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Thread: Leak: Early Iranian and Turksih Farmers were Genetically Distinct

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Leak: Early Iranian and Turksih Farmers were Genetically Distinct

    The Neolithic Revolution developed among geographically adjacent but genetically distinct populations

    Now we have DNA from Neolithic farmers from Barcin Turkey and Zagros Mountaisn in Iran. They lived 1200 miles apart from each other and were genetically very distinct from each other. The Zagros Neolithic female has affinity to Paleo Caucasians, meaning she's probably descended of locals who learned how to farm. Both distinct Stone age Near Eastern populations migrated into Europe. The farmers from Turkey colonized most of Western and Southern Europe and relatives(maybe farmers) to the Zagros Neolithic woman migrated North into Russia. That's what we know so far.

    Abstract:
    The shift from hunter-gathering to food production, the so-called Neolithic Revolution, profoundly changed human societies. Whilst much is known about the mode of spread of people and domesticates into Europe during the Neolithic period, the origin of this cultural package in the Ancient Near East and Anatolia is poorly understood. By sequencing the whole genome (1.39x) of an early Neolithic woman from Ganj Dareh, in the Zagros Mountains of Iran, we show that the eastern part of the Ancient Near East was inhabited by a population genetically most similar to hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus but distinct from the Neolithic Anatolian people who later brought food production into Europe. Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region. Their high frequency of short runs of homozygosity, comparable to other early Neolithic farmers, suggests that they overwintered the Last Glacial Maximum in a climatically favourable area, where they may have received a genetic contribution from a population basal to modern Eurasians. Thus, the Neolithic package was developed by at least two genetically-distinct groups which coexisted next to each other, implying a degree of cultural yet little genetic exchange among them.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
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    Last edited by gyms; 04-06-16 at 09:52.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes ((

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    'Turkish' farmers is extremely misleading, because there were no Turks in ancient Turkey. Turks originated as well as Mongolians did in the Manchurian-Mongolian Steppe of much later days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodona View Post
    'Turkish' farmers is extremely misleading, because there were no Turks in ancient Turkey. Turks originated as well as Mongolians did in the Manchurian-Mongolian Steppe of much later days.
    I call it Turkey because that's what we call the land today. Same reason I call the other ones "Iranian" farmers.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    this seems logical to me

    pulses and cereal farmers descend from the Natufians in the Levant
    but these Natufians were not the first people to domesticate animals
    first goats and pigs were domesticated some 12000 years ago in the eastern Taunus or northern Zagros Mts
    soon after some goat herders moved to Luristan, the Ganj Dareh area
    cereal farmers moved into the area not earlier than about 10300 years ago

    the affinity to Paleo Caucasian and the presence of Basal Eurasian are interesting new elements though

    the abstract doesn't mention any dating of this old neolithic woman
    I suppose we'll learn more details after the oral presentation on 7 july
    very interesting


    I'm very interested in this one too :

    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/36139

    Eske Willerslev 1 2
    • Department of Zoology, University of Cambrigde , Cambrigde , UK
    • The Natural History Museum of Denmark, København K, COPENHAGEN, Denmark



    Research involving ancient DNA has experienced a true technological revolution in recent years through advances in the recovery of ancient DNA and, particularly, through applications of high-throughput sequencing. Formerly restricted to the analysis of only limited amounts of genetic information, ancient DNA studies have now progressed to whole-genome sequencing for an increasing number of ancient individuals and extinct species. In this talk I will provide an overview of recent findings done by my group. This concerns what we have learned on early peopling of the Americas, early peopling of Eurasia, and Australia as well the more recent human history of Europe and central Asia. I will also talk about some of our studies related to the population dynamics and extinction of the big bodied mammals (megafauna) around the end of the last Ice Age.


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    That's exactly what most of us was expecting, wasn't it? How else could we explain the Caucaso-Gedrosian (CHG-like) admixture linked to Y-haplogroups J1 and J2 in the Middle East ?
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    This is what I was saying all the time. Aryans (Kurds & Persians) are closely related to people in the Northern Caucasus.

    "Ganj Dareh" is the most southeastern part of Kurdistan. It is actually very close to the Mesopotamia




    Like I told you earlier, people (proto-Aryans) from the Iranian Plateau (Kurdish Zagros Mountains) migrated form the Iranian Plateau around the Leyla-Tepe into the Mesopotamia, Maykop and therefore via Maykop indirect into the Yamnaya Horizon. And now we have got even the GENETIC evidence for it.

    People (proto-Aryan tribes) from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains moved into the Maykop and were responsible for the rise of the civilization (Kurgans etc). in northern Caucasus. Later on those people moved into the Yamnaya Horizon.

    Those were the same people who were responsible for the rise of the Mesopotamian Civilization!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's exactly what most of us was expecting, wasn't it? How else could we explain the Caucaso-Gedrosian (CHG-like) admixture linked to Y-haplogroups J1 and J2 in the Middle East ?
    I'm sure they would have lots of Y-DNA hg. R1...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This is what I was saying all the time. Aryans (Kurds & Persians) are closely related to people in the Northern Caucasus.

    "Ganj Dareh" is the most southeastern part of Kurdistan. It is actually very close to the Mesopotamia




    Like I told you earlier, people (proto-Aryans) from the Iranian Plateau (Kurdish Zagros Mountains) migrated form the Iranian Plateau around the Leyla-Tepe into the Mesopotamia, Maykop and therefore via Maykop indirect into the Yamnaya Horizon. And now we have got even the GENETIC evidence for it.

    People (proto-Aryan tribes) from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains moved into the Maykop and were responsible for the rise of the civilization (Kurgans etc). in northern Caucasus. Later on those people moved into the Yamnaya Horizon.

    Those were the same people who were responsible for the rise of the Mesopotamian Civilization!
    However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:

    Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region.

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    Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.







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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes ((
    They can't take it through learning, but they can develop set of farming genes through couple of thousands years of evolution into farming. That was done few times independently by Natufians ENF, by East Asians and by Central Americans. This paper claims that farming was developed independently by Zagros HG group. They don't say they took farming from their neighbors, do they?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's exactly what most of us was expecting, wasn't it? How else could we explain the Caucaso-Gedrosian (CHG-like) admixture linked to Y-haplogroups J1 and J2 in the Middle East ?
    Exactly. We are just learning their historical reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    They can't take it through learning, but they can develop set of farming genes through couple of thousands years of evolution into farming. That was done few times independently by Natufians ENF, by East Asians and by Central Americans. This paper claims that farming was developed independently by Zagros HG group. They don't say they took farming from their neighbors, do they?
    I agree. Farming did develop in those three very widespread areas of the globe, by genetically different people, but the traits necessary for it were probably the same, and the selection for those traits over thousands of years probably followed a similar path.

    That said, we've been fooled before by poorly worded abstracts. I want to wait to see the paper and the methodology before I believe that there was absolutely no genetic exchange even at that early date.

    Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.


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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states: Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region.
    Couldn't that just mean that they never moved as a disparate population into Europe and so are not like the ENF? It doesn't mean they couldn't have moved into Europe as part of an admixed group. In other words, they might have formed part of the mix that created the steppe Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    They can't take it through learning, but they can develop set of farming genes through couple of thousands years of evolution into farming. That was done few times independently by Natufians ENF, by East Asians and by Central Americans. This paper claims that farming was developed independently by Zagros HG group. They don't say they took farming from their neighbors, do they?
    it doesn't take special genes to become a farmer, at least such genes have never been identified
    it takes a different mindset, organised, unlike the opportunisitc hunter (if that ever existed)
    that mindset comes gradually, over the generations if your tribe has been living in the right surroundings with the right climate and the right fauna and flora, and if your forefathers have developped the right tools to exploit the fauna or flora
    Natufians had sickels and grinders 10.000 year before they started farming
    in the swamps south of the lower Yangzi river people had cooking vessels more than 10.000 years before they started to grow rice
    domestication of animals was preceded by selective hunting techniques for several 1000 years, except maybe pigs

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it doesn't take special genes to become a farmer, at least such genes have never been identified
    it takes a different mindset, organised, unlike the opportunisitc hunter (if that ever existed)
    that mindset comes gradually, over the generations if your tribe has been living in the right surroundings with the right climate and the right fauna and flora, and if your forefathers have developped the right tools to exploit the fauna or flora
    You shouldn't have a problem giving us a modern example of hunter gatherer tribe who learned farming by listening and by examples without genetic transfer. Anything of last 500 years of well documented history would be fine. If farming could be learned and obviously is way more beneficial than hunting, you should try to answer this, why they don't get it do it?

    Natufians had sickels and grinders 10.000 year before they started farming
    What was the purpose of the sickle before farming?!
    in the swamps south of the lower Yangzi river people had cooking vessels more than 10.000 years before they started to grow rice
    Is harvesting part of farming?
    domestication of animals was preceded by selective hunting techniques for several 1000 years, except maybe pigs
    Nope, domestication of animals was preceded by farmers and their sedentary lifestyle. Also, overproduction of food is necessary to feed the pigs, which only happens in agriculture. You can also prove your point by presenting HG tribe with domesticated animals, and I don't mean pets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree. Farming did develop in those three very widespread areas of the globe, by genetically different people, but the traits necessary for it were probably the same, and the selection for those traits over thousands of years probably followed a similar path.

    That said, we've been fooled before by poorly worded abstracts. I want to wait to see the paper and the methodology before I believe that there was absolutely no genetic exchange even at that early date.

    Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.
    You are right. I took what they implied. However they did said, as you noticed, that these populations shared some genetic exchange the "Basal Eurasian". I wish they put a date on the contact. If it was late enough it could mean transfer farmer knowledge, technology and genetics from ENF (Natufians).
    Hope we see the paper soon with all the details. Perhaps they have analyzed more that just one woman.

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    Another kind of farming,

    the maize and the teosinte,

    well it is known that was farming, with all characteristics,
    they also did selective farming since e known that they choose the kernels to use next year for reproduction,
    so central Balsas river valley is another place were farming was developed, away from old world,




    the same method we know about teonsite and corn, might also used for barley wheat ζεα σικαλις
    to be selective evolution of αγανα,

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    so both cases at old, as at new world, show that early farming was a knowledge of selection that was known to certain clans, and passed through generation knowldge transimission,
    even the days when they need to 'reproduce' the 'treasure', even the kind of soil

    Irrigation which is the second part of farming, comes much later as a second farming boom,

    watching the story of corn at new world, a world that we could observe, with hunter/gatherers, miners, and farmers, and the spread of corn farming,
    I think that farming indeed was a treasure that some 'haplo' used to survive and win 'nature's selection' since the knowledge was a secret that passed from progonoi to apogonoi, (elders to youngers, possibly the selection was done by women, since in all ancient religions are known as gift of Δημητρα Cerres etc,)
    but that knowledge as most knowldge, one day spreads,

    by the above i do not mean that some haplo are blessed with genes for farming, or with scientific selection of reproduction,
    but some 'Hg' might evolute different due to some knowledge, or enviroment etc.


    PS
    teosinte and corn have the same number of chromosomes
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodona View Post
    'Turkish' farmers is extremely misleading, because there were no Turks in ancient Turkey. Turks originated as well as Mongolians did in the Manchurian-Mongolian Steppe of much later days.
    That's correct

    But there are people in the forum who will never understand this,..............they think modern national borders and people have been the same since the ancients
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:

    " the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations "
    Yeah. First of all, most Europeans have not so much of 'Yamnaya ancestry'.

    Secondly, they are talking about "DIRECT" genetic contribution. But there was no direct contribution. Because it was via Yamnaya, so we talk about in-direct contribution, via Maykop/Yamnaya and then some into Europe


    People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

    Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

    But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

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    As bibicleur I don't see (to date) what are the specific "farmers genes". I conceive more easily some convergent evolutions by way-of-life acting and selecting common ancient genes or different genes having the same effect. Farming I think was not born a blessed morning but was the result of long time of observations and hazards and thoughts favoured by specific environments. So I can understand why Hgs were not so attracted by agriculture at first: it was not THEIR proper evolution. Wesee today that individuals transpoed in new environments can change very easily of habits when entire communities stayed in their original environment cannot so easily. Only quickly built opinion.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.
    Yeah, those from the ancient Mesopotamia and BMAC who called themselves so called "ARYANS'' (Medes, Mitanni, Kassites, Persians etc.) were actually native to and originally from the Zagros Mountains.

    But I was talking more about those who migrated into the Maykop/Yamnaya.


    In West Asia we can find a lot of ancient R1a* and R1b*. The R1a* to which I do belong is ancestral to R1a in Europe. It is not from the Steppes at all, but native to West Asia. So we can assume and it is actually widely accepted by the 'true' educated scientists (not amateur bloggers) that R1* evolved in West Asia, somewhere around the Iranian Plateau.

    So, that's why I'm saying that proto-Aryan people (proto-Kurd/proto-Persians/SUMERIANS???) from the Zagros Mountains in Kurdistan, who invaded the Mesopotamia (Sumerians, Mitanni, Umman Manda, Kassites, Guti etc.), BMAC (Eastern Aryans/proto-Indic people) in southcentral Asia and Maykop/Yamnaya Horizon were actually J2, R1b, and maybe R1a-something, J1-something folks....


    R1b around Yamnaya/Maykop was from the Iranian Plateau, since R1b even in Europe is, after more than 4000 years still connected to 'GEDROSIA' component.


    "GEDROSIA" in Western Europe has to be from 'somewhere' and I'm sure it is directly from Maykop/Yamnaya and indirectly from the Iranian Plateau and is connected to R1b in Western Europe...


    The rest you can see my previous response above this response...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Couldn't that just mean that they never moved as a disparate population into Europe and so are not like the ENF? It doesn't mean they couldn't have moved into Europe as part of an admixed group. In other words, they might have formed part of the mix that created the steppe Indo-Europeans.
    Exactly, this was actually the case. Yamnaya folks were already 'hybrid' people. Yamnaya was NOT pure at all. And most Europeans don't even have much of the Yamnaya ancestry.

    So some Indo-European speaking people in Europe could have some ancestry (GEDROSIA-component) directly from the Yamnaya, but INdirectly from Zagros Mountains!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.
    CHG and Anatolia_Neolithic have the same amount of Basal Eurasian, so one couldn't have received Basal Eurasian from the other. There's lots of common ancestry between EEF and CHG that European and Siberian HGs lack but their relationship is still pretty distant. One of our CHG genomes lived 13,000 years ago which long before farming existed, so Basal Eurasian did not expand with farming. I don't think it has a special relationship with farming, besides Basal Eurasian first appearing in Europe with farming.

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