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Thread: Leak: Early Iranian and Turksih Farmers were Genetically Distinct

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    Quote Originally Posted by AliShirwan View Post
    Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.
    Someone posted on another thread that the early Iranian sample is in the 5.4% region on the map below, adjacent to the Lurs. Or where Laks live.
    I'm not knowledgeable at all; Are Laks and Lurs also interchangeable Kurdish tribes ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laks_%28Iran%29
    Below is a rough map of Lur frequency.

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    @SILESIAN,

    Ok let me try to explain this the best and most simple way I can. In terms of Laks, technically you would classify them as a "sub-group" of Kurdish or as others may like to call them "sub-ethnic group" of kurds. Either way I would say the majority of Laks identify and come under the Kurdish umbrella. Since Laki is a Kurdish dialect. It is practically identical to Feyli.


    Now as for Lurs, I guess it gets political but there a number of Lurs who identify as Kurds. Whence we call them Feyli Lurs. I'm not too sure of their y-dna but I assume autosomally they are very similar to us Feylis. For the sake of genetics, I assume it is better to divide in that sense.

    Anyway Lurs are I guess a transitional people, bewteen Persian and Feyli(Kurdish), atleast their language indicates such.

    No Laks and Lurs aren't interchangable.

    I've done a poor job of explaining lol.

    1280px-SOUTHERN_KURDISH.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by AliShirwan View Post
    Here are all the Feylis so far tested, this is the ANE.(mine included is the first one):



    I personally believe we have links to the general Eastern caucasus region. Since it seems like so far 80% are j1* and we tend to have alot of caucasus input, aswell as gedrosia input. I will wait for my ftdna result to come back in a few days.
    Thanks! This is very interesting.

    Kurds belong to the 'Caspian race'. We are related to the people of Leyla-Tepe culture. I'm sure that Leyla-Tepe people were also the Iranian-Plateu CHG folks and belonged to the same Caspian race as Modern Kurds and Persians. It is from that area that folks migrated into the Mesopotamia, BMAC and Maykop/Yamnaya.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture




    I (Ezdi Kurd, from Shengal and Northern Kurdistan) have almost the same amount of ANE & Caucas-Gedrosia as you Feyli/Luri guys from SouthEast Kurdistan. This is GREAT!!! All Kurds (no matter to what dialect they do belong) are brothers.

    Here are my results.


    # Population Percent
    1 ANE 33.37
    2 Caucas-Gedrosia 33.26
    3 ENF 13.61
    4 NearEast 12.62
    5 ASI 3.99
    6 WHG-UHG 2.03
    7 Subsaharian 1.07
    8 Paleo-African 0.06

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    ANE

    Me = 33.37
    You = 34.52
    M876120 = 34.09
    M790508 = 36.63
    M721423 = 33.45
    M641655 = 35.59
    M414688 = 32.65


    Caucas-Gedrosia

    Me = 33.26
    You = 33.29
    M876120 = 37.81
    M790508 = 31.68
    M721423 = 35.26
    M641655 = 32.79
    M414688 = 35.77


    Who is 'M876120'? Does he/she have some distant Persian ancestors???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    ANE

    Me = 33.37
    You = 34.52
    M876120 = 34.09
    M790508 = 36.63
    M721423 = 33.45
    M641655 = 35.59
    M414688 = 32.65


    Caucas-Gedrosia

    Me = 33.26
    You = 33.29
    M876120 = 37.81
    M790508 = 31.68
    M721423 = 35.26
    M641655 = 32.79
    M414688 = 35.77


    Who is 'M876120'? Does he/she have some distant Persian ancestors???
    No, 100% Feyli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Well, as Anatolian EN, Zagros and late upper Paleolithic Caucasian have Basal Eurasian it is possible the acquired that admixture in a LGM refuge. That must have been well supplied with game as the quote states. That basically rules out a lot of area's. Could indeed be the entire area you showed.

    This is the LGM vegetation map:

    yes, could well be nonsense - although "semi-arid temperate woodland or scrub" sounds kind of goaty

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    :)
    "Relatives of Zagros woman" (because she was a woman) is a normal statement that can be made without knowing gender of the relatives in question.
    Now, if he said "female relatives of Zagros woman"...
    Ah I see my mistake.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by AliShirwan View Post
    Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.
    Indeed that is something many people nowadays don't know. Just 4 decades ago it was generally an accepted fact that all Lurs are Kurds, in fact the capital of the Lurs in the Bakthiari Province is called "Shahre Kord" what basically means city of Kurds. Feylis are also considered Lors. Lor is more a cultural term and today Lors are divided into two groups "Big Lors" and "small Lors". Big Lors being so influenced by Persian that it is considered as a transition language between Persian and Kurdish nowadays. "Small Lorish" aka Laki/feyli
    still being considered South Kurdish.

    There is a legend among the Lors, Once they were one family however the two brother (reference to the Big and small Lors) had a dispute and so divided. During the talks of Sevres the maps about Kurds presented always included the Lori territories all the way into Southwest Iran. But with time and lost of identity among some Big Lors (Bakthiaris) the maps became also smaller.

    http://www.kurdistan24.com/Home-Picture/kurdistan-1.jpg
    Last edited by Alan; 07-06-16 at 02:51.

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    Some of the old admixture runs had West Asia and Gedrosia as two separate but related components. The latter was more strongly related to north European populations, the former was more often found in south/south eastern European countries like Italy, Greece, and through the Balkans. However, both were present in Europe in varying degrees. I suspect that's the difference here. Zagros is most definitely the one previously labeled West Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

    The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.
    "Kurd" refers to language not genes. Calling ancient non-Kurdish speaking people "proto-Kurds" is the same as calling Corded Ware "proto-Poles". You should call them people you think were genetically similar to modern Kurds.

    There's no way to know if people in Zagros mountains 6,000+ years ago were similar to modern Kurds if we don't have their DNA. People made the same assumption about Europe you are with Kurdistan. They assumed there's been longer genetic continuation for longer than there has been. IMO, West Asian genetics will turn out to be just as complicated as European genetics. Our Neolithic Anatolian and Paleolithic Caucasus genomes can't explain the genetics of any modern population in the Middle East. I doubt the Neolithic Iranian genome will be able to either. Our Armenian genome from 2000 BC though is very similar to modern Caucasus and North West Asian populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Papua's most likely.
    You would need to be more specific about a tribe. Some tribes are in a transition period, transition from hunting to agriculture. Women do crops and men still hunt. This is local thing though, nothing to do with European Agriculture and transfer of farming knowledge.



    Harvesting wild cereals. Pretty much well established. The size of the grains is a good indication.
    I know, farming started from harvesting of wild varieties first and wheat becoming the main staple of diet, then harvesting with specific for it tools, like a sickle. In this case they also needed to do the thrashing of wheat, and storage. Last peace of the puzzle, the planting of crops, came much later.




    Pigs weren't fed overproduction, they were herded in woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannage
    That is how Ertebolla and its cousins kept pigs.
    Sure, you can always send kids to the forest to feed pigs, but it is not efficient way to produce the bacon. Also you are risking of losing the pig to the wolves and cougars, and pig is burning fat walking miles daily.

    My theory: The reason why in Europe farmers always had farmers DNA has to do with the fact that once you farm, you own land. And with owning land comes the issue of inheritance. And that makes marriage a political question. So once you start farming your daughters become an asset in your political game. So if HGs settle near ENFs they will inevitably intermarry. The "apartheid" of farmers and HG's in Europe was only due to the fact that HGs and their later neolithic offspring didn't own land.
    .
    It explains situation back then. What about now why Natives to Canada, Australia have land and can do agriculture, or at least herding? How hard is for a hunter to be a herder?
    Looks like extremly hard.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "Kurd" refers to language not genes.
    Are you sure? I mean, I'm more fluent in Russian than in my native Kurdish language. Does this fact makes me ethnic Russian, of course not.

    I've got only a Dutch nationality and I'm also fluent in Dutch. Does this fact makes me ethnic Dutch or even ethnic West European? Of course not.


    Same with Kurdish. If someone (non-ethnic Kurd) speaks Kurdish fluently, that doesn't make him/her ethnic Kurd. Maybe one day when Kurdistan will be independent it will be possible to get a Kurdish 'nationality', and some of our neighbours will have a Kurdish nationality et. but still they will not be 'ethnic' Kurds. but that's a different topic..


    "Kurd" is an ethnolinguistic term and refers to Kurdish people, race etc.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Goga,

    How can a population in the past be the same ethnicity as one today if it didn't speak the same language? Language isn't all the determines ethnicity but it is very important.

    If you have no Kurdish language you have no Kurds. In 4000 BC there was no Kurdish language and no Kurds. There may have been people with a similar genetic makeup but that doesn't make them proto-Kurds.

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    Of course you have got the point! People evolve all the time. Modern people are very different to ancient people. If we were not evolving, we would still be monkeys and before that some other less intelligent animals. Evolution is part of our existence. I do agree with you.

    Kurds of today are not the same as Kurds 4000 years ago. Kurds of today have also some other people (not native to Zagros) in their DNA.
    Are Italians the same as the Romans of 2000 years ago? Not really, but still, the Italians are the descendants of the ancient mighty Romans.


    Why I do consider those ancient people in the Zagros mountains as proto-Kurds? Very simple. When we look at the region, the only people who are native to that region are the modern Kurds. It is the place where the Kurdish race was born. It is the place (Kurdistan Zagros Mountains) that has been continuously populated by Kurdish ancestors, non-stop, by thousands of years. People come and go, but that place, the mountains never move. Those ancient people who lived in the Zagros Mountains and stayed in the Zagros Mountains became Kurds.

    Zagros Mountains were their NATIVE homeland. And Zagros Mountains are still the NATIVE homeland of the Kurds. Kurds are not a 'bastard' race. We are ancient people, with our ancient deep roots. We have got our own roots and we know where we are from and the most important we are proud of it.



    Kurdish saying: no friends but our beloved Zagros Mountains!



    In 4000 BC people of Zagros Mountains spoke a language that was ancestral to modern Kurdish...
    Last edited by Goga; 07-06-16 at 02:04.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Kurds as a ethnicity didn't existed back than. During Bronze Age-Iron Age populations/people existed who are ancestral to nowadays Kurds.

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    Kurds are not only an ethnolinguistic group of people, but Kurds (Ezdi) are actually also an ethnoreligious group. The native Kurdish religion dates back to the times of the Sumerians, the Ubaid culture. (just google 'Sinjar' and 'Ubaid', and you will find many hits)

    Ubaid culture had links with the Leyla-Tepe and the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains in general.

    So, like Sumerians told about their divine roots from Annunaki/Nephilim, Kurdish Aryan race is also related to that of the ancient Sumerians.

    So, Kurdish 'star' race goes back at the times of the Sumerians, at least to the times of the Ubaid culture.

    And since we know that Sumerian Ubaid civilization was related to Leyla-Tepe, we have to acknowledge that those Sumerian Ubaid folks were also from the Iranian Plateau/Zagros mountains and belonged to the same race as those natives of Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.



    Kurdish race existed before the so called Bronze Age. Ubaid period existed 2000 years before the Bronze Age, at least 5500 BC.



    Sumerians Ubaid Nephilim. My NATIVE religion, the religion of Shefredin (for layman the Yezidism) is closely related to the Sumerian mythology. We also believe in 'angels' (Annunakï) who came down on earth.







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    Goga, if Kurds are not bastard race, which Races are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Goga, if Kurds are not bastard race, which Races are?
    Original races that are not living on their native URHEMAT.


    Kurds are not a 'bastard' race because they are inhabitating their ancestral homeland / URHEIMAT non-stop for thousands of years.


    We are not saying we are from China, or we are from Levant/Arabia, or that we are from Africa, or that we are from Europe, or that we are from the EurAsian Steppes (+ Central Asia).

    Kurds are saying that Kurds are from Kurdistan/Zagros Mountains and nowhere else. Kurdish and Kurdish native religion are native to their homeland. This is the highest form of having deep, deep ancient roots. Kurds are very ancient people, with very, very ancient history.


    People who have a very ancient ethnic history/language/religion native to their homeland and never moved from their homeland, belong to a very noble (highest form) race.




    I can come directly with examples, but I don't want to insult any other races. But if you read it carefully I gave you an answer to your question.

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    I can use this example without insulting any races. Let say that there's an 'American' race. It is not 'yet' a race, but let say it is a race.

    Then we can consider 'imaginative' American race as a bastard race. Why? Because most folks in America don't even know where they are from, they don't even know who they are. Who their parents/ancestors are. And the roots of the most 'rootless' people in America lies outside America (be it in Europe, Africa and Asia).

    English or Spanish are not NATIVE to America.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I am from bastard race then
    My Finno-ugric ancestors arrived to Latvia 1000-500 bce.
    My Baltic ancestors only AD.

    And then they... mixed....

    I wish I was a Kurd!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I can use this example without insulting any races. Let say that there's an 'American' race. It is not 'yet' a race, but let say it is a race.

    Then we can consider 'imaginative' American race as a bastard race. Why? Because most folks in America don't even know where they are from, they don't even know who they are. Who their parents/ancestors are. And the roots of the most 'rootless' people in America lies outside America (be it in Europe, Africa and Asia).

    English or Spanish are not NATIVE to America.
    Firstly I think its more apt to use mixed race rather then 'bastard' race.
    Secondly the idea of a pure race could be genetically disastrous according to many genealogists and if it goes long enough can destroy a whole people slowly but surely. Its not something desirable in Nature as a whole.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Firstly I think its more apt to use mixed race rather then 'bastard' race.
    Secondly the idea of a pure race could be genetically disastrous according to many genealogists and if it goes long enough can destroy a whole people slowly but surely. Its not something desirable in Nature as a whole.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding
    Nothing wrong with a little bit race mixing.

    It is different from a 'bastard' race. A bastard race is when you don't know who you are and where you (or some of your parent/ancestors ) are from.


    A little bit race mixing is very healthy when a 'native' receiver of some new genes (a minor gene flow) doesn't leave (abandon) it's native ancestral homeland and doesn't forget it's own roots and language.




    It's disgusting and a big shame when a race forgets it's own language and it's own roots!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    A little bit race mixing is very healthy when a 'native' receiver of some new genes (a minor gene flow) doesn't leave (abandon) it's native ancestral homeland and doesn't forget it's own roots and language.
    How is life in Nederlands? :)

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I am from bastard race then
    My Finno-ugric ancestors arrived to Latvia 1000-500 bce.
    My Baltic ancestors only AD.

    And then they... mixed....

    I wish I was a Kurd!
    ???

    How native is Latvian to Latvia? As far as I know Latvian is only spoken in Latvia. At least Latvian is not spoke as native language outside Latvia.


    Take Turkish, or Arabic. Turkish is NOT native to West Asia. It is native to the Altai region. Turkic is spoken by native people of the Altai region. Those Turks (Turkish speakers) who live in their ancestral native homeland Altai are not a bastard race. While people in Turkey, who were once Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Slavs etc. and forgot their language and started to speak Turkic language are lost people. They forgot their ancestors, while they speak foreign language as their native language.


    Same with the Arabs. Arabic is actually NATIVE to Yemen. Those who speak Arabic outside the Arabian urheimat in Arabia/Yemen, forgot who their non-Arab ancestors/daddies were, who were natives in let say the Levant. Before the Arabs, Levant was not Arabian. But people forgot their roots and started to consider themselves Arabs. same with the so called Arabs in Northern Africa. etc.



    When a child doesn't know who his daddy is or when a father denies his child, that child is a bastard child..


    This is a big shame and all people on this planet should be protected against this GENOCIDAL process.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    How is life in Nederlands? :)
    safe... but I'm in diaspora...

    After Kurdistan is freed and safe too without Muslim aggression/threat in my native homeland, someday, I'll go back to my ancestral homeland. Like Jews in diaspora went back to Israel. My ancestors left Kurdistan more than 100 years ago. 100 years ago my great great grandfather was the only survivor of his whole family. My ancestors fled Kurdistan 100 years ago not to be assimilated and to safe our race/identity. They did everything to stay pure and to stay close to our ancestors.


    It's now my duty and duty of my descendants to stay pure and respect our ancestors..

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