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Thread: R1a in Bulgaria

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    R1a in Bulgaria

    Here is the official DNA analysis on Bulgarians based upon 855 individuals throughout the country including the Islam areas.
    Y-DNA - Bulgaria
    I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
    I2a 20% (South Slavic)
    I2b 1% (South Slavic)
    R1a 18% (Slavic)
    R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
    G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
    J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
    E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
    T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
    Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)

    Aside from I2a and I2b....Is the R1a in Bulgaria correct? Only 20%?? I feel like it should be higher.

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    Very interesting. Any links to ancient Bulgars?

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    Haplogroup I is coming from PIE period so calling I2a as South Slavic Am I wrong?

    Can you give the source, of course if it is not in Bulgarian .


    Is there anything about sub-haplogroups? It is very important.

    Example maybe major sub R1b haplogroup in Bulgaria is similar with Turkmen, which shows that it is not related with Celtic genes

    As Bulgarian origin Turk who is also R1a. Is there any detail about division of R1a and its sub-groups in Bulgaria?

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    Well I2a was probably not originally south slavic but today it is most common among slavic countries, specifically south slavic..which is why I labeled it is South Slavs. I don't know if this is right or not but on Eupedia this is what it says.....

    Haplogroup I2 is the most common paternal lineage in former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and Sardinia, and a major lineage in most Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed in Bosnia (55%, including 71% in Bosnian Croats), Sardinia (39.5%), Croatia (38%), Serbia (33%), Montenegro (31%), Romania (28%), Moldova (24%), Macedonia (24%), Slovenia (22%), Bulgaria (22%), Belarus (18.5%), Hungary (18%), Slovakia (17.5%), Ukraine (13.5%), and Albania (13.5%). It is found at a frequency of 5 to 10% in Germanic countries.

    also on this site where it says


    it says...
    I2a Haplotype #4
    This haplotype is difficult to assess because it is close to an R1a signature,
    and many of the matches here may be the result of convergence. The hits in
    Pakistan and Norway are particularly suspect, not just because the locales
    are typically R1a, but because the DYS385a value for these is 11 - also
    typically R1a. Paradoxically, the DYS385a value of 13, which is more
    typical of an I haplotype, was found only among the Far East Asian hits.

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    R1b is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain not at all common for Turkmen. As for Ancient Bulgars, there is no significant evidence of DNA suggesting evidence of them in Bulgaria today. DNA Q, the only Asian based DNA, is only 1% which is very insignificant. This makes me believe that Bulgars were not Turkic or Asian people...they may have migrated from the Caucasians or Caspian sea area but were most likely of the same of similar ethnicity to the Thracian from what I am trying to gather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    I really don't think R1b is Turkmen at all, it is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain.
    how about R1b-L23?

    I suspect many different subclades of R1b because of the vicinity to the Pontic steppe but the last ones were R1b-L23 Myceneans and Dorians and Phrygians and Armenians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Here is the official DNA analysis on Bulgarians based upon 855 individuals throughout the country including the Islam areas.
    Y-DNA - Bulgaria
    I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
    I2a 20% (South Slavic)
    I2b 1% (South Slavic)
    R1a 18% (Slavic)
    R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
    G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
    J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
    E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
    T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
    Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)

    Aside from I2a and I2b....Is the R1a in Bulgaria correct? Only 20%?? I feel like it should be higher.
    I don't know how right it is to associate haplogroups to certain "ethnic" or linguistic groups,since we don't have genetic picture exactly how the said groups look above genetically and which genes were prevalent among them, i will say that is just wrong to sort haplogroups to linguistic groups and exonyms from written sources.That is your mistake in my opinion.


    For the ancient "Bulgars" my opinion to where we can trace them archeologically and from written sources and in opinion of some others they came from the present Ukraine and Cimmerian Bosphorus roughly will illustrate with map later, The Pereshchepina Treasure was discovered in 1912 by Ukrainian peasants in the vicinity of Poltava, in village Malo Pereshchepyne.The ring of ruler Kubrat were found there,he was Heraclius ally against Avars,but what will lead to their attack later we have scarce sources.

    In my opinion they were similar group to present day inhabitants of the Balkan peninsula genetically,pick the South-Slavs.

    Cimmerian boshporus



    Old Great Bulgaria as it is called roughly



    If this can help you somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    R1b is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain not at all common for Turkmen. As for Ancient Bulgars, there is no significant evidence of DNA suggesting evidence of them in Bulgaria today. DNA Q, the only Asian based DNA, is only 1% which is very insignificant. This makes me believe that Bulgars were not Turkic or Asian people...they may have migrated from the Caucasians or Caspian sea area but were most likely of the same of similar ethnicity to the Thracian from what I am trying to gather.
    it depends on what kind of R1b you are talking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Well I2a was probably not originally south slavic but today it is most common among slavic countries, specifically south slavic.

    I totally agree, but its sound is still like not proper for me. Maybe I am obsessive person . I hope you will understand me when you read all post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    R1b is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain
    If you look at this yeah, you are right.Those Bulgarians are children of Celts or other Western Europeans


    However is it truth? Here is some other sub groups map

    Atlanto-Celtic Branch


    Italio-Celtic Branch


    Iberic Branch


    Balkan-Anatolia Branch


    SO SUB-HAPLOGROUPS MATTERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    not at all common for Turkmen.


    Uyghurs, Turkmens and Bashkirs are have significant R1b population, but apperantly currents researches says Turkmens are mostly Q

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    As for Ancient Bulgars, there is no significant evidence of DNA suggesting evidence of them in Bulgaria today. DNA Q, the only Asian based DNA, is only 1% which is very insignificant. This makes me believe that Bulgars were not Turkic or Asian people...they may have migrated from the Caucasians or Caspian sea area but were most likely of the same of similar ethnicity to the Thracian from what I am trying to gather.
    I don't believe Asian theory or Turkic. True term can be Slavized Balkanians. However the percent of genes which comes from Pro-Turks could be more. Especially Western Turkic people also have Caucasoid genetic structure.

    Whatever that enough for R1b lets move to R1a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Here is the official DNA analysis on Bulgarians based upon 855 individuals throughout the country including the Islam areas.
    Y-DNA - Bulgaria
    I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
    I2a 20% (South Slavic)
    I2b 1% (South Slavic)
    R1a 18% (Slavic)
    R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
    G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
    J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
    E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
    T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
    Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)

    Aside from I2a and I2b....Is the R1a in Bulgaria correct? Only 20%?? I feel like it should be higher.
    That's interesting Ivan, though pretty different from the stats given here on Eupedia. R1b, J2 and even Q and R1a is lower in Eupedia statistics while G and E1b1b is higher. Also, I2b is not typically South Slavic but typically Germanic.

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    Very interesting indeed, and I found a very nice article online another research on Bulgarians concluding that they have a "Slavic-Mediterranean" gene blend. It is not letting me post the link right now because I do not have enough posts. If you google "Bulgarians Are Purely Indo-European, Not Turkic - Gene Study" you will find it, its the first one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    If you google "Bulgarians Are Purely Indo-European, Not Turkic - Gene Study" you will find it, its the first one.
    My Friend, don't turn of your brain and start protecting mode.

    First of Bulgarian are lingusticly indo-european, but there is NO WAY TO BE PURELY GENETIC INDO-EUROPEAN.

    I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
    I2a 20% (South Slavic)
    I2b 1% (South Slavic)
    R1a 18% (Slavic)
    R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
    G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
    J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
    E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
    T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
    Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)


    Q-T-E-J2 and I1 are not indo-european which means 41% according to your research.

    G2a-I2a can be found in Indo-Europeans and Pre-Indoeuropean cultures in Europe, so we need to check subhaplogroups. Example 30% of I2a is coming from ancient European genes and 70% of I2a is comimg from Indo European. But we don't know it.


    Secondly analysing and saying Turkic or not, with just looking Asian Admixture or haplogroup Q is also very incorrect method. Even the begining Turks have R1a gene and other genes. And East Asian admixture increase after centuries, and centuries till end of Mongol Invasion so it is not much at the begining.


    Even still they have strong West Eurasian genetic structure. But when you focus on East Asian you are ignoring half of genetic material.



    Some maybe R1a-z93 in Bulgaria is also coming from Central Asia



    What do you think how much percent of Bulgarian genes related with Volga Bulgars?

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    Only 1% of genes are Q, having to any Asian relation to those Theorized Asian Bulgars. I1 is Indo European it is Nordic and yes, Turks do have a little bit of R1a genes, but how do you think they got them? Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Only 1% of genes are Q, having to any Asian relation to those Theorized Asian Bulgars. I1 is Indo European it is Nordic and yes, Turks do have a little bit of R1a genes, but how do you think they got them? Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.
    If not mistaken I is the oldest haplogroup in Europe, that split from IJ some 25000 ybp. I do not think it can be labeled as Indo European. This is what wiki say about haplogroups in Bulgaria

    Bulgarians show the highest diversity of haplogroups in Europe, marked by significant (> 10%) frequencies of 5 major haplogroups (compared to Atlantic Europe, dominated by > 50% R1b). Most Bulgarians belong to three unrelated Y-DNA haplogroups, 20% of whom to I-M423 (I2a1b), 18% to E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a) and 17.5% to R-M17 (R1a1a), but the biggest part belongs to macro-haplgoroup R

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    I1 is Indo European it is Nordic and yes
    ,
    People of I were living in Europe before Indo-Europeans. When the first Indo-Europeans came to Pontic Steps, they found I and I2 people and they mixed. However in that time, far away from the Pontic Step in the different part of Europe some people who had haplogroup I, got a mutation and became I1. Even map says, PIE met with I and I2, not I2a


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Turks do have a little bit of R1a genes, but how do you think they got them? Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.
    In your way, Irano-West European and a little bit Caucasian, African, Arab, Slavic, Ancient European, West Indian, Uralic... . Genetic is a new term. Before that nations were made by religions and lungustic. Genetic is crushing everything.

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    To generalize broadly, Ydna "I2" was first European H-G, then it became farmer, then it got picked up by Indo-Europeans. So, the autosomal signature was different depending on the era. Some of the newer members might want to use our search engine for some up to date information on it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.
    So true, many of them don’t even know who their ancestors were. Were they Arabs? Were they Greeks? Were they Armenians? Were they Georgians? Or maybe they were actually the 'real' Turks from the Altai? Most of them don't even know that. LMAO!!!


    Turks are not just bi- or tri-racial, but ULTRA multi-interracial-species. More mixed than the Brazilians..


    But their original homeland is in the Altai Mountains, near China. Turks are Turanic/Mongoloid people and you can see that on them. They have mostly in general still those broad faces and small (East Asian) eyes.



    Their Language is East Asian, alien to West Asia. And personally I don't like it how it sounds. It sounds very strange to my ears..
    Last edited by Goga; 13-06-16 at 20:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    My Friend, don't turn of your brain and start protecting mode.

    First of Bulgarian are lingusticly indo-european, but there is NO WAY TO BE PURELY GENETIC INDO-EUROPEAN.

    I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
    I2a 20% (South Slavic)
    I2b 1% (South Slavic)
    R1a 18% (Slavic)
    R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
    G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
    J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
    E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
    T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
    Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)


    Q-T-E-J2 and I1 are not indo-european which means 41% according to your research.

    G2a-I2a can be found in Indo-Europeans and Pre-Indoeuropean cultures in Europe, so we need to check subhaplogroups. Example 30% of I2a is coming from ancient European genes and 70% of I2a is comimg from Indo European. But we don't know it.


    Secondly analysing and saying Turkic or not, with just looking Asian Admixture or haplogroup Q is also very incorrect method. Even the begining Turks have R1a gene and other genes. And East Asian admixture increase after centuries, and centuries till end of Mongol Invasion so it is not much at the begining.


    Even still they have strong West Eurasian genetic structure. But when you focus on East Asian you are ignoring half of genetic material.



    Some maybe R1a-z93 in Bulgaria is also coming from Central Asia



    What do you think how much percent of Bulgarian genes related with Volga Bulgars?
    Intriguing info Boreas. If I may ask, in your opinion, what the original y-dna haplogroups of the original Turkic speakers were before the assimilation of other groups and their spread? So many Turkic groups nowadays have such a strong variety in haplogroups and admixture that it seems impossible to detail their genetic history or legacies.. (To put this in the context of the thread, it would help out in asserting which clades of R1a should be looked at if we want to judge the impact of the Bulgars. Note, R1a-Z93 could be Scythian as well.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    So true, many of them don’t even know who their ancestors were. Were they Arabs? Were they Greeks? Were they Armenians? Were they Georgians? Or maybe they were actually the 'real' Turks from the Altai? Most of them don't even know that. LMAO!!!


    Turks are not just bi- or tri-racial, but ULTRA multi-interracial-species. More mixed than the Brazilians..


    But their original homeland is in the Altai Mountains, near China. Turks are Turanic/Mongoloid people and you can see that on them. They have mostly in general still those broad faces and small (East Asian) eyes.
    You means Modern Turks are Turanic(genetic) ???

    Altai Mountains are also East border of Afanasevo and Andronovo cultures whose are known as Europoid, so Altai Region is not a far far a land for PIE

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Their Language is East Asian, alien to West Asia. And personally I don't like it how it sounds. It sounds very strange to my ears..
    We are talking about genetic my friend, not lingustic. I respect your opinion, but I am not sure that you are not adding your ethnic hate into it.

    Turkish has vowel harmony rules for words also it is an agglutinative language and each add changes according to vowel of the word. But as I said topic is genetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    So true, many of them don’t even know who their ancestors were. Were they Arabs? Were they Greeks? Were they Armenians? Were they Georgians? Or maybe they were actually the 'real' Turks from the Altai? Most of them don't even know that. LMAO!!!


    Turks are not just bi- or tri-racial, but ULTRA multi-interracial-species. More mixed than the Brazilians..


    But their original homeland is in the Altai Mountains, near China. Turks are Turanic/Mongoloid people and you can see that on them. They have mostly in general still those broad faces and small (East Asian) eyes.



    Their Language is East Asian, alien to West Asia. And personally I don't like it how it sounds. It sounds very strange to my ears..
    Relax Goga, 99.999% of humans do not care about ancient genetics, and most people think of it as forensic related to crime and so on. Unfortunately a good number of ones that do they only became interested hoping to discover some kind of superiority in their tribe (whatever mixture that is) only to find out that we all come from Africa. Find some time to relax and have a party, as you are building too many thick walls around you, and that can be detrimental for you health. We only have one life.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Relax Goga, 99.999% of humans do not care about ancient genetics, and most people think of it as forensic related to crime and so on. Unfortunately a good number of ones that do they only became interested hoping to discover some kind of superiority in their tribe (whatever mixture that is) only to find out that we all come from Africa. Find some time to relax and have a party, as you are building too many thick walls around you, and that can be detrimental for you health. We only have one life.
    I couldn't agree more. Relax dude and hug your neighbor.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuan View Post
    Intriguing info Boreas. If I may ask, in your opinion, what the original y-dna haplogroups of the original Turkic speakers were before the assimilation of other groups and their spread? So many Turkic groups nowadays have such a strong variety in haplogroups and admixture that it seems impossible to detail their genetic history or legacies.. (To put this in the context of the thread, it would help out in asserting which clades of R1a should be looked at if we want to judge the impact of the Bulgars. Note, R1a-Z93 could be Scythian as well.)
    Really hard question. If you asked Mongolian, I would say haplogroup C. But origin of Turkic people?

  23. #23
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    Bulgarians do not have Turkic DNA or origins, we are not associated with them. I know that some sources claim that Bulgars were a Turkic tribe, most scholars deny this. There is no evidence of them being a Turkic tribe, they did come from Western Asian/Caucasian area, some scholars say they come from Eastern Iran. Anyways, let's not discuss about Turkish or Turkic people, we have no connections with them and DNA conforms this. I want to focus on the Indo-European genes we have, most are very interesting, especially in ratios. Bulgarians have a very high Celtic DNA. In Igenea it says that that this is the DNA of Bulgarians: R1b - 41%
    E1b1b - 31%
    R1a - 28%;

    With R1b being Celtic, E1b1b Thracian and R1a Slavic.

  24. #24
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Alexandrov View Post
    Bulgarians do not have Turkic DNA or origins, we are not associated with them. I know that some sources claim that Bulgars were a Turkic tribe, most scholars deny this. There is no evidence of them being a Turkic tribe, they did come from Western Asian/Caucasian area, some scholars say they come from Eastern Iran. Anyways, let's not discuss about Turkish or Turkic people, we have no connections with them and DNA conforms this. I want to focus on the Indo-European genes we have, most are very interesting, especially in ratios. Bulgarians have a very high Celtic DNA. In Igenea it says that that this is the DNA of Bulgarians: R1b - 41%
    E1b1b - 31%
    R1a - 28%;

    With R1b being Celtic, E1b1b Thracian and R1a Slavic.
    I feel like I have to say samething over and over

    I didn't say Bulgars are Turkic, I said Turkic DNA could be not just 1% (as you said) maybe 3-5%, don't worry it won't make you Turkic. Your pure blood Slavic Indo-European Bulgar Nation is still clear.

    Looking at day and night loop and say that ground is stable, sun and moon is turning around it. This is not a science.

    Yes, Celts are mostly R1b, but which R1b?

    Main R1b group in Bulgaria is not Atlanto-Celtic

    "The R1b in Bulgaria maybe came there with Indoeuropeans befor they split up into celtic, slavic and germanic tribes."
    (from Igenea)

    Which can be true instead of your Celtic r1b Bulgar theory.

    Similary R1a is not just Slavic. R1a became before the first Slav start to walk on Earth.

    "Maybe the bulgarian R1a is not slavic R1a - which is possible as not every R1a is slavic.
    Slavs also had other haplogroups, but it is very common that modern ethnic groups or peoples do not consist of only one ancient tribe that lived 2.000 years ago. Todays Slavs are not totally the same as the Slavs that spread over eastern Europe 1.500 years ago."
    (from Igenea)

    by the way thanks for help, I gain a new source.

    On the other hand, the other fact is coming up, Igenea results are too much different then your first. It should be side effect of this kind of search are based on limited samples.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    R1a in Bulgarian is like 7.5% of the Slavic M458 and 7.5% of the Slavic Z280 also really small traces of some other subtypes.
    I2a Din is one of the most typical genes associated with Slavs, especially South and East Slavs.
    R1b is Bulgaria is 5% L23 which is Balkan and Anadolian, 2% of the Italic U152 and some traces of other subtypes.
    E1b1b is 20%(maybe more) of the Balkan types called E-V13
    J2 is of 5% of the Balkan type J2b2 the rest is mostly J2a which is West Asian and South Euro and Kavkaz.
    G2a is mostly of the European type, not the Kavkaz one
    R1a and I2a in Bulgaria are associated with the so called Slavs(everybody that speak the language is a Slav)
    Gypsy in Bulgarians should be about 1% and Turkic(not Turkish) aboout 2%
    We are mostly descendent from ancient Med tribes( the so called Thrachian and the one's before them) and Slavs.

    Goths, Vikings, Hellenics, Turkics( not Turkish ) and Celts have also left their track.
    Ivan do a Family Tree DNA Test :)

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