Leak: Early Iranian and Turksih Farmers were Genetically Distinct

[Alan]

However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:

There are several key words in this sentence. 1. the little word direct, which implies they didn't contributed directly as Anatolian_Levant farmers to the European continent but rather indirect and in lower percentage, in form of maybe Mykop to Yamnaya. 2. What I have learned in these papers is, they distinguish between Europe and Eurasian Steppes. When they talk of EUrope they generally mean the lands west of Anatolia. And they refer to the European and Asian Steppes simply as Eurasian Steppes. So I kinda believe they don't really talk about the Eurasian Steppes here when they speak of Europe.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Papua's most likely.



Harvesting wild cereals. Pretty much well established. The size of the grains is a good indication.



Pigs weren't fed overproduction, they were herded in woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannage
That is how Ertebolla and its cousins kept pigs.

My theory: The reason why in Europe farmers always had farmers DNA has to do with the fact that once you farm, you own land. And with owning land comes the issue of inheritance. And that makes marriage a political question. So once you start farming your daughters become an asset in your political game. So if HGs settle near ENFs they will inevitably intermarry. The "apartheid" of farmers and HG's in Europe was only due to the fact that HGs and their later neolithic offspring didn't own land.

You see this clearly in the DNA results: The later you get into the neolithic the more HG DNA farmers get.

Indeed.
IMO it is very likely that if the farmers from SW Asia hadn't come to Europe, Villabrunans would have started farming themselves at some point.
They were allready sedentary. They cleared some lands to atract game like deer and boar and to stimalute growth of hazelnuts. They were quite organised and methodic to put traps for fish and small game. They were at the stage where Natufians were before the youngest dryas.

 

[arvistro]

Have you found some stone tables which listed all the genders of the individuals which went for the migration? :grin:

"Relatives of Zagros woman" (because she was a woman) is a normal statement that can be made without knowing gender of the relatives in question.
Now, if he said "female relatives of Zagros woman"...

 

[AliShirwan]

Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.

Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.

 

[epoch]

There are several key words in this sentence. 1. the little word direct, which implies they didn't contributed directly as Anatolian_Levant farmers to the European continent but rather indirect in form of maybe Mykop to Yamnaya. 2. What I have learned in these papers is, they distinguish between Europe and Eurasian Steppes. When they talk of EUrope they generally mean the lands west of Anatolia. And they refer to the European and Asian Steppes simply as Eurasian Steppes. So I kinda believe they don't really talk about the Eurasian Steppes here when they speak of Europe.

It states:

Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region.

Mind you, it is a pre-announcement. Let's not read too much in it yet. They will probably release it and we'll do all the D-stats.

EDIT: Back to the BBQ.

EDIT2: The pre-announcement also mentions:

Their high frequency of short runs of homozygosity, comparable to other early Neolithic farmers, suggests that they overwintered the Last Glacial Maximum in a climatically favourable area, where they may have received a genetic contribution from a population basal to modern Eurasians.

Now really back to the BBQ.

 

[Goga]

Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.

How much 'ANE' do Feylis and Lurs have compared to other Kurds?

Of all West Asians Northern Caucasians have the highest percentage of ANE. Kurds and Persians have a little bit lower than Northern Caucasians.

Once I stated that ANE in Kurds was very ancient and native to Kurds, Kurdistan (Zagros). Kurds had also as much ANE as Northern Caucasians maybe even more, but after mixing with the ancient Anatolian people the ANE component in Kurds lowered some percent (%) points.


I'm sure that Gedrosia, ANE etc. is related to the ancient CHG folks..

 

[Greying Wanderer]

But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes ((

I think recent history has shown nomadic or semi-nomadic HGs don't take to farming that well but maybe there's a difference between those and HGs who are already sedentary?

Turn it the other way round and instead of thinking about specific farmer genes say for the sake of argument there are/were various kinds of "itchy feet" genes that were/are high frequency among HGs (e.g. ADD) then sedentary HGs might lose those genes over time thus pre-adapting them for farming.

If that was the case then farming would most likely have started among HGs who were already sedentary for some reason.

So the question becomes what environments might have created sedentary HGs?

I'd say it would have to be environments that had a static food source beneficial enough to have effectively domesticated the local humans

e.g. a valley full of date, fig, apple, pear, peach, acorn etc trees.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

we show that the eastern part of the Ancient Near East was inhabited by a population genetically most similar to hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus but distinct from the Neolithic Anatolian people who later brought food production into Europe.

The two points that strike me are

1) either farming spread between the east/west parts of this region without gene flow or there were at least two groups who developed farming independently

2) in the eastern part of the region either
- there was a set of widespread but locally drifted CHG-like populations who developed farming independently (or picked it up from one group without gene flow)
or
- a CHG-like population somewhere developed partial farming e.g. goat herding, then spread out and settled over a wide area with just that and later their drifted descendants domesticated whatever happened to be around where they'd settled (eventually creating the full neolithic package).

hey overwintered the Last Glacial Maximum in a climatically favourable area, where they may have received a genetic contribution from a population basal to modern Eurasians

As a pet theory I'm inclined to the proto-farmer goat-herder option where a CHG-like population connected to ydna J expanded rapidly from a source region with goat herds over a very wide area and then the full neolithic package developed later from that base.

If correct I'd guess the source region would be somewhere in the wild goat range

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Capra_range_map2.jpg

Personally I think the source region (if there was one) is most likely adjacent/near the Himalayas (mountain mommas) but that's just a guess.

 

[AliShirwan]

How much 'ANE' do Feylis and Lurs have compared to other Kurds?

Of all West Asians Northern Caucasians have the highest percentage of ANE. Kurds and Persians have a little bit lower than Northern Caucasians.

Once I stated that ANE in Kurds was very ancient and native to Kurds, Kurdistan (Zagros). Kurds had also as much ANE as Northern Caucasians maybe even more, but after mixing with the ancient Anatolian people the ANE component in Kurds lowered some percent (%) points.


I'm sure that Gedrosia, ANE etc. is related to the ancient CHG folks..

Here are all the Feylis so far tested, this is the ANE.(mine included is the first one):

Mdlp project k13 ultimate

Me

#	Population	Percent
1	ANE	34.52
2	Caucas-Gedrosia	33.29
3	NearEast	13.39
4	ENF	11.48
5	ASI	3.67
6	Subsaharian	2.33

M876120

#	Population	Percent
1	Caucas-Gedrosia	37.81
2	ANE	34.09
3	NearEast	13.58
4	ENF	8.31
5	ASI	4.05
6	Subsaharian	2.03

M790508

#	Population	Percent
1	ANE	36.63
2	Caucas-Gedrosia	31.68
3	NearEast	12.13
4	ENF	9.64
5	ASI	6.65
6	Subsaharian	2.11
7	WHG-UHG	1.17

M721423

#	Population	Percent
1	Caucas-Gedrosia	35.26
2	ANE	33.45
3	NearEast	13.34
4	ENF	9.80
5	ASI	4.75
6	Subsaharian	1.56

M641655

#	Population	Percent
1	ANE	35.59
2	Caucas-Gedrosia	32.79
3	NearEast	12.10
4	ENF	11.30
5	ASI	5.43
6	Subsaharian	1.75
7	WHG-UHG	1.00

M414688

#	Population	Percent
1	Caucas-Gedrosia	35.77
2	ANE	32.65
3	NearEast	12.11
4	ENF	10.82
5	ASI	5.47
6	Subsaharian	1.81

I personally believe we have links to the general Eastern caucasus region. Since it seems like so far 80% are j1* and we tend to have alot of caucasus input, aswell as gedrosia input. I will wait for my ftdna result to come back in a few days.

 

[epoch]

The two points that strike me are

1) either farming spread between the east/west parts of this region without gene flow or there were at least two groups who developed farming independently

2) in the eastern part of the region either
- there was a set of widespread but locally drifted CHG-like populations who developed farming independently (or picked it up from one group without gene flow)
or
- a CHG-like population somewhere developed partial farming e.g. goat herding, then spread out and settled over a wide area with just that and later their drifted descendants domesticated whatever happened to be around where they'd settled (eventually creating the full neolithic package).



As a pet theory I'm inclined to the proto-farmer goat-herder option where a CHG-like population connected to ydna J expanded rapidly from a source region with goat herds over a very wide area and then the full neolithic package developed later from that base.

If correct I'd guess the source region would be somewhere in the wild goat range

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Capra_range_map2.jpg

Personally I think the source region (if there was one) is most likely adjacent/near the Himalayas (mountain mommas) but that's just a guess.

Well, as Anatolian EN, Zagros and late upper Paleolithic Caucasian have Basal Eurasian it is possible the acquired that admixture in a LGM refuge. That must have been well supplied with game as the quote states. That basically rules out a lot of area's. Could indeed be the entire area you showed.

This is the LGM vegetation map:

 

[Silesian]

Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.

Someone posted on another thread that the early Iranian sample is in the 5.4% region on the map below, adjacent to the Lurs. Or where Laks live.
I'm not knowledgeable at all; Are Laks and Lurs also interchangeable Kurdish tribes ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laks_(Iran)
Below is a rough map of Lur frequency.

 

[AliShirwan]

@SILESIAN,

Ok let me try to explain this the best and most simple way I can. In terms of Laks, technically you would classify them as a "sub-group" of Kurdish or as others may like to call them "sub-ethnic group" of kurds. Either way I would say the majority of Laks identify and come under the Kurdish umbrella. Since Laki is a Kurdish dialect. It is practically identical to Feyli.


Now as for Lurs, I guess it gets political but there a number of Lurs who identify as Kurds. Whence we call them Feyli Lurs. I'm not too sure of their y-dna but I assume autosomally they are very similar to us Feylis. For the sake of genetics, I assume it is better to divide in that sense.

Anyway Lurs are I guess a transitional people, bewteen Persian and Feyli(Kurdish), atleast their language indicates such.

No Laks and Lurs aren't interchangable.

I've done a poor job of explaining lol.

 

[Goga]

Here are all the Feylis so far tested, this is the ANE.(mine included is the first one):



I personally believe we have links to the general Eastern caucasus region. Since it seems like so far 80% are j1* and we tend to have alot of caucasus input, aswell as gedrosia input. I will wait for my ftdna result to come back in a few days.

Thanks! This is very interesting.

Kurds belong to the 'Caspian race'. We are related to the people of Leyla-Tepe culture. I'm sure that Leyla-Tepe people were also the Iranian-Plateu CHG folks and belonged to the same Caspian race as Modern Kurds and Persians. It is from that area that folks migrated into the Mesopotamia, BMAC and Maykop/Yamnaya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture




I (Ezdi Kurd, from Shengal and Northern Kurdistan) have almost the same amount of ANE & Caucas-Gedrosia as you Feyli/Luri guys from SouthEast Kurdistan. This is GREAT!!! All Kurds (no matter to what dialect they do belong) are brothers.

Here are my results.

#	Population	Percent
1	ANE	33.37
2	Caucas-Gedrosia	33.26
3	ENF	13.61
4	NearEast	12.62
5	ASI	3.99
6	WHG-UHG	2.03
7	Subsaharian	1.07
8	Paleo-African	0.06

 

[Goga]

ANE

Me = 33.37
You = 34.52
M876120 = 34.09
M790508 = 36.63
M721423 = 33.45
M641655 = 35.59
M414688 = 32.65


Caucas-Gedrosia

Me = 33.26
You = 33.29
M876120 = 37.81
M790508 = 31.68
M721423 = 35.26
M641655 = 32.79
M414688 = 35.77


Who is 'M876120'? Does he/she have some distant Persian ancestors???

 

[AliShirwan]

ANE

Me = 33.37
You = 34.52
M876120 = 34.09
M790508 = 36.63
M721423 = 33.45
M641655 = 35.59
M414688 = 32.65


Caucas-Gedrosia

Me = 33.26
You = 33.29
M876120 = 37.81
M790508 = 31.68
M721423 = 35.26
M641655 = 32.79
M414688 = 35.77


Who is 'M876120'? Does he/she have some distant Persian ancestors???

No, 100% Feyli.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Well, as Anatolian EN, Zagros and late upper Paleolithic Caucasian have Basal Eurasian it is possible the acquired that admixture in a LGM refuge. That must have been well supplied with game as the quote states. That basically rules out a lot of area's. Could indeed be the entire area you showed.

This is the LGM vegetation map:

yes, could well be nonsense - although "semi-arid temperate woodland or scrub" sounds kind of goaty

 

[Alan]

"Relatives of Zagros woman" (because she was a woman) is a normal statement that can be made without knowing gender of the relatives in question.
Now, if he said "female relatives of Zagros woman"...

Ah I see my mistake.

 

[Alan]

Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.

Indeed that is something many people nowadays don't know. Just 4 decades ago it was generally an accepted fact that all Lurs are Kurds, in fact the capital of the Lurs in the Bakthiari Province is called "Shahre Kord" what basically means city of Kurds. Feylis are also considered Lors. Lor is more a cultural term and today Lors are divided into two groups "Big Lors" and "small Lors". Big Lors being so influenced by Persian that it is considered as a transition language between Persian and Kurdish nowadays. "Small Lorish" aka Laki/feyli
still being considered South Kurdish.

There is a legend among the Lors, Once they were one family however the two brother (reference to the Big and small Lors) had a dispute and so divided. During the talks of Sevres the maps about Kurds presented always included the Lori territories all the way into Southwest Iran. But with time and lost of identity among some Big Lors (Bakthiaris) the maps became also smaller.

http://www.kurdistan24.com/Home-Picture/kurdistan-1.jpg

 

[Aaron1981]

Some of the old admixture runs had West Asia and Gedrosia as two separate but related components. The latter was more strongly related to north European populations, the former was more often found in south/south eastern European countries like Italy, Greece, and through the Balkans. However, both were present in Europe in varying degrees. I suspect that's the difference here. Zagros is most definitely the one previously labeled West Asia.

 

[Fire Haired14]

I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.

"Kurd" refers to language not genes. Calling ancient non-Kurdish speaking people "proto-Kurds" is the same as calling Corded Ware "proto-Poles". You should call them people you think were genetically similar to modern Kurds.

There's no way to know if people in Zagros mountains 6,000+ years ago were similar to modern Kurds if we don't have their DNA. People made the same assumption about Europe you are with Kurdistan. They assumed there's been longer genetic continuation for longer than there has been. IMO, West Asian genetics will turn out to be just as complicated as European genetics. Our Neolithic Anatolian and Paleolithic Caucasus genomes can't explain the genetics of any modern population in the Middle East. I doubt the Neolithic Iranian genome will be able to either. Our Armenian genome from 2000 BC though is very similar to modern Caucasus and North West Asian populations.