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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Upcoming paper on the Iberian Neolithic

    Beware, Fire-Haired, it's about those pesky EEF type people again. :)

    See:
    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35599

    "The transition to a farming lifestyle was one of the major episodes of innovation in the history of our species and it has been the subject of intense archaeological research for decades1. In the past few years, archaeogenetic studies have been crucial in resolving some of the longstanding questions about the Neolithisation of Europe2-6. Here, we analyse new genome sequence data from 13 early farmers from Spain and compare them to previously published modern day and ancient genomes from Europe, North Africa and the Near East. We show that the first farmers to arrive to the Iberian Peninsula during the Neolithic, followed a coastal Mediterranean route bringing farming practices with them. These Neolithic individuals show a similar genetic structure across the North, North East and South of Iberia with no evidence of north African influence. Furthermore, we observe a certain degree of genetic differentiation between Early Neolithic Iberian and Central European farmers. An indication of at least two founding populations of early Neolithic Europeans (one that arrived via the Mediterranean coast and the other via the Danube basin into Central Europe). Among all early European farmers the Iberian Neolithic groups show the highest genetic affinities to present-day Sardinians suggesting that the modern population of the island are relatively direct descendants of these early Mediterranean farmers. Later, Iberian Chalcolithic populations derive from the interbreeding between incoming farmers and native hunter-gatherers3. In turn, these Chaloclithic groups are closely related to modern day Basques whom appeared to be isolated since the Late Neolithic3. Finally, genetic similarities between Middle to Late Neolithic farmers from Ireland and Iberia potentially suggest the latter to be the origin of the Megalithic culture which spread along the Atlantic coast and later reached the British Isles and Scandinavia7."

    I have to go back and check the Hofmanova paper, but I think this is their basic conclusion as well, i.e. that there were two initial streams of the EEF into Europe. Given the population crashes in central Europe, perhaps more than half of the EEF ancestry in modern Europeans stems from the coastal Cardial route and the succeeding Megalithic one? It would vary by area in Europe, of course.

    I'll try to find the citation for that paper that claimed that the Neolithic in the Paris basin was a mix of the coastal and Danubian Neolithic groups. If someone has it to hand, could you provide it?

    As to the comment about Sardinians, they do indeed seem to be the most similar to the original EEF people, but I don't think it's because there's been continuity on the island since the Early Neolithic. As Hofmanova et al pointed out, I think, it may well be that they are actually descended from the Copper Age people of the Balkans, "Old Europe" if you weill. After the Sardinians, almost everything I've seen shows that the succeeding populations in order of similarity are the Tuscans, then the Northern Italians, then the mainland Greeks and the Iberians in various orders. I'll try to find the time to find that reference in Hofmanova as well.

    Interesting that they don't find any North African in these Neolithic groups. I wonder if they mean in terms of uniparental results, autosomal or both? So, perhaps the North African signature did all come in much later? Then I'll turn out to have been wrong about that.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    For the admixture in Paris:

    Even if these findings were consistent with different evolutionary scenarios, we propose that the scenario in which the Gurgy gene pool resulted from equivalent contributions of maternal lineages from farmer groups associated with the Danubian and Mediterranean expansion routes is the most parsimonious. These arguments notably corroborate archaeological evidence of cultural exchanges between farmers from the Paris Basin and those from southern France, indicating that the observed cultural exchanges reflect genetic admixture between groups.
    For the Sardinian higher relatedness to EEF I find logic the case if they were ancient EEF colonists that reached an unhabitated island; if actual Iberians seem less EEF is by the "phantom" WHG auDNA that "survived" to admix in the Calcholithic. And it's a proof that we aren't seeing all that was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    For the admixture in Paris:



    For the Sardinian higher relatedness to EEF I find logic the case if they were ancient EEF colonists that reached an unhabitated island; if actual Iberians seem less EEF is by the "phantom" WHG auDNA that "survived" to admix in the Calcholithic. And it's a proof that we aren't seeing all that was.
    Thanks for the link, Berun. I think the suggestion put forward by Hofmanova that perhaps the Sardinians are a remnant of Copper Age groups is supported by the fact that there isn't very much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island, nor of Paleolithic H-G settlement either (what evidence exists could just be occasional visits), and yet Sardinians have quite a bit of Loschbour like ancestry. This is a fact that Jean Manco highlights in her book. There is a great deal of evidence for migration from the Balkans in the Copper Age, so it would fit. That's not saying that's absolutely how it happened but it's a good possibility.

    There's also the fact that even in the Bronze Age we have evidence of people surviving in the Balkans who were "Tuscan" like, which was also the description given in a paper on the topic to some Spanish Iberian Neolithic people. So, there were indeed areas where this MN type group survived relatively unchanged until very late into European history. The fact that the Sardinians pull away even from them might very well be put down to all the drift they've experienced since then, especially in the mountainous interior of the island.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link, Berun. I think the suggestion put forward by Hofmanova that perhaps the Sardinians are a remnant of Copper Age groups is supported by the fact that there isn't very much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island, nor of Paleolithic H-G settlement either (what evidence exists could just be occasional visits), and yet Sardinians have quite a bit of Loschbour like ancestry. This is a fact that Jean Manco highlights in her book. There is a great deal of evidence for migration from the Balkans in the Copper Age, so it would fit. That's not saying that's absolutely how it happened but it's a good possibility.

    There's also the fact that even in the Bronze Age we have evidence of people surviving in the Balkans who were "Tuscan" like, which was also the description given in a paper on the topic to some Spanish Iberian Neolithic people. So, there were indeed areas where this MN type group survived relatively unchanged until very late into European history. The fact that the Sardinians pull away even from them might very well be put down to all the drift they've experienced since then, especially in the mountainous interior of the island.
    there was the Obsidian trade ca 7 ka right after Carded Ware reached Pantellaria and the Tunisian coast.

    Obsidian_diffusion_Mediterranean_map.svg.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link, Berun. I think the suggestion put forward by Hofmanova that perhaps the Sardinians are a remnant of Copper Age groups is supported by the fact that there isn't very much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island, nor of Paleolithic H-G settlement either (what evidence exists could just be occasional visits), and yet Sardinians have quite a bit of Loschbour like ancestry. This is a fact that Jean Manco highlights in her book. There is a great deal of evidence for migration from the Balkans in the Copper Age, so it would fit. That's not saying that's absolutely how it happened but it's a good possibility.

    There's also the fact that even in the Bronze Age we have evidence of people surviving in the Balkans who were "Tuscan" like, which was also the description given in a paper on the topic to some Spanish Iberian Neolithic people. So, there were indeed areas where this MN type group survived relatively unchanged until very late into European history. The fact that the Sardinians pull away even from them might very well be put down to all the drift they've experienced since then, especially in the mountainous interior of the island.
    "There is no much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island" You mean of Paleolithic settlement? Because Sardinia was settled since at least 5000 bc by the Cardial pottery culture, and monuments such as Limuri date back to 4300 bc, while the step pyramid of Accoddi dates to 4000-3650 bc:
    It appears that Sardinia was densely populated in the Neolithic with about 2000 rock cut hypogeum tombs such as this one dating to the late fourth millenium bc: hundreds of menhirs, and villages of the Ozieri culture containing up to 370 huts, Sardinia was also one of the main sources of obsidian in the central Mediterranean along with Lipari during the Neolithic. Over 90% of the Obsidian from neolithic Southern France came from Sardinia, and it was found as far as Catalonia. By the way there is evidence of Mesolithic settlement in the South West coast too but of course it's not comparable to the intensity of Neolithic settlement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    "There is no much evidence of Neolithic settlement on the island" You mean of Paleolithic settlement? Because Sardinia was settled since at least 5000 bc by the Cardial pottery culture, and monuments such as Limuri date back to 4300 bc. It appears that Sardinia was densely populated in the Neolithic with about 2000 rock cut hypogeum tombs such as this one dating to the late fourth millenium bc: hundreds of dolmen and menhirs, and villages of the Ozieri culture containing up to 370 huts, Sardinia was also one of the main sources of obsidian in the central Mediterranean along with Lipari during the Neolithic. Over 90% of the Obsidian from neolithic Southern France came from Sardinia. By the way there is evidence of Mesolithic settlement in the South West coast too but of course it's not comparable to the intensity of Neolithic settlement.
    I wasn't speaking of the Neolithic. I was speaking of the Mesolithic. There isn't much evidence of Mesolithic people, and what there is of it is held by some scholars to probably indicate temporary sites, not permanent settlement.

    Cardial had very little actual WHG. In fact, WHG wasn't picked up for quite some while in the Neolithic. The Barbagia Sardinians have quite a bit.

    Could some of it have come with settlers from the Balkans later on? I said it's a possibility, not something I'd bet the farm on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wasn't speaking of the Neolithic. I was speaking of the Mesolithic. There isn't much evidence of Mesolithic people, and what there is of it is held by some scholars to probably indicate temporary sites, not permanent settlement.

    Cardial had very little actual WHG. In fact, WHG wasn't picked up for quite some while in the Neolithic. The Barbagia Sardinians have quite a bit.

    Could some of it have come with settlers from the Balkans later on? I said it's a possibility, not something I'd bet the farm on.
    There might be some links with the Balkans concerning the Ozieri culture (3500-2800 bc). Not only do their idols resemble the cycladic ones, but their fine pottery has often been compared to that of the Cycladic culture but it is also comparable to that of the Balkan cultures such as the Vinca. Lilliu, the father of Sardinian archaeology was so convinced of these similarities that he held that the Ozieri culture was brought by migrants from the the Aegean. And it is also with the Ozieri culture that copper tools start to be seen in Sardinia
    Ozieri pottery:


    Early Cycladic:

    Cycladic idols:


    Ozieri idols:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There were neolithics there

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Nuragic_Sardinia

    I remember even that there was neolithic trade of variscite between Sardinia and Provence.

    So if neolithics were the first permanent inhabitants it would fit well that Sardinians have keep a higher affinity to EEF or why they show such interesting Y-DNA composition.

    That is not to deny late migrations there otherwise (a lot like Megalith builders, BellBeakers, Sharden, Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, French, Aragonese, Genoese...). In fact such late migrations would be the responsible for the Loschbour ancestry.

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    there seem to be a lot of upcoming papers
    we should learn a few new things next summer

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    nothing new about the newcomers, they were carded ware, whose DNA we allready have in Avellaner Cave

    for Megalith farmers there would be more admixture with HG, but I doubt whether these were local Iberian HG

    I suspect there was a lot of EEF-HG admixture in Starcevo, Köros, Cris and Dudesti cultures, i.e. in the Carpathian basin and in Wallachia (SW Roumenia).
    I suspect that is where the oxen originated by crossing local Wallachian aurochs (male) with Anatolian cows (female).
    I suspect this is the origin of Vinca, Gumelnita and Cucuteni-Tripolye with oxens and ards. I suspect we find the same people in Megalithic farmers, in Sopot, Rössen, Lengyel and TRB farmers. These farmers were the 'second wave' into Europe, after LBK and Cardial Ware. Their origins were the Balkans and the Carpathian Basin as early as ca 7.5 ka.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Beware, Fire-Haired, it's about those pesky EEF type people again. :)

    See:
    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35599

    "The transition to a farming lifestyle was one of the major episodes of innovation in the history of our species and it has been the subject of intense archaeological research for decades1. In the past few years, archaeogenetic studies have been crucial in resolving some of the longstanding questions about the Neolithisation of Europe2-6. Here, we analyse new genome sequence data from 13 early farmers from Spain and compare them to previously published modern day and ancient genomes from Europe, North Africa and the Near East. We show that the first farmers to arrive to the Iberian Peninsula during the Neolithic, followed a coastal Mediterranean route bringing farming practices with them. These Neolithic individuals show a similar genetic structure across the North, North East and South of Iberia with no evidence of north African influence. Furthermore, we observe a certain degree of genetic differentiation between Early Neolithic Iberian and Central European farmers. An indication of at least two founding populations of early Neolithic Europeans (one that arrived via the Mediterranean coast and the other via the Danube basin into Central Europe). Among all early European farmers the Iberian Neolithic groups show the highest genetic affinities to present-day Sardinians suggesting that the modern population of the island are relatively direct descendants of these early Mediterranean farmers. Later, Iberian Chalcolithic populations derive from the interbreeding between incoming farmers and native hunter-gatherers3. In turn, these Chaloclithic groups are closely related to modern day Basques whom appeared to be isolated since the Late Neolithic3. Finally, genetic similarities between Middle to Late Neolithic farmers from Ireland and Iberia potentially suggest the latter to be the origin of the Megalithic culture which spread along the Atlantic coast and later reached the British Isles and Scandinavia7."
    Good confirmation of previous research and some new bits to chew on. Fascinating.

    Interesting that they don't find any North African in these Neolithic groups. I wonder if they mean in terms of uniparental results, autosomal or both? So, perhaps the North African signature did all come in much later? Then I'll turn out to have been wrong about that.
    There could be the case that at the same time, when EN farmers settled Europe, same EN farmers spreaded along the coast of North Africa, completely overwhelming all HGs there and virtually wiping out any African admixture. Or mixed with WHG like hunter gatherers who might have occupied coast of North Africa. In this case Iberian wave of farmers could have come actually from North Africa, but without any African admixture signal. It would explain neatly, why same but a bit different EN farmers were in Iberia, instead of exactly identical once like throughout all Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    [/FONT][/COLOR]There could be the case that at the same time, when EN farmers settled Europe, same EN farmers spreaded along the coast of North Africa, completely overwhelming all HGs there and virtually wiping out any African admixture. Or mixed with WHG like hunter gatherers who might have occupied coast of North Africa. In this case Iberian wave of farmers could have come actually from North Africa, but without any African admixture signal. It would explain neatly, why same but a bit different EN farmers were in Iberia, instead of exactly identical once like throughout all Europe.
    This could have happened. Interesting.

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    Neolithic and Chalcolithic DNA was tested from six funerary caves near Barcelona with a temporal transect.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iramunt/s...978304/photo/1

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    Berun, cncerning the Central Europe farmers and Iberian farmers, here an abstract concerning Gurgy les Noisats in N-W Burgundy:
    When the waves of European Neolithization met: first paleogenetic evidence from early farmers in the southern Paris Basin.

    Rivollat M1, Mendisco F1, Pemonge MH1, Safi A1, Saint-Marc D1, Brmond A1, Couture-Veschambre C1, Rottier S1, Deguilloux MF1.
    Author information

    Abstract

    An intense debate concerning the nature and mode of Neolithic transition in Europe has long received much attention. Recent publications of paleogenetic analyses focusing on ancient European farmers from Central Europe or the Iberian Peninsula have greatly contributed to this debate, providing arguments in favor of major migrations accompanying European Neolithization and highlighting noticeable genetic differentiation between farmers associated with two archaeologically defined migration routes: the Danube valley and the Mediterranean Sea. The aim of the present study was to fill a gap with the first paleogenetic data of Neolithic settlers from a region (France) where the two great currents came into both direct and indirect contact with each other. To this end, we analyzed the Gurgy 'Les Noisats' group, an Early/Middle Neolithic necropolis in the southern part of the Paris Basin. Interestingly, the archaeological record from this region highlighted a clear cultural influence from the Danubian cultural sphere but also notes exchanges with the Mediterranean cultural area. To unravel the processes implied in these cultural exchanges, we analyzed 102 individuals and obtained the largest Neolithic mitochondrial gene pool so far (39 HVS-I mitochondrial sequences and haplogroups for 55 individuals) from a single archaeological site from the Early/Middle Neolithic period. Pairwise FST values, haplogroup frequencies and shared informative haplotypes were calculated and compared with ancient and modern European and Near Eastern populations. These descriptive analyses provided patterns resulting from different evolutionary scenarios; however, the archaeological data available for the region suggest that the Gurgy group was formed through equivalent genetic contributions of farmer descendants from the Danubian and Mediterranean Neolithization waves. However, these results, that would constitute the most ancient genetic evidence of admixture between farmers from both Central and Mediterranean migration routes in the European Neolithization debate, are subject to confirmation through appropriate model-based approaches.

    it's based only on mtDNA if I remember well, not sure. The conclusion is not too affrimative BTW.

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    A possible later spread of Middle Neolithic Iberians (EEF+WHG) from West to East

    20180603_102541.jpg
    https://api.viaggiart.com/resources/...1502336391.jpg

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    The pottery from the Calcolithic culture of Monte Claro in Sardinia (2700-2200 bc) resembles that of the Fontbouisse culture in Southern France. Stone Fortifications are present in both cultures. Copper blades were largely used by the people of the Monte Claro culture and their stelae statues depicted male figures with daggers. Crucibles, hammers, grinders and metal slags belonging to this phase were also found. While the earliest real swords to show up in the Western Mediterranean area (1700-1600 bc) appear in Sardinia with the Bonnannaro (Early Nuragic) culture and in South Eastern Iberia with the Late Argaric culture, the swords are similar and this has led archaeologists to think that there were contacts between the Sardinian and Iberian elites: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_S...ANIFORME._2012

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    The pottery from the Calcolithic culture of Monte Claro in Sardinia (2700-2200 bc) resembles that of the Fontbouisse culture in Southern France. Stone Fortifications are present in both cultures. Copper blades were largely used by the people of the Monte Claro culture and their stelae statues depicted male figures with daggers. Crucibles, hammers, grinders and metal slags belonging to this phase were also found. While the earliest real swords to show up in the Western Mediterranean area (1700-1600 bc) appear in Sardinia with the Bonnannaro (Early Nuragic) culture and in South Eastern Iberia with the Late Argaric culture, the swords are similar and this has led archaeologists to think that there were contacts between the Sardinian and Iberian elites: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_S...ANIFORME._2012
    Yes, all very suggestive of these interconnections.

    My point, however, was solely about the fact that copper-working, metallurgy, spread from the east. In terms of Europe, we know that it was centered in the Balkans. Then we see a spread of copper working along the Mediterranean, including a very early copper mine in Liguria. All of that is suggestive to me of exploration and exploitation along the northern Mediterranean littoral. Copper working did not arise in Iberia. It arrived from elsewhere. If large groups of people came with it is speculative until we get ancient dna.

    We discussed some of this in this thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...r+mine+Liguria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, all very suggestive of these interconnections.

    My point, however, was solely about the fact that copper-working, metallurgy, spread from the east. In terms of Europe, we know that it was centered in the Balkans. Then we see a spread of copper working along the Mediterranean, including a very early copper mine in Liguria. All of that is suggestive to me of exploration and exploitation along the northern Mediterranean littoral. Copper working did not arise in Iberia. It arrived from elsewhere. If large groups of people came with it is speculative until we get ancient dna.

    We discussed some of this in this thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...r+mine+Liguria
    I know it’s long but do you mind critiquing my post above? It makes sense to me.

    And just to mention, as you may have a knee-jerk reaction against it, these R1b people aren’t some kind of master race - besides I clearly outline the fact that wherever the went, by and large, they mixed with the population they dominated, sharing their genomes with these populations. They also in my opinion didn’t invent civilisation (Sumer being the first) - I put that down to J2 tribes, albeit with a significant minority of R1b.

    So yeah, let me know :)

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    i think that megalithic circular graves are older, c. 3500 BC. There are many in Corsica, North East Sardinian and one example near Civitavecchia. These monuments are of Iberian-Occitan origin.

    Btw weren't Monte Claro "eastern" immigrants (oven tombs, oriental metallurgy) ? My guess was that they brought CHG related ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    i think that megalithic circular graves are older, c. 3500 BC. There are many in Corsica, North East Sardinian and one example near Civitavecchia. These monuments are of Iberian-Occitan origin.

    Btw weren't Monte Claro "eastern" immigrants (oven tombs, oriental metallurgy) ? My guess was that they brought CHG related ancestry.

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    I've never read about the Monte Claro culture being from the East and their pottery looks very different from that of the Aegean, although the Monte Claro pottery is really close to that of the contemporary Pianoconte culture in Lipari so some connections with the East shouldn't be discarded. Some archaeologists have proposed that later on the Bell beaker pottery reached Sicily from Sardinia which in turn got it from Iberia and/or Southern France.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I know it’s long but do you mind critiquing my post above? It makes sense to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post

    And just to mention, as you may have a knee-jerk reaction against it, these R1b people aren’t some kind of master race - besides I clearly outline the fact that wherever the went, by and large, they mixed with the population they dominated, sharing their genomes with these populations. They also in my opinion didn’t invent civilisation (Sumer being the first) - I put that down to J2 tribes, albeit with a significant minority of R1b.

    So yeah, let me know :)
    I doubt you can attribute things like civilization to the people carrying a haplogroup. Civilization arose where the right conditions were present and sometimes the arrival of new cultured groups sped up the process but nevertheless saying that the Sumerians or even worse the "J2 people" were responsible for every civilization in the old world it's a gross simplification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    I've never read about the Monte Claro culture being from the East and their pottery looks very different from that of the Aegean, although the Monte Claro pottery is really close to that of the contemporary Pianoconte culture in Lipari so some connections with the East shouldn't be discarded.
    Lilliu wrote that they were "permeated by oriental traditional elements" and highlighted that they were immigrants. If they came from (Copper Age) Sicily is not unlikely that they already had CHG and J2 Y-DNA (?).

    Their metallurgy look eastern to me, leaf shaped dagger
    https://img.ibs.it/images/9788887758351_0_0_300_75.jpg



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    It could be though Lilliu is a little outdated on some topics. But yes there were surely some links with Sicily and especially Lipari, which we see again in the late bronze age. What I find striking is that since the calcolithic there seems to have been a direct route from Southern Sardinia to Sicily looking at the cultural links between Sardinia and Sicily both in the Monte Claro period and with Bell beaker, the Monte Claro culture is in fact named after a site in Cagliari, and this is especially clear later on during the bronze age where Sardinian pottery first appears in Sicily rather than in mainland Italy and when Mycenaean pottery finds in Sardinia are mostly focused on the gulf of Cagliari rather than in the North. There's also a relatively recent study on pigs' DNA that suggests the existence of a pig trade between Sicily/South Italy and Sardinia during the middle bronze age which against suggests a direct route.

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    Look what I've found looking up the history of the Elba island:
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piane_alla_Sughera
    "The megalithic necropolis of the Piane alla Sughera - in some texts also Piana alla Sughera - is located on the island of Elba, on the plateau above the village of Seccheto and in the municipal area of Campo nell'Elba, at an altitude of 335 m ( 42 ° 44'25.16 "N 10 ° 09'33.17" E). The site hosts some circle tombs with vertical markings (menhirs), along with small groups of dense stones. The entire complex belongs to the so-called Culture of Arzachena-Ozieri, developed in northern Sardinia."
    That's why it looks just like the Li Muri necropolis in North East Sardinia

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