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Thread: Leak: Early Iranian and Turksih Farmers were Genetically Distinct

  1. #76
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    Btw, it is because of countries like the Nederlands, my ancestral Kurdistan is NOT a safe country for me.

    They should stop protecting our enemies, like they should stop protecting the Turks & Arabs. And helping our enemies in killing the Kurds.


    Countries like the Nederlands are interested in making blood money with helping to kill innocent people, women, children.


    Let me give an exapmle, countries like the Netherlands started a war in Syria only to steal money/oil/wealth from that region. So, those coutnries shouldn't wine when people from where the western countries created chaos, migrate into the countries like Holland.


    It is because of Holland, Germany, France, US etc. there are wars in the Middle East. NEVER forget that.


    What are these OIL companies doing in Kurdistan???? To HELL with them!


    Austria
    OMV

    Canada
    Groundstar Resources
    Niko Resources
    Shamaran Petroleum
    Talisman Energy
    Vast Exploration
    WesternZagros

    Norway
    DNO International

    United Kingdom
    Afren
    Gulf Keystone Petroleum
    Perenco
    Sterling Energy

    United States
    Aspect Energy
    Chevron
    Hess
    Hunt Petroleum
    Murphy Oil Corporation


    http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/lis...aqi-kurdistan/



    That's why I hate capitalism, liberalism, imperialism. Different faces of the same coin. BECAUSE of capitalism, liberalism, imperialism I must to live in diaspora now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Kurds are not only an ethnolinguistic group of people, but Kurds (Ezdi) are actually also an ethnoreligious group. The native Kurdish religion dates back to the times of the Sumerians, the Ubaid culture. (just google 'Sinjar' and 'Ubaid', and you will find many hits)
    That's an opinion not fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    That's an opinion not fact.
    What is an opinion?

    That Ezdi Kurds are an ethnoreligious group? I mean of course it is, because it is exclusively Iranid Ezdi religion. Outsiders can never become part of this religion. Ezdi religion doesn't accept people who want also to follow this religion. To be Ezdi, BOTH of you parents have to be Ezdi. This is a fact and one of the most important pillars of our religion. According to our religion mixing is a huge SIN!

    Ezdi have 2 religious centers of their faith. 1 is in Lalish and the 2nd one is in Shengal Mountains (Sinjar). Shengal Mountains (Sinjar) have always been populated by the Ezdi Kurds. Also a fact. Shengal is one the most holy lands of the Ezdi Kurds. 'Shengal' is native Kurdish name, while Arabs and other Semites are using the name 'Sinjar'.


    About Northern Shengal (Sinjar), north of the Mountains.

    " The wall and other evidence at a huge mound in northeastern Syria known as Tell Hamoukar indicate a complex government dating back at least 6,000 years. It has been known for some time that the Sinjar valley belonged to the Northern Ubaid culture. In the Sinjar plain, where Tell Hamoukar is located, civilizations are known to have existed many centuries earlier (Hassuna, Halaf, Ubaid). More than 200 sites are known. "

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raq/sinjar.htm


    https://books.google.nl/books?id=60f...sinjar&f=false

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=pMo...sinjar&f=false

    etc.


    There are thousands links between the Sumerian Mythology and the faith of Shefredin (for layman it is the Yezidism).


    Btw, Muslims are trying to destroy Shengal (Sinjar), because Muslims are jealous of the history/roots of the Ezdi Kurds.

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    I don't understand the rough history Kurds have, oppression you guys face, and your patriotism but none of that justifies twisting history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Original races that are not living on their native URHEMAT.


    Kurds are not a 'bastard' race because they are inhabitating their ancestral homeland / URHEIMAT non-stop for thousands of years.
    We can't measure how long an ethnicity has lived on their land because humans have only been writing on paper for a couple thousand years in most parts of the world or even less. 99.9% of human history is a mystery. All we have to know what happened in 99.9% of human history is old remains underground, and those remains can't tell us what ethnicity an ancient people belonged to.

    Writing from 3,000 years ago confirms Kurdish language evolved from languages that existed in Kurdistan 3,000 years ago, but there's nothing to prove or disprove the Kurdish language was in that region before 3,000 years ago.

    It's unlikely that many modern ethnicities have a single ancient ancestor. Everyone to some extent is mixed. Kurds didn't suddenly appear in Mespotamia. Kurds are a mixture of several differnt peoples who had at somepoint migrated from somewhere else into Mesoptamia. The Kurdish language has a single source, but Kurdish ancestry/genes don't have a single source. We understand European genetics because of ancient DNA and this is the case for Europeans. Italians aren't descended of a single ancestors who migrated to Italy at a certain date. Italians are a mixture of many differnt people who arrived in Italy in differnt time periods, even some who arrived in the Middle Ages.

    So in my opinion it is likely the Kurdish ethnicity didn't form till the last 3,000 years and the Kurdish genetic(and genetic makeup of their closely related neighbors) didn't form till the last 5,000 years. In the last many 100s of years and probably 1,000s of years Kurds may have stayed pure and distinct, but when you go back far enough they are mixed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    People who have a very ancient ethnic history/language/religion native to their homeland and never moved from their homeland, belong to a very noble (highest form) race.
    Kurds are native to Iran/Iraq area or whatever(I don't know the name), that's cool. You have cultural connections going back even 1,000s of years cool. Yeah that's your land, but you can't claim that Kurd's ancestors have always been there. Because there's been writing(very little writing) in your region continuously for 5,000 years we have a better historical record of the languages-ethnciies who have lived there than anywhere else. And we can see that the Kurdish language hasn't always been there. Sumerian and then Semetic languages where there before Iranian languages.

    At some-point between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago Iranian language emerged/migrated in/to your region, or they just happened to not know how to write 5,000 years ago. In all likely hood Iranian languages did arrive ultimately from North Eurasian Bronze age folk like Andronovo. This isn't a bad thing. Lots of your ancestry is probably from pre-Iranian(Like Sumerians) and the newcomers who spoke Iranian languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Sumerian and then Semetic languages where there before Iranian languages.

    At some-point between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago Iranian language emerged/migrated in/to your region, or they just happened to not know how to write 5,000 years ago. In all likely hood Iranian languages did arrive ultimately from North Eurasian Bronze age folk like Andronovo. This isn't a bad thing. Lots of your ancestry is probably from pre-Iranian(Like Sumerians) and the newcomers who spoke Iranian languages.
    No way! Sumerian predate any Indo-Iranian languages by thousands of years. And secondly, Semitic was never spoken in the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau. That's impossible! Semitic langauges are native to Levant & Arabia and came into the Mesopotamia with the Semitic Akkadians and their Semitic relatives.


    Sumerians predate the Semites by thousands of years.


    At the times of Leyla-Tepe, the Semites didn't even exist!


    Sumerians also predate the Andronovo monkeys by thousands of years.


    Indo-Iranian can't be from Andronovo, since proto-Indo-Iranian had an ergativity construction in it. While native languages in Central Asia (and even in the Western Steppes) don't have any ergativity. Turkic, Uralic, Finnic and even LATE Yamnaya-PIE languages didn't have any ergativity.

    While Indo-Iranian (modern Kurdish, Indic etc.) had (have) ergativity. So the Indo-Iranian language didn't evolve in the Steppes or in Central Asia, but in WEST Asia! Because there is also an ergativity in the Caucasian languages.



    Ergativity in the region is only NATIVE to Indo-Iranian and Caucasian languages and both groups belong as we know now to ancient CHG folks. With other words ancient Indo-Iranian was closely connected to the ancient CHG folks on the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!


    + Ancient native Iranian religions are related to Sumerians (ancient Mesopotamia) and the Iranian Palateau/Zagros Mountains (Leyla-Tepe).


    Even according to the ancient Zoroastrian East Iranian texts, Aryans were NATIVE to the Iranian Plateau. Those texts never mentioned places outside the Iranian Plateau.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...zoroastrianism



    So:

    1) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) language is related to the Iranian Plateau, due to ergativity.
    2) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) religion (the Yezidism) is related to the Zagros Mountains/Mesopotamia, due to the Sumerian connection. Even Zoroastrianism is related to West Asia.
    3) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) DNA (CHG) is related to the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Goga, if Kurds are not bastard race, which Races are?
    So you are calling Kurds who shows on various genetic calculators and studies to be one of the most homogenous ethnic group in the Near East, a bastard race because possibly WIkipedia told you? Stop being a smartass next time, if you don't know crap

    The important components that build the modern Kurds merged/fusioned together between Bronze to very late Iron Age. Afterwards they never received any important admixture from outside. That is proven by innethnic fst Distances. Not even the border managed to change that.

    @Goga

    stop flooding every freakn Thread with your nonsense. This Thread has not much to do with Kurds and any Kurdish religious minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No way! Sumerian predate any Indo-Iranian languages by thousands of years. And secondly, Semitic was never spoken in the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau. That's impossible! Semitic langauges are native to Levant & Arabia and came into the Mesopotamia with the Semitic Akkadians and their Semitic relatives.


    Sumerians predate the Semites by thousands of years.


    At the times of Leyla-Tepe, the Semites didn't even exist!


    Sumerians also predate the Andronovo monkeys by thousands of years.


    Indo-Iranian can't be from Andronovo, since proto-Indo-Iranian had an ergativity construction in it. While native languages in Central Asia (and even in the Western Steppes) don't have any ergativity. Turkic, Uralic, Finnic and even LATE Yamnaya-PIE languages didn't have any ergativity.

    While Indo-Iranian (modern Kurdish, Indic etc.) had (have) ergativity. So the Indo-Iranian language didn't evolve in the Steppes or in Central Asia, but in WEST Asia! Because there is also an ergativity in the Caucasian languages.



    Ergativity in the region is only NATIVE to Indo-Iranian and Caucasian languages and both groups belong as we know now to ancient CHG folks. With other words ancient Indo-Iranian was closely connected to the ancient CHG folks on the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!


    + Ancient native Iranian religions are related to Sumerians (ancient Mesopotamia) and the Iranian Palateau/Zagros Mountains (Leyla-Tepe).


    Even according to the ancient Zoroastrian East Iranian texts, Aryans were NATIVE to the Iranian Plateau. Those texts never mentioned places outside the Iranian Plateau.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...zoroastrianism



    So:

    1) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) language is related to the Iranian Plateau, due to ergativity.
    2) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) religion (the Yezidism) is related to the Zagros Mountains/Mesopotamia, due to the Sumerian connection. Even Zoroastrianism is related to West Asia.
    3) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) DNA (CHG) is related to the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!
    Also , anatolia , spoke no semitic, .............the hatti , Hittite and Luwian ( any any othe rminor ones ) where non-semitic


    with this, anatolia and south-caucasus show not be referred to as the middle-east
    Last edited by Sile; 08-06-16 at 08:21.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    That's why I hate capitalism, liberalism, imperialism. Different faces of the same coin. BECAUSE of capitalism, liberalism, imperialism I must to live in diaspora now!
    my friend do a favor to yourshelf,
    to find peace,

    when Greek revolt happened,
    when Makedonian struggle happened,
    when WW1 happened,
    when minor Asian campaign happened
    etc etc
    many Greeks from Diaspora came to fight, creating indepented small groups,

    now since your enthousiasmos is so high,
    your believes and ideas so strong,
    your soul does not find peace,
    do a favore to your shelf,
    go to Syrria and take a gun, and help your people there, at your homeland.
    it is the best time for you to fullfil your dream and your will,
    freedom does not come by internet posts.
    cause if you are an adult, you have that choice,

    all the above, capitalism imperialism, etc are to be blaimed for the conditions of your country,
    but not to be blaimed cause you are in diaspora (scattered) at times of war.
    Διασπορα Greek word means scattered, dispersion.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Iranians(or Persians) aren't from Aryan race, they're from Y-DNA J2 which is Semitic. They've founded the Achaemenid empire.
    Here look http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/
    %49 of the Kurds are from Y-DNA: J2 haplogroup and most of others are from K, L and H haplogroups.. there are also I(Germanic White European) haplogroup among them, most probably descended from "Prisoner of war" crusaders.
    Example: Seljuk(Turkic)-Crusader wars
    There are high amounts of R1a among the Zaza people, I think they're descended from Persianicized Turkic tribes. They're patriotic people in Turkia.
    Example: "Mahmut Yıldırım(Yeşil)"
    Fought against pkk in Turkish Secret Service: JITEM
    2903_2.jpg
    mahkemeden-yesil-icin-tutuklama-karari13391704380-h889053-640x360.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    my friend do a favor to yourshelf,
    to find peace,

    when Greek revolt happened,
    when Makedonian struggle happened,
    when WW1 happened,
    when minor Asian campaign happened
    etc etc
    many Greeks from Diaspora came to fight, creating indepented small groups,

    now since your enthousiasmos is so high,
    your believes and ideas so strong,
    your soul does not find peace,
    do a favore to your shelf,
    go to Syrria and take a gun, and help your people there, at your homeland.
    it is the best time for you to fullfil your dream and your will,
    freedom does not come by internet posts.
    cause if you are an adult, you have that choice,

    all the above, capitalism imperialism, etc are to be blaimed for the conditions of your country,
    but not to be blaimed cause you are in diaspora (scattered) at times of war.
    Διασπορα Greek word means scattered, dispersion.
    No offence but you really don't know the situation in Kurdistan and the middle-east first hand like I or other Kurdish members do. It cannot be compared to Greeks fighting the Ottomans back in the 19th century. Since we Kurds didn't have support of the British and Russian empire, like how you did.

    Second you yourself haven't partaken in any of thos rebellions, albeit you weren't born then. None the less you cannot talk as if you would fight but not have the military experience yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    @Goga

    ... This Thread has not much to do with Kurds and any Kurdish religious minority.
    There was a time when our native Kurdish Aryan religion was a MAJORITY in Kurdistan, never forget that..

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonici View Post
    Iranians(or Persians) aren't from Aryan race, they're from Y-DNA J2 which is Semitic. They've founded the Achaemenid empire.
    Here look http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/
    %49 of the Kurds are from Y-DNA: J2 haplogroup and most of others are from K, L and H haplogroups.. there are also I(Germanic White European) haplogroup among them, most probably descended from "Prisoner of war" crusaders.
    Example: Seljuk(Turkic)-Crusader wars
    There are high amounts of R1a among the Zaza people, I think they're descended from Persianicized Turkic tribes. They're patriotic people in Turkia.
    Example: "Mahmut Yıldırım(Yeşil)"
    Fought against pkk in Turkish Secret Service: JITEM
    2903_2.jpg
    mahkemeden-yesil-icin-tutuklama-karari13391704380-h889053-640x360.jpg
    That isn't even true. J2 appeared in the middle-east some 22,000 years ago. The semitic sub-race/linguistic groups didn't even exist at that time.

    Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. The oldest known J2 sample at present comes from Kotias Klde in Georgia and dates from c. 9700 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)), confirming that haplogroup J2 was already found around the Caucasus during the Mesolithic period. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent. This expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE) from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia, rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant (which appears to be linked rather to haplogroups G2 and E1b1b). A second expansion of J2 could have occured with the advent of metallurgy, notably copper working (from the Lower Danube valley, central Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia), and the rise of some of the oldest civilisations.

    t is very likely that J2a, J1 and G2a were the three dominant male lineages the Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes culture, which expanded from the South Caucasus to eastern Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia and the western Iran. From then on, J2 men would have definitely have represented a sizeable portion of the population of Bronze and Iron Age civilizations such as the Hurrians, the Assyrians or the Hittites. It is very possible that bronze technology spread from the South Caucasus across the Iranian plateau until the Indus Valley, giving rise to the Harappan Civilisation (see below).

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by AliShirwan View Post
    No offence but you really don't know the situation in Kurdistan and the middle-east first hand like I or other Kurdish members do. It cannot be compared to Greeks fighting the Ottomans back in the 19th century. Since we Kurds didn't have support of the British and Russian empire, like how you did.

    Second you yourself haven't partaken in any of thos rebellions, albeit you weren't born then. None the less you cannot talk as if you would fight but not have the military experience yourself.
    I think you do not know at all about support,
    and you did not read international news,

    sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I think you do not know at all about support,
    and you did not read international news,

    sorry.
    I think he misunderstood you.

    What you told me, I've heard also many times from my family members. So, I'm 100% sure you meant it good.


    But there is one thing. The only opportunity for me to be in Kurdistan is to fight for PKK or to fight for Ezdi Kurds in Shengal. At this moment they need me there only as a 'soldier'.

    But the problem is, I'm not a soldier/warrior. I've family members who fight with PKK against the Turkic Muslims (DAESH) and Arab Muslims (DAESH) on the frontline. So my family is doing its duty. And there are 50 million Kurds, so I'm sure that among those 50 million Kurds there are many million natural born warriors much better than me who are willing to fight.

    At this moment, as a NON-Muslim, it's very dangerous for me to be in Kurdistan. I think I would be dead within 1 week. Less than 2 years ago, Sunni Muslims committed a GENOCIDE on my people! I'm contributing to Kurdistan my 'own' way and as long I do exist I will continue contribute to Kurdistan.

    After the war Kurdistan needs intellectuals (high educated people) and people who will rebuild Kurdistan from the ashes. But don't think that my family doesn't give blood for Kurdistan, we did and we still do!



    And soon we wil be victorious! Turanic Turks and Turkey are almost defeated. They will go back to the Altai, where they are from and do belong. It is just a matter of time..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    True. CHG ancestry in Yamnaya Horizon came from Caucasus/Maykop. But there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau (Leyla-Tepe) into the Maykop. There is an archeological evidence for it.



    I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

    The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.

    I read this thread bit by bit by lack of time. Before making conclusions I try to understand some points. Helas I have not at hand a survey about Maykop auDNA. I have a metric comparisons of crania by Kazarnitsky 2010 from diverse cultures of the Maykop period and other cultures of the Steppes or surroundings. In his plotting based upon principal componants he puts Maykop of Novosvobonaya

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry:it's following:
    ... He puts Maykop Novosvobodnaya somewhat at the opposite of 2 people of Caucasus (Ginchi Dagestan and Samtavro Georgia) and closer to two Turkmenistan sites: Karadepe and Geoksyur, concerning one axis; closer yes but it stays a borderline. On the other axis, it's true, all these sites are on the same side. As a whole he finds that the most of Maykop people are rather 'mediterraneanlike' roughly said and are distinct from all the diverse Pit Grave and Catacombes groups of Russia, Ukraina, N-E Caucasus (Kalmykia) taken as a mean what does not exclude some slight admixture in some cases. I say: "distinct" doesn't mean: "absolutely without any genealogical link". For him, Maykop was at first imported by demic process and not acculturation. It remains that his Maykop is globally closer to some of the Catacombes and Pit Graves groups than to the 2 Caucasus ones! Still we have the question of geographical origin of Maykop people. Why are they not closer to contemporaneous Caucasus population? New populations arrived more recently into Caucasus? Heavier imput of the high statured 'east-mediterranean' type in Maykop people? People from the metallic-agricultural complex of BMAC passed through South Caspian westwards into N-W Caucasus? Were the Zagros people OF THE TIME of the same human precise sub-stock?
    I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
    An East Caspian (rather Southeast?) impulse (which could explain the heavy presence of R1b and R1a at some stages in I-E history) and a two ways FIRST dispersion (South and North the Caspian) could MAYBE resolve the question of the 2 Y-R1B-L23 separated ligneages "sons"? The 'gedrosia' phantom in North(west)ern European populations could also have its explanation here? I think R1a (even Z93)in fact was rather in middle-east of the Steppes before getting South-West in Iran... the steppic auDNA of their more Western cousins could explain the lack of 'gedrosia' in today Baltic-N-Slavic populations, knowing this component was already greatly erased among R1b predecessors during their expansion for the same reasons.
    Sorry. I think at loud voice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I think he misunderstood you.

    What you told me, I've heard also many times from my family members. So, I'm 100% sure you meant it good.


    But there is one thing. The only opportunity for me to be in Kurdistan is to fight for PKK or to fight for Ezdi Kurds in Shengal. At this moment they need me there only as a 'soldier'.

    But the problem is, I'm not a soldier/warrior. I've family members who fight with PKK against the Turkic Muslims (DAESH) and Arab Muslims (DAESH) on the frontline. So my family is doing its duty. And there are 50 million Kurds, so I'm sure that among those 50 million Kurds there are many million natural born warriors much better than me who are willing to fight.

    At this moment, as a NON-Muslim, it's very dangerous for me to be in Kurdistan. I think I would be dead within 1 week. Less than 2 years ago, Sunni Muslims committed a GENOCIDE on my people! I'm contributing to Kurdistan my 'own' way and as long I do exist I will continue contribute to Kurdistan.

    After the war Kurdistan needs intellectuals (high educated people) and people who will rebuild Kurdistan from the ashes. But don't think that my family doesn't give blood for Kurdistan, we did and we still do!



    And soon we wil be victorious! Turanic Turks and Turkey are almost defeated. They will go back to the Altai, where they are from and do belong. It is just a matter of time..
    I see, I know that role, we called it somehow as 'the back up organisation',
    'the outer shelter'

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sorry:it's following:
    ... He puts Maykop Novosvobodnaya somewhat at the opposite of 2 people of Caucasus (Ginchi Dagestan and Samtavro Georgia) and closer to two Turkmenistan sites: Karadepe and Geoksyur, concerning one axis; closer yes but it stays a borderline. On the other axis, it's true, all these sites are on the same side. As a whole he finds that the most of Maykop people are rather 'mediterraneanlike' roughly said and are distinct from all the diverse Pit Grave and Catacombes groups of Russia, Ukraina, N-E Caucasus (Kalmykia) taken as a mean what does not exclude some slight admixture in some cases. I say: "distinct" doesn't mean: "absolutely without any genealogical link". For him, Maykop was at first imported by demic process and not acculturation. It remains that his Maykop is globally closer to some of the Catacombes and Pit Graves groups than to the 2 Caucasus ones! Still we have the question of geographical origin of Maykop people. Why are they not closer to contemporaneous Caucasus population? New populations arrived more recently into Caucasus? Heavier imput of the high statured 'east-mediterranean' type in Maykop people? People from the metallic-agricultural complex of BMAC passed through South Caspian westwards into N-W Caucasus? Were the Zagros people OF THE TIME of the same human precise sub-stock?
    I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
    An East Caspian (rather Southeast?) impulse (which could explain the heavy presence of R1b and R1a at some stages in I-E history) and a two ways FIRST dispersion (South and North the Caspian) could MAYBE resolve the question of the 2 Y-R1B-L23 separated ligneages "sons"? The 'gedrosia' phantom in North(west)ern European populations could also have its explanation here? I think R1a (even Z93)in fact was rather in middle-east of the Steppes before getting South-West in Iran... the steppic auDNA of their more Western cousins could explain the lack of 'gedrosia' in today Baltic-N-Slavic populations, knowing this component was already greatly erased among R1b predecessors during their expansion for the same reasons.
    Sorry. I think at loud voice!
    Brother you are wrong. You forgot these studies?


    " He questioned the resemblance between the Maikop crania from Evdyk I and those from Syezzheye and Zadono-Avilovsky; and he believed the former to resemble crania from the Caucasus, the Near East, and Southwestern Central Asia, being closest to those from Samtavro, Georgia, and Ginchi, Dagestan (Khokhlov, 2002).

    T.I. Alekseyeva (2004) measured a male skull from mound 13 burial 5 at Nezhinskaya near Kislovodsk (the plastic reconstruction of this individual’s appearance was made by L.T. Yablonsky), as well as two crania (male and female) from mound 70 burial 1 at Zamankul in Northern Ossetia. All these crania came from “Maikop– Novosvobodnaya” burials and were attributed to the Mediterranean variety of the Southern Caucasoid type which was distributed in Armenia, Georgia, Iran, and Mesopotamia during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. The heterogeneity of the Maikop group in Alexeyeva’s opinion may be due to individual variability, but also to admixture with the natives of the southeastern European steppes (Alekseyeva, 2004).

    In sum, the results of the multivariate analysis suggest that Maikop people are distinct from all the contemporary and later Eastern European groups of the steppe and forest-steppe zones. This provides an additional argument in favor of the hypothesis that Maikop burials in Kalmykia attest not merely to the cultural impact of the Maikop community on the steppe tribes (Munchaev, 1994: 168); rather, they were left by a separate group which was unrelated to the local Pit Grave population by origin. The Southern Caucasoid trait combination revealed by the Maikop series is somewhat similar to that shown by the contemporaneous groups of the Northern Caucasus and southern Turkmenia. Clearly, this does not imply a direct connection with any of these regions.

    However, the isolated position of the Maikop group in Eastern Europe, its vague resemblance to the Southern Caucasoids of the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia, and the Near Eastern cultural affinities of Maikop and Novosvobodnaya (Munchaev, 1994: 170) indirectly point to Near Eastern provenance. "


    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/...zarnitsky.html



    Or

    " Uruk migrants in the Caucasus

    During this period the South Caucasus experienced two powerful waves of Middle Eastern expansion: the first at the time of Late Neolithic culture of Sioni in the 4th-5th millennia B.C., and the second at the period of Tsopi culture in the Late Neolithic Age, at the end of the 5th and the first half of the 4th millennium B.C., which is known as the Uruk expansion era. Later, in the second half of the 4th and throughout the 3 rd millennium B.C., during the Early Bronze Age the Kura-Araxes culture of the Caucasus spread throughout the greater part of the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, northern parts of Iran, Middle East and even Europe. "

    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/...-caucasus.html





    There are also very much archeological evidences. But they are talking links between Uruk (Sumerian) and Maykop, while it's actually Leyla-Tepe on the Iranian Plateau that influenced Uruk and Maykop, we have also got evidence for that.
    Last edited by Goga; 09-06-16 at 17:08.

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    Maybe Maykop was not 100% CHG, but it was for a huge, huge (greatest) part CHG, not only native to Caucasus but also a lot CHG from the Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains (Leyla-Tepe). I'm sure we would consider those Maykop folks as 'Iranid' (Aryan) today...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
    Not sure about J, since J2 and J1 is also very, very high in the Caucasus. Nobody is sure about J



    But R1 is 100%, no 1000% from the Iranian Plateau. EVERY scholar agrees on that.


    I'm R1a*, my Y-DNA hg. R1a* is 100% NATIVE to my homeland!



    According to EVERY academic study on R1, R1 is from West Asia and more precisely from the Iranian Plateau

    Original R1 was linked to CHG, full of ANE, full of Caucaso-Gedrosia



    Here info from the 23andme DNA company.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    So you are calling Kurds who shows on various genetic calculators and studies to be one of the most homogenous ethnic group in the Near East, a bastard race because possibly WIkipedia told you? Stop being a smartass next time, if you don't know crap

    The important components that build the modern Kurds merged/fusioned together between Bronze to very late Iron Age. Afterwards they never received any important admixture from outside. That is proven by innethnic fst Distances. Not even the border managed to change that.

    @Goga

    stop flooding every freakn Thread with your nonsense. This Thread has not much to do with Kurds and any Kurdish religious minority.
    You have tendency to misinterpret my texts.
    If someone says his race is not bastard race, apparently he thinks other Races are. So, I just asked to specify which :)
    Sorry if you understood it on some strange way :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sorry:it's following:
    ... He puts Maykop Novosvobodnaya somewhat at the opposite of 2 people of Caucasus (Ginchi Dagestan and Samtavro Georgia) and closer to two Turkmenistan sites: Karadepe and Geoksyur, concerning one axis; closer yes but it stays a borderline. On the other axis, it's true, all these sites are on the same side. As a whole he finds that the most of Maykop people are rather 'mediterraneanlike' roughly said and are distinct from all the diverse Pit Grave and Catacombes groups of Russia, Ukraina, N-E Caucasus (Kalmykia) taken as a mean what does not exclude some slight admixture in some cases. I say: "distinct" doesn't mean: "absolutely without any genealogical link". For him, Maykop was at first imported by demic process and not acculturation. It remains that his Maykop is globally closer to some of the Catacombes and Pit Graves groups than to the 2 Caucasus ones! Still we have the question of geographical origin of Maykop people. Why are they not closer to contemporaneous Caucasus population? New populations arrived more recently into Caucasus? Heavier imput of the high statured 'east-mediterranean' type in Maykop people? People from the metallic-agricultural complex of BMAC passed through South Caspian westwards into N-W Caucasus? Were the Zagros people OF THE TIME of the same human precise sub-stock?
    I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
    An East Caspian (rather Southeast?) impulse (which could explain the heavy presence of R1b and R1a at some stages in I-E history) and a two ways FIRST dispersion (South and North the Caspian) could MAYBE resolve the question of the 2 Y-R1B-L23 separated ligneages "sons"? The 'gedrosia' phantom in North(west)ern European populations could also have its explanation here? I think R1a (even Z93)in fact was rather in middle-east of the Steppes before getting South-West in Iran... the steppic auDNA of their more Western cousins could explain the lack of 'gedrosia' in today Baltic-N-Slavic populations, knowing this component was already greatly erased among R1b predecessors during their expansion for the same reasons.
    Sorry. I think at loud voice!
    Excellent and helpful observations, Moesan. Thanks.


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    to my new "brother" Goga

    Goga :
    Brotheryou are wrong. You forgot these studies?

    Cited by Goga :
    " Hequestioned the resemblance between the Maikop crania from Evdyk I andthose from Syezzheye and Zadono-Avilovsky; and he believed the formerto resemble crania from the Caucasus, the Near East,and Southwestern Central Asia, being closest to those fromSamtavro, Georgia, and Ginchi, Dagestan (Khokhlov, 2002).
    Moesansays : She compared a Maykop skull to other cultures skulls, andfound, yes, a global resemblance to southern europoid types, nothingmore.

    Citedby Goga :
    T.I.Alekseyeva (2004) measured a male skull from mound 13 burial 5 atNezhinskaya near Kislovodsk (the plastic reconstruction of thisindividual’s appearance was made by L.T. Yablonsky), as well as twocrania (male and female) from mound 70 burial 1 at Zamankul inNorthern Ossetia. All these crania came from “Maikop–Novosvobodnaya” burials and were attributed to the Mediterraneanvariety of the Southern Caucasoid type which was distributed inArmenia, Georgia, Iran, and Mesopotamia during the Chalcolithic andEarly Bronze Age. The heterogeneity of the Maikopgroup in Alexeyeva’s opinion may be due to individual variability,but also to admixture with the natives of the southeastern Europeansteppes (Alekseyeva, 2004).
    Moesansays : the alleged type at this time (Chalco/EBA) were,according to old descriptions, on the irano-afghan type, not too farfor old 'eurafrican' type. It tends to partially exclude otherNear-Eastern types, more crossed with western gracile'mediterraneans' of European and Anatolia Neolithic. Only Georgiawould be erroneous ?
    Citedby Goga:
    Insum, the results of the multivariate analysis suggest that Maikoppeople are distinct from all the contemporary and later EasternEuropean groups of the steppe and forest-steppe zones.This provides an additional argument in favor of the hypothesis thatMaikop burials in Kalmykia attest not merely to the cultural impactof the Maikop community on the steppe tribes (Munchaev, 1994: 168);rather, they were left by a separate group which was unrelated to thelocal Pit Grave population by origin. The SouthernCaucasoid trait combination revealed by the Maikop series is somewhatsimilar to that shown by the contemporaneous groupsof the Northern Caucasus and southern Turkmenia.Clearly, this does not imply a directconnection with any of these regions.
    However,the isolated position of the Maikop group in Eastern Europe,
    itsvague resemblance to the Southern Caucasoids ofthe Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia, and theNear Eastern cultural affinities of Maikop and Novosvobodnaya(Munchaev, 1994: 170) indirectly point to Near Eastern provenance."
    Moesan says:
    Kazarnitskycited the above lines you cited yourself. An did not say, as I wrotemyself, the contrary concerning demic moves frome elsewhere thanthe Steppes. Here we agree.The fact remains that on some figure provided by him, the moreprecise evidence(distance) I cited appears clearlyand not the fruit of myimagination : Maykop of Novosvobodnaya is closer to EasternCaspian than to Western Caspian=Caucasus of the same time.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/...zarnitsky.html




    Gogacited
    " Uruk migrants in the Caucasus »
    Duringthis period the South Caucasus experienced two powerful waves ofMiddle Eastern expansion: the first at the time of Late Neolithicculture of Sioni in the 4th-5th millennia B.C., and the second at theperiod of Tsopi culture in the Late Neolithic Age, at the end of the5th and the first half of the 4th millennium B.C., which is known asthe Uruk expansion era. Later, in the second half of the 4th andthroughout the 3 rd millennium B.C., during the Early Bronze Age theKura-Araxes culture of the Caucasus spread throughout the greaterpart of the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, northern parts of Iran,Middle East and even Europe. "
    Moesansays : the « climbing northwards » of someNear-Eastern people (Uruk?), proved by archeology atleast at the cultural level, could explain the less typically'west-asian' ('gedrosia'?) aspect and surely autosomal inheritage ofsome Caucasus populations (lost of a part of ancient CHG?). I see(guess) rather the Kura-Araxes people as linked to East caspian, moreCHG and less « near-eastern-drifted » and cause of theMaykop people situation. Other itching question : areKura-Araxes people PIE-speaking : nothing less sure !...So, were Maykop people the PIE language promotors ???
    Idon't find back the abstract I red and the two axis plotting I've athand on paper, but I verified it and confirm my post, whatever thevalue of sorts of things (I think they have some worth concerningpopulation in close enough place and time). Here under a smallestabstract confirming that even if close enough compared to more remoteplaces, Caucasus is not identical to Maykop.
    Samefor Turkmenistan places, spite I insist on his plotting they werecloser to Maykop. I don't know how to interprete his « parallels… to the Near East » in this precise phrase. A generalstatement about 'mediterranean' vague resemblances ?
    TheMaikop crania revisited :





    ABSTRACT: Measurements of crania of people associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikop culture of the Northern Caucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males, new and previously published, were compared with those concerning chronologically and geographically related people using the canonical variate analysis. The Maikop series turned out to be isolated and no close parallels to it were found among the Bronze Age groups, either from the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe or from the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia. While certain parallels seem to point to the Near East, they are too few to warrant definite conclusions.
    Nopreview · Article · Mar 2010 · Archaeology Ethnology andAnthropology of Eurasia A.A. Kazarnitsky

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    ABSTRACT: Measurementsof crania of people associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikopculture of the Northern Caucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males,newand previously published,were compared with those concerning chronologically andgeographically related people using the canonical variate analysis.The Maikop series turned out to be isolatedand no close parallels to it were found among the Bronze Age groups,either from the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe orfrom the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia.While certain parallels seem to point to the Near East, they are toofew to warrant definite conclusions
    KAZARNITSKY 2010 -

    the archeological links between successive populations doesn't prove tight genetic connexions. But it's true Grigoryev linked archeology of 2000BC and subsequent Steppes to southeastern Caspian, linking this last archeologic region to Mesopotamia North Near-Ëast previous stages: difficult to say when and where to link OR NOT to link archeological artefacts to ethnicity. Always the same problem and it's the cause of my prudence.
    Goga, I seriously NEED the scientific data concerning your constant affirmations of Y-R1 born in Iranian plateau or, why not, Zagros. I'm not very found of this kind of affirmations: have you found EDEN? Some conclusions about "variance" old calculations and branching dates deserves more caution.




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    ABSTRACT: Measurementsof crania of people associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikopculture of the Northern Caucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males,newand previously published,were compared with those concerning chronologically andgeographically related people using the canonical variate analysis.The Maikop series turned out to be isolatedand no close parallels to it were found among the Bronze Age groups,either from the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe orfrom the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia.While certain parallels seem to point to the Near East, they are toofew to warrant definite conclusions

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