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Thread: Upcoming paper on the Iberian Neolithic

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Upcoming paper on the Iberian Neolithic

    Beware, Fire-Haired, it's about those pesky EEF type people again. :)

    See:
    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35599

    "The transition to a farming lifestyle was one of the major episodes of innovation in the history of our species and it has been the subject of intense archaeological research for decades1. In the past few years, archaeogenetic studies have been crucial in resolving some of the longstanding questions about the Neolithisation of Europe2-6. Here, we analyse new genome sequence data from 13 early farmers from Spain and compare them to previously published modern day and ancient genomes from Europe, North Africa and the Near East. We show that the first farmers to arrive to the Iberian Peninsula during the Neolithic, followed a coastal Mediterranean route bringing farming practices with them. These Neolithic individuals show a similar genetic structure across the North, North East and South of Iberia with no evidence of north African influence. Furthermore, we observe a certain degree of genetic differentiation between Early Neolithic Iberian and Central European farmers. An indication of at least two founding populations of early Neolithic Europeans (one that arrived via the Mediterranean coast and the other via the Danube basin into Central Europe). Among all early European farmers the Iberian Neolithic groups show the highest genetic affinities to present-day Sardinians suggesting that the modern population of the island are relatively direct descendants of these early Mediterranean farmers. Later, Iberian Chalcolithic populations derive from the interbreeding between incoming farmers and native hunter-gatherers3. In turn, these Chaloclithic groups are closely related to modern day Basques whom appeared to be isolated since the Late Neolithic3. Finally, genetic similarities between Middle to Late Neolithic farmers from Ireland and Iberia potentially suggest the latter to be the origin of the Megalithic culture which spread along the Atlantic coast and later reached the British Isles and Scandinavia7."

    I have to go back and check the Hofmanova paper, but I think this is their basic conclusion as well, i.e. that there were two initial streams of the EEF into Europe. Given the population crashes in central Europe, perhaps more than half of the EEF ancestry in modern Europeans stems from the coastal Cardial route and the succeeding Megalithic one? It would vary by area in Europe, of course.

    I'll try to find the citation for that paper that claimed that the Neolithic in the Paris basin was a mix of the coastal and Danubian Neolithic groups. If someone has it to hand, could you provide it?

    As to the comment about Sardinians, they do indeed seem to be the most similar to the original EEF people, but I don't think it's because there's been continuity on the island since the Early Neolithic. As Hofmanova et al pointed out, I think, it may well be that they are actually descended from the Copper Age people of the Balkans, "Old Europe" if you weill. After the Sardinians, almost everything I've seen shows that the succeeding populations in order of similarity are the Tuscans, then the Northern Italians, then the mainland Greeks and the Iberians in various orders. I'll try to find the time to find that reference in Hofmanova as well.

    Interesting that they don't find any North African in these Neolithic groups. I wonder if they mean in terms of uniparental results, autosomal or both? So, perhaps the North African signature did all come in much later? Then I'll turn out to have been wrong about that.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    For the admixture in Paris:

    Even if these findings were consistent with different evolutionary scenarios, we propose that the scenario in which the Gurgy gene pool resulted from equivalent contributions of maternal lineages from farmer groups associated with the Danubian and Mediterranean expansion routes is the most parsimonious. These arguments notably corroborate archaeological evidence of cultural exchanges between farmers from the Paris Basin and those from southern France, indicating that the observed cultural exchanges reflect genetic admixture between groups.
    For the Sardinian higher relatedness to EEF I find logic the case if they were ancient EEF colonists that reached an unhabitated island; if actual Iberians seem less EEF is by the "phantom" WHG auDNA that "survived" to admix in the Calcholithic. And it's a proof that we aren't seeing all that was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    For the admixture in Paris:



    For the Sardinian higher relatedness to EEF I find logic the case if they were ancient EEF colonists that reached an unhabitated island; if actual Iberians seem less EEF is by the "phantom" WHG auDNA that "survived" to admix in the Calcholithic. And it's a proof that we aren't seeing all that was.
    Thanks for the link, Berun. I think the suggestion put forward by Hofmanova that perhaps the Sardinians are a remnant of Copper Age groups is supported by the fact that there isn't very much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island, nor of Paleolithic H-G settlement either (what evidence exists could just be occasional visits), and yet Sardinians have quite a bit of Loschbour like ancestry. This is a fact that Jean Manco highlights in her book. There is a great deal of evidence for migration from the Balkans in the Copper Age, so it would fit. That's not saying that's absolutely how it happened but it's a good possibility.

    There's also the fact that even in the Bronze Age we have evidence of people surviving in the Balkans who were "Tuscan" like, which was also the description given in a paper on the topic to some Spanish Iberian Neolithic people. So, there were indeed areas where this MN type group survived relatively unchanged until very late into European history. The fact that the Sardinians pull away even from them might very well be put down to all the drift they've experienced since then, especially in the mountainous interior of the island.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There were neolithics there

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Nuragic_Sardinia

    I remember even that there was neolithic trade of variscite between Sardinia and Provence.

    So if neolithics were the first permanent inhabitants it would fit well that Sardinians have keep a higher affinity to EEF or why they show such interesting Y-DNA composition.

    That is not to deny late migrations there otherwise (a lot like Megalith builders, BellBeakers, Sharden, Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, French, Aragonese, Genoese...). In fact such late migrations would be the responsible for the Loschbour ancestry.

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    nothing new about the newcomers, they were carded ware, whose DNA we allready have in Avellaner Cave

    for Megalith farmers there would be more admixture with HG, but I doubt whether these were local Iberian HG

    I suspect there was a lot of EEF-HG admixture in Starcevo, Köros, Cris and Dudesti cultures, i.e. in the Carpathian basin and in Wallachia (SW Roumenia).
    I suspect that is where the oxen originated by crossing local Wallachian aurochs (male) with Anatolian cows (female).
    I suspect this is the origin of Vinca, Gumelnita and Cucuteni-Tripolye with oxens and ards. I suspect we find the same people in Megalithic farmers, in Sopot, Rössen, Lengyel and TRB farmers. These farmers were the 'second wave' into Europe, after LBK and Cardial Ware. Their origins were the Balkans and the Carpathian Basin as early as ca 7.5 ka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link, Berun. I think the suggestion put forward by Hofmanova that perhaps the Sardinians are a remnant of Copper Age groups is supported by the fact that there isn't very much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island, nor of Paleolithic H-G settlement either (what evidence exists could just be occasional visits), and yet Sardinians have quite a bit of Loschbour like ancestry. This is a fact that Jean Manco highlights in her book. There is a great deal of evidence for migration from the Balkans in the Copper Age, so it would fit. That's not saying that's absolutely how it happened but it's a good possibility.

    There's also the fact that even in the Bronze Age we have evidence of people surviving in the Balkans who were "Tuscan" like, which was also the description given in a paper on the topic to some Spanish Iberian Neolithic people. So, there were indeed areas where this MN type group survived relatively unchanged until very late into European history. The fact that the Sardinians pull away even from them might very well be put down to all the drift they've experienced since then, especially in the mountainous interior of the island.
    there was the Obsidian trade ca 7 ka right after Carded Ware reached Pantellaria and the Tunisian coast.

    Obsidian_diffusion_Mediterranean_map.svg.jpg

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    there seem to be a lot of upcoming papers
    we should learn a few new things next summer

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Beware, Fire-Haired, it's about those pesky EEF type people again. :)

    See:
    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35599

    "The transition to a farming lifestyle was one of the major episodes of innovation in the history of our species and it has been the subject of intense archaeological research for decades1. In the past few years, archaeogenetic studies have been crucial in resolving some of the longstanding questions about the Neolithisation of Europe2-6. Here, we analyse new genome sequence data from 13 early farmers from Spain and compare them to previously published modern day and ancient genomes from Europe, North Africa and the Near East. We show that the first farmers to arrive to the Iberian Peninsula during the Neolithic, followed a coastal Mediterranean route bringing farming practices with them. These Neolithic individuals show a similar genetic structure across the North, North East and South of Iberia with no evidence of north African influence. Furthermore, we observe a certain degree of genetic differentiation between Early Neolithic Iberian and Central European farmers. An indication of at least two founding populations of early Neolithic Europeans (one that arrived via the Mediterranean coast and the other via the Danube basin into Central Europe). Among all early European farmers the Iberian Neolithic groups show the highest genetic affinities to present-day Sardinians suggesting that the modern population of the island are relatively direct descendants of these early Mediterranean farmers. Later, Iberian Chalcolithic populations derive from the interbreeding between incoming farmers and native hunter-gatherers3. In turn, these Chaloclithic groups are closely related to modern day Basques whom appeared to be isolated since the Late Neolithic3. Finally, genetic similarities between Middle to Late Neolithic farmers from Ireland and Iberia potentially suggest the latter to be the origin of the Megalithic culture which spread along the Atlantic coast and later reached the British Isles and Scandinavia7."
    Good confirmation of previous research and some new bits to chew on. Fascinating.

    Interesting that they don't find any North African in these Neolithic groups. I wonder if they mean in terms of uniparental results, autosomal or both? So, perhaps the North African signature did all come in much later? Then I'll turn out to have been wrong about that.
    There could be the case that at the same time, when EN farmers settled Europe, same EN farmers spreaded along the coast of North Africa, completely overwhelming all HGs there and virtually wiping out any African admixture. Or mixed with WHG like hunter gatherers who might have occupied coast of North Africa. In this case Iberian wave of farmers could have come actually from North Africa, but without any African admixture signal. It would explain neatly, why same but a bit different EN farmers were in Iberia, instead of exactly identical once like throughout all Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    [/FONT][/COLOR]There could be the case that at the same time, when EN farmers settled Europe, same EN farmers spreaded along the coast of North Africa, completely overwhelming all HGs there and virtually wiping out any African admixture. Or mixed with WHG like hunter gatherers who might have occupied coast of North Africa. In this case Iberian wave of farmers could have come actually from North Africa, but without any African admixture signal. It would explain neatly, why same but a bit different EN farmers were in Iberia, instead of exactly identical once like throughout all Europe.
    This could have happened. Interesting.

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    Neolithic and Chalcolithic DNA was tested from six funerary caves near Barcelona with a temporal transect.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iramunt/s...978304/photo/1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link, Berun. I think the suggestion put forward by Hofmanova that perhaps the Sardinians are a remnant of Copper Age groups is supported by the fact that there isn't very much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island, nor of Paleolithic H-G settlement either (what evidence exists could just be occasional visits), and yet Sardinians have quite a bit of Loschbour like ancestry. This is a fact that Jean Manco highlights in her book. There is a great deal of evidence for migration from the Balkans in the Copper Age, so it would fit. That's not saying that's absolutely how it happened but it's a good possibility.

    There's also the fact that even in the Bronze Age we have evidence of people surviving in the Balkans who were "Tuscan" like, which was also the description given in a paper on the topic to some Spanish Iberian Neolithic people. So, there were indeed areas where this MN type group survived relatively unchanged until very late into European history. The fact that the Sardinians pull away even from them might very well be put down to all the drift they've experienced since then, especially in the mountainous interior of the island.
    "There is no much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island" You mean of Paleolithic settlement? Because Sardinia was settled since at least 5000 bc by the Cardial pottery culture, and monuments such as Limuri date back to 4300 bc, while the step pyramid of Accoddi dates to 4000-3650 bc:
    It appears that Sardinia was densely populated in the Neolithic with about 2000 rock cut hypogeum tombs such as this one dating to the late fourth millenium bc: hundreds of menhirs, and villages of the Ozieri culture containing up to 370 huts, Sardinia was also one of the main sources of obsidian in the central Mediterranean along with Lipari during the Neolithic. Over 90% of the Obsidian from neolithic Southern France came from Sardinia, and it was found as far as Catalonia. By the way there is evidence of Mesolithic settlement in the South West coast too but of course it's not comparable to the intensity of Neolithic settlement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    "There is no much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island" You mean of Paleolithic settlement? Because Sardinia was settled since at least 5000 bc by the Cardial pottery culture, and monuments such as Limuri date back to 4300 bc. It appears that Sardinia was densely populated in the Neolithic with about 2000 rock cut hypogeum tombs such as this one dating to the late fourth millenium bc: hundreds of dolmen and menhirs, and villages of the Ozieri culture containing up to 370 huts, Sardinia was also one of the main sources of obsidian in the central Mediterranean along with Lipari during the Neolithic. Over 90% of the Obsidian from neolithic Southern France came from Sardinia. By the way there is evidence of Mesolithic settlement in the South West coast too but of course it's not comparable to the intensity of Neolithic settlement.
    I wasn't speaking of the Neolithic. I was speaking of the Mesolithic. There isn't much evidence of Mesolithic people, and what there is of it is held by some scholars to probably indicate temporary sites, not permanent settlement.

    Cardial had very little actual WHG. In fact, WHG wasn't picked up for quite some while in the Neolithic. The Barbagia Sardinians have quite a bit.

    Could some of it have come with settlers from the Balkans later on? I said it's a possibility, not something I'd bet the farm on.

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    Berun, cncerning the Central Europe farmers and Iberian farmers, here an abstract concerning Gurgy les Noisats in N-W Burgundy:
    When the waves of European Neolithization met: first paleogenetic evidence from early farmers in the southern Paris Basin.

    Rivollat M1, Mendisco F1, Pemonge MH1, Safi A1, Saint-Marc D1, Brmond A1, Couture-Veschambre C1, Rottier S1, Deguilloux MF1.
    Author information

    Abstract

    An intense debate concerning the nature and mode of Neolithic transition in Europe has long received much attention. Recent publications of paleogenetic analyses focusing on ancient European farmers from Central Europe or the Iberian Peninsula have greatly contributed to this debate, providing arguments in favor of major migrations accompanying European Neolithization and highlighting noticeable genetic differentiation between farmers associated with two archaeologically defined migration routes: the Danube valley and the Mediterranean Sea. The aim of the present study was to fill a gap with the first paleogenetic data of Neolithic settlers from a region (France) where the two great currents came into both direct and indirect contact with each other. To this end, we analyzed the Gurgy 'Les Noisats' group, an Early/Middle Neolithic necropolis in the southern part of the Paris Basin. Interestingly, the archaeological record from this region highlighted a clear cultural influence from the Danubian cultural sphere but also notes exchanges with the Mediterranean cultural area. To unravel the processes implied in these cultural exchanges, we analyzed 102 individuals and obtained the largest Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool so far (39 HVS-I mitochondrial sequences and haplogroups for 55 individuals) from a single archaeological site from the Early/Middle Neolithic period. Pairwise FST values, haplogroup frequencies and shared informative haplotypes were calculated and compared with ancient and modern European and Near Eastern populations. These descriptive analyses provided patterns resulting from different evolutionary scenarios; however, the archaeological data available for the region suggest that the Gurgy group was formed through equivalent genetic contributions of farmer descendants from the Danubian and Mediterranean Neolithization waves. However, these results, that would constitute the most ancient genetic evidence of admixture between farmers from both Central and Mediterranean migration routes in the European Neolithization debate, are subject to confirmation through appropriate model-based approaches.

    it's based only on mtDNA if I remember well, not sure. The conclusion is not too affrimative BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wasn't speaking of the Neolithic. I was speaking of the Mesolithic. There isn't much evidence of Mesolithic people, and what there is of it is held by some scholars to probably indicate temporary sites, not permanent settlement.

    Cardial had very little actual WHG. In fact, WHG wasn't picked up for quite some while in the Neolithic. The Barbagia Sardinians have quite a bit.

    Could some of it have come with settlers from the Balkans later on? I said it's a possibility, not something I'd bet the farm on.
    There might be some links with the Balkans concerning the Ozieri culture (3500-2800 bc). Not only do their idols resemble the cycladic ones, but their fine pottery has often been compared to that of the Cycladic culture but it is also comparable to that of the Balkan cultures such as the Vinca. Lilliu, the father of Sardinian archaeology was so convinced of these similarities that he held that the Ozieri culture was brought by migrants from the the Aegean. And it is also with the Ozieri culture that copper tools start to be seen in Sardinia
    Ozieri pottery:


    Early Cycladic:

    Cycladic idols:


    Ozieri idols:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    There might be some link with the Balkans concerning the Ozieri culture (3500-2800 bc). Not only do their idols resemble the cycladic ones, but their fine pottery has often been compared to that of the Cycladean culture but it is also comparable to that of the Balkan cultures such as the Vinca. Lilliu, the father of Sardinian archaeology was so convinced of these similarities that he held that it was brought forth by migrants from the the Aegean. And it is also with the Ozieri culture that copper tools start to be seen in Sardinia
    Ozieri pottery:


    Early Cycladic:

    Cycladic idols:


    Ozieri idols:

    That's exactly right. Copper moved from east to west too, along the coastline, and even into Spain, imo.

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    A possible later spread of Middle Neolithic Iberians (EEF+WHG) from West to East

    20180603_102541.jpg
    https://api.viaggiart.com/resources/...1502336391.jpg

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    The pottery from the Calcolithic culture of Monte Claro in Sardinia (2700-2200 bc) resembles that of the Fontbouisse culture in Southern France. Stone Fortifications are present in both cultures. Copper blades were largely used by the people of the Monte Claro culture and their stelae statues depicted male figures with daggers. Crucibles, hammers, grinders and metal slags belonging to this phase were also found. While the earliest real swords to show up in the Western Mediterranean area (1700-1600 bc) appear in Sardinia with the Bonnannaro (Early Nuragic) culture and in South Eastern Iberia with the Late Argaric culture, the swords are similar and this has led archaeologists to think that there were contacts between the Sardinian and Iberian elites: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_S...ANIFORME._2012

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    i think that megalithic circular graves are older, c. 3500 BC. There are many in Corsica, North East Sardinian and one example near Civitavecchia. These monuments are of Iberian-Occitan origin.

    Btw weren't Monte Claro "eastern" immigrants (oven tombs, oriental metallurgy) ? My guess was that they brought CHG related ancestry.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's exactly right. Copper moved from east to west too, along the coastline, and even into Spain, imo.
    Yup, everything fits with Tomenable’s Chalcolithic R1b theory. Just a recap again (I’ve modified it somewhat). Note that (C) means Copper Age and (B) means Bronze Age:

    M269 in (C) Balkans (perhaps also to the (C) Steppe before Yamnaya)
    then L23 in (C) West Asia (perhaps also to the (C) Steppe before Yamnaya)
    then L51 in (C) Iberia, and Z2103 in (C) West Asia
    then Z2103 from (B) West Asia to (B) Steppe, then later to (B) Balkans, and L51 from (C) Iberia to (B) Central Europe, then later to (B) Western Europe

    The transition from (C) to (B) for Z2103 was developed in the Maykop culture; the transition from (C) to (B) for L51 was learned from the Vucedol culture.

    In both the migration from West Asia to the Steppe, and Iberia to Central Europe, it was the ruling elite of R1b Z2103/L51 metallurgists that made the jump. The base farmer population from whence they came, with higher population densities, would have been majority non-R1b. The ruling class of R1b metallurgists would, by and large, be similar genetically to the class they ruled over (in this case of Z2103 in West Asia and L51 in Iberia). However, they would have inherited their class from paternal lineages, often taking “peasant” wives, resulting in the mixing up of autosomal DNA as time progresses - I wouldn’t scoff at this, considering it is the current hypothesis to how R1b spread to Western Europe (though most see it as stemming from Yamnaya, which isn’t likely at all, given the Z2103:L51 ratio in both ancient Yamnaya samples, but also in the Balkans (where Yamnaya definitely did migrate)). As an example, this idea explains the recent discovery of similar West Asian mtDNA in the West Asia-Steppe transition zone during the Maykop period (which is a much more plausible explanation than women from the Caucasus mating with R1b Steppe males through a female-mediated migration to the Steppe, which some have seriously proposed), as well as the similar Mediterranean mtDNA in the Iberia-Central Europe transition during the Eastern Beaker period (see mtDNA H1 and H3). The ruling class of R1b travelled from a majority non-R1b population of high population density, to one also of a different haplogroup (perhaps R1b of a different subclade, but more likely R1a) but of a small enough population that they could be sexually dominated in terms of replacement of paternal lineages. Both the Z2103 Steppe and L51 Central European populations gained their Steppe DNA from the local R1a populations they become chieftains of (so for example, Beaker males (who wouldn’t have travelled only as ruling males, but as ruling males and their wives, which as mentioned explains mtDNA similarities between the populations R1b moved between at the early stages, rather than a naïve women only migration), blended with Corded Ware females over time and replaced the R1a, explaining the increase in Steppe mtDNA in Unetice). It also explains why Unetice is Indo-European - the ruling Beakers were a minority despite the Corded population not being huge itself, and simply adopted or adapted the language of the more numerous locals, which was the CWC - so Western IE languages come from the CWC. As an example of similar migration without language change, when DF27 descendents of the Unetice/Tumulus culture migrated to Iberia, they didn’t actually replace the language of the very numerous base population they subjugated, as we know to have been the case for the Iberian languages, which existed well into the Roman period, with Basque still surviving today. Note that while L51 isn’t associated with IE languages, late Z2103 is, which explains the similarity between Anatolian and the LPIE languages that all stem from the Steppe.

    It sounds a bit surreal (peasant farmers and ruling metallurgists), but this happened in ancient Middle Eastern cultures (before Sumer even), and also those of the Mediterranean too. One of the clearest signs of this is (though far later than the early Chalcolithic) with the Spartans. The Spartans were described as red-haired by the Athenians, and we know that they literally spoke of their situation as foreigners imposing their rule on more numerous local helot peasants. Well, there’s almost no red hair to speak of in Southern Greece now - and this example isn’t in isolation, as the Thracians were also described and depicted as red-haired just like the Spartans, yet there’s barely a trace of rufosity in Bulgaria. If you go back to the early Copper Age too, there were clear social divisions, crucially, based on occupation - and now consider that metallurgy would have been too technical for the average farmer, and known only to a select few, and we now have a minority ruling class. As another example of R1b amongst farmers, some of the most basal L51 clades are found in Sardinia, with all that I2a1. Tangentially to this, consider that the Beaker folk were always in small number wherever they went - be it their homeland in Iberia (where they would have been heavily outnumbered by a bunch of I2a farmer folk) or when they decided to move out as metal traders and metallurgists to Central Europe to socially dominate still larger, but still not huge populations, such as the CWC. It should be no surprise that most of the supposed Beaker folk in Iberia turned out to be I2a then, given the disparity in population size between the classes (and there’s always the possibility that the higher up practised cremation). Also consider the I2a-Din in West Asia, that supports a migration out of the Balkans. There are clear links between the Chalcolithic Balkans and Chalcolithic West Asia, with the Balkans receiving Copper at the earliest date, and in fact clear links between all places receiving Copper metallurgy at a relatively early date. The common link seems to be in the spread of I2a (from the Balkans to the Middle East, and also West across the Mediterranean to Iberia (stopping off in Sardinia and other Med. islands along the way)), but it is curious given that I2a(1) is first and foremost a farmer lineage. Not only this, but R1b’s phylogeny suggests an origin of M269 and L23 geographically in I2a1 territory, and we know that in the jumps from areas of high population density to lower population density (West Asia to Steppe; Iberia to Central Europe), it is then most clearly R1b that is associated with the spread of metallurgy. So, were these bringers of metal mostly R1b based on sheer luck of being randomly selected out of the population that would be the providers of metal technology? I think not. They spread and practised metallurgy, not I2a.

    Altogether, there is enough evidence to have a strong hunch that R1b tribes spread metallurgy, supported by a backbone of I2a farmers along the way at the earliest stages. The farmers would have tended to produce most of the pottery, which can explain other things too, like the Halaf-Ubaid transition - if the R1b metallurgists simply somehow switched from the I2a farmer base population that accompanied them from the Balkans to West Asia to another farmer base population of a different haplogroup with different pottery traditions, it can explain both the continuity in metallurgy between Halaf and Ubaid but also the differences in basic culture, such as pottery. It also is consistent with I2a-Din only being truly present in the Northern Fertile Crescent, the rough area of the Halaf culture, whereas the area from whence the Ubaid culture sprang (the Southern Fertile Crescent) accordingly does not have much I2a1, as it was host to a different farmer base population (perhaps J1, maybe J2). I am dead set on this farmer transition of I2a1 in Halaf to something else in Ubaid, but I am not necessary set on R1b remaining as the ruling class of metallurgists during the transition - they weren’t magical or clearly supreme, and could easily have been displaced, perhaps by J2. Regardless, R1b would continue to be the principle spreader of metallurgy in Europe for some time. Yet another thing that fits this theory is the spread of the Swastika in all these early Chalcolithic cultures. The oldest Swastika has been found in the Ukraine, about 10,000 years ago. If we associate the spread of the swastika with the spread of metallurgy, at least at its earliest stages, despite it stemming from SE Europe, are we really to associate it with I2a? R1b-V88 brought the Swastika to parts of Africa, and R1b-V88 (not phylogenetically close to M269) was also found in the Mesolithic Balkans. So R1b, ultimately from roughly the Balkans area, carrying the Swastika which has been found first in neighbouring Ukraine - seems to fit the idea of R1b M269 spreading metallurgy ultimately from the Balkans well to me.

    In short, R1b M269 onwards spread metallurgy wherever it went, becoming the ruling class. Not all metallurgy was spread by R1b, but at the earliest stages it definitely was. If they spread into a population without high population density, there would be large Y DNA replacement over time. The lack of R1b samples in these areas of higher population densities, such as West Asia and Iberia during the Copper Age, can easily be explained by R1b simply being massively outnumbered by a larger farmer population. The origin of R1b in Western Europeans, and the origin of Western Europeans altogether, stems from a Beaker and Corded blend - with Beakers coming from Iberia and the CWC from the Steppe. The origin of Yamnaya is separate (Maykop-Steppe blend), with the links of Western European R1b to the Steppe being, as mentioned, through the Corded Ware culture.

    What I just wrote is very long, and a bit unorganised, but I hope you decide to take the time to read it, as it seems very conclusive to me. And if you don’t agree with that - try and argue against it!
    Last edited by ToBeOrNotToBe; 03-06-18 at 16:24.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    The pottery from the Calcolithic culture of Monte Claro in Sardinia (2700-2200 bc) resembles that of the Fontbouisse culture in Southern France. Stone Fortifications are present in both cultures. Copper blades were largely used by the people of the Monte Claro culture and their stelae statues depicted male figures with daggers. Crucibles, hammers, grinders and metal slags belonging to this phase were also found. While the earliest real swords to show up in the Western Mediterranean area (1700-1600 bc) appear in Sardinia with the Bonnannaro (Early Nuragic) culture and in South Eastern Iberia with the Late Argaric culture, the swords are similar and this has led archaeologists to think that there were contacts between the Sardinian and Iberian elites: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_S...ANIFORME._2012
    Yes, all very suggestive of these interconnections.

    My point, however, was solely about the fact that copper-working, metallurgy, spread from the east. In terms of Europe, we know that it was centered in the Balkans. Then we see a spread of copper working along the Mediterranean, including a very early copper mine in Liguria. All of that is suggestive to me of exploration and exploitation along the northern Mediterranean littoral. Copper working did not arise in Iberia. It arrived from elsewhere. If large groups of people came with it is speculative until we get ancient dna.

    We discussed some of this in this thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...r+mine+Liguria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, all very suggestive of these interconnections.

    My point, however, was solely about the fact that copper-working, metallurgy, spread from the east. In terms of Europe, we know that it was centered in the Balkans. Then we see a spread of copper working along the Mediterranean, including a very early copper mine in Liguria. All of that is suggestive to me of exploration and exploitation along the northern Mediterranean littoral. Copper working did not arise in Iberia. It arrived from elsewhere. If large groups of people came with it is speculative until we get ancient dna.

    We discussed some of this in this thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...r+mine+Liguria
    I know it’s long but do you mind critiquing my post above? It makes sense to me.

    And just to mention, as you may have a knee-jerk reaction against it, these R1b people aren’t some kind of master race - besides I clearly outline the fact that wherever the went, by and large, they mixed with the population they dominated, sharing their genomes with these populations. They also in my opinion didn’t invent civilisation (Sumer being the first) - I put that down to J2 tribes, albeit with a significant minority of R1b.

    So yeah, let me know :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    i think that megalithic circular graves are older, c. 3500 BC. There are many in Corsica, North East Sardinian and one example near Civitavecchia. These monuments are of Iberian-Occitan origin.

    Btw weren't Monte Claro "eastern" immigrants (oven tombs, oriental metallurgy) ? My guess was that they brought CHG related ancestry.

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    I've never read about the Monte Claro culture being from the East and their pottery looks very different from that of the Aegean, although the Monte Claro pottery is really close to that of the contemporary Pianoconte culture in Lipari so some connections with the East shouldn't be discarded. Some archaeologists have proposed that later on the Bell beaker pottery reached Sicily from Sardinia which in turn got it from Iberia and/or Southern France.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I know it’s long but do you mind critiquing my post above? It makes sense to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post

    And just to mention, as you may have a knee-jerk reaction against it, these R1b people aren’t some kind of master race - besides I clearly outline the fact that wherever the went, by and large, they mixed with the population they dominated, sharing their genomes with these populations. They also in my opinion didn’t invent civilisation (Sumer being the first) - I put that down to J2 tribes, albeit with a significant minority of R1b.

    So yeah, let me know :)
    I doubt you can attribute things like civilization to the people carrying a haplogroup. Civilization arose where the right conditions were present and sometimes the arrival of new cultured groups sped up the process but nevertheless saying that the Sumerians or even worse the "J2 people" were responsible for every civilization in the old world it's a gross simplification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    I've never read about the Monte Claro culture being from the East and their pottery looks very different from that of the Aegean, although the Monte Claro pottery is really close to that of the contemporary Pianoconte culture in Lipari so some connections with the East shouldn't be discarded.
    Lilliu wrote that they were "permeated by oriental traditional elements" and highlighted that they were immigrants. If they came from (Copper Age) Sicily is not unlikely that they already had CHG and J2 Y-DNA (?).

    Their metallurgy look eastern to me, leaf shaped dagger
    https://img.ibs.it/images/9788887758351_0_0_300_75.jpg



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    It could be though Lilliu is a little outdated on some topics. But yes there were surely some links with Sicily and especially Lipari, which we see again in the late bronze age. What I find striking is that since the calcolithic there seems to have been a direct route from Southern Sardinia to Sicily looking at the cultural links between Sardinia and Sicily both in the Monte Claro period and with Bell beaker, the Monte Claro culture is in fact named after a site in Cagliari, and this is especially clear later on during the bronze age where Sardinian pottery first appears in Sicily rather than in mainland Italy and when Mycenaean pottery finds in Sardinia are mostly focused on the gulf of Cagliari rather than in the North. There's also a relatively recent study on pigs' DNA that suggests the existence of a pig trade between Sicily/South Italy and Sardinia during the middle bronze age which against suggests a direct route.

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