not my problem



What about proposed family language of Uralic–Yukaghir languages? Or Eskimo–Uralic languages or Uralo-Siberian languages or Ural-Altaic languages?



Proto-Indo-Iranian (proto-Indic & proto-Iranic) languages had ergativity in them. Also, Caucasian languages have ergativity in them, while Uralic languages are not linked to ergativity. Uralic is a 'Mongoloid' language and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'Caucasoid' Iranian Plateau/West Asia.


With other words, 'early' PIE had aboslutely no conenction with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes, while 'late' PIE in Yamnaya/Steppes had connection with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes.

 

[Tomenable]

But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes ((

They can, as long as they work in an autonomous collective and don't have a lord!: :grin:

 

[epoch]

Maybe you read what you want to read.

*sigh*

That's your opinion.

No, the opinion of linguistics.

Ancient Steppes folks before 'late' PIE arrival from the Maykop into the Yamnaya could spoke a some kind of Uralic language. Uralic is much more closer to Turanic and Mongoloid people (people with broad faces and small eyes). There is a lot Turkish/Mongoloid DNA in the Steppes. So there was an interaction between Uralic people and Maykop/Yamnaya people. The Steppes folks are partly 'Caucasoid', partly 'Mongoloid'. But there is absolutely no evidence that the very first PIE and Uralic shared the same ancestors. Sure, maybe some creationists who desperately trying to link PIE to the Europeans come with a different story. But this is nothing but fantasy. And their opinions are not my problem

More sighing.

What about proposed family language of Uralic–Yukaghir languages? Or Eskimo–Uralic languages or Uralo-Siberian languages or Ural-Altaic languages?

Most linguistics agree on PU <-> PIE. Very few on these.

Proto-Indo-Iranian (proto-Indic & proto-Iranic) languages had ergativity in them. Also, Caucasian languages have ergativity in them, while Uralic languages are not linked to ergativity.

Which why the most linguistics, the same as previous mentioned also agree on a Caucasian influence or substrate. Where does that bring us? North of the Caucasus and Black Sea.

Uralic is a 'Mongoloid' language and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'Caucasoid' Iranian Plateau/West Asia.
With other words, 'early' PIE had aboslutely no conenction with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes, while 'late' PIE in Yamnaya/Steppes had connection with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes.

It's a lovely day here. I'm not going to waste it on arguing on this.

 

[Alan]

I did say the Iranian Plateau people will not resemble those Anatolian_Levant farmers but look more similar to CHG dudes, probably being more Gedrosia shifted though.

My whole theory from the beginning was, we will deal with two if not three distinct groups. Anatolian_Levant farmers in the West. "Teal like" people on the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. I also said those CHG dudes probably came up there from the Iranian Plateau didn't I?

Heck the supplement uses even the same wording as I did. I always spoke about an Western part and an Eastern part of the Near East that at least for over 2 years now.

take in mind the text also speaks about those Neolithic people from the Iranian Plateau receiving Basal Eurasian ancestry by start of the Neolithic means, before that the Iranian Plateau probably CHG minus the Basal Eurasian portion, which sounds like an ANE like people to me, which makes even more sense, We have a ANE-WHG transition from the Iranian Plateau to Anatolia. ANE mixed with BE on the Iranian Plateau and becomes CHG while in the Levant and Anatolia it mixes with WHG and becomes Anatolia-Levant Farmers.

 

[Alan]

The Neolithic Revolution developed among geographically adjacent but genetically distinct populations

Now we have DNA from Neolithic farmers from Barcin Turkey and Zagros Mountaisn in Iran. They lived 1200 miles apart from each other and were genetically very distinct from each other. The Zagros Neolithic female has affinity to Paleo Caucasians, meaning she's probably descended of locals who learned how to farm. Both distinct Stone age Near Eastern populations migrated into Europe. The farmers from Turkey colonized most of Western and Southern Europe and relatives(maybe farmers) to the Zagros Neolithic woman migrated North into Russia. That's what we know so far.

Abstract:

Have you found some stone tables which listed all the genders of the individuals which went for the migration? :grin: