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Thread: Brexit

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The Welsh dragon is a favorite of mine, but that is hideous, and doesn't do tincture correctly. If they're going to mix the Welsh and English flags, it's much better to have the dragon in the canton, or to instead incorporate St. David's cross into the inside or outside of St. George's cross. One of these:



    (made in Paint in 3 minutes so imagine that they aren't sloppy)
    coming to think of it now Im seeing this is that wales has never been represented in the Union Jack. Did the Welsh never complain about this?............

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    Sparkey, what about these versions?:



    Or maybe:


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    Once question that comes to mind. What is going to happen to all the EU nationals (especially Poles who are the largest) that have settled in the UK. I guess we have to wait for the new prime minister (who has backed the leave campaign) to decide their faith. Any people benefiting on social services will be first to go. Others paying taxes might be granted visas or even nationality. Who knows....Its a closed box as the details were never really spilled out really (I think).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm not sure if EU was more insensitive than most national governments. I think that pendulum has swung towards conservatism and nationalism these days due to slow economy, terrorism and too much immigration. In a decade the populous mood might be way different.
    There might be unforeseen circumstances though. Possibly Scotland and North Ireland will separate from GB and jon EU instead? If city of London could have done it they would.


    Voting by demographics:



    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-eu-referendum

    The smart and the young wanted to stay in.
    I will reply with my same response from the other thread here because you are speaking quite condescendingly and ignoring the deeper trend so that you can make simple pejoratives.

    I would say it's a fair assertion to claim that the young wanted to stay in, but this analysis at the end here of "the young and the smart" is quite weak and misses the global trend that is taking place across almost all western countries.

    First I want to say that I've seen your posts here Lebrok, it's obvious to me you are an intelligent individual. So there is no need on your part to pretend intelligence or "smarts" is the equivalent of not receiving a higher education. I point this out because it completely misses the point of a very important trend taking place, one which is much more highly correlated with income, the factor you failed to comment on. Western Countries are facing an identity crisis whithin their own populations, the split of which is being created by the two very different lifestyles created by those who have wealth and those without it in an increasingly globalized world.


    The upper class establishment of western countries favor the status quo which produces their authority, wealth and lifestyle. They are reared in a much more globalized environment compared to a person of the working class. They grow up in large multi cultural cities without much interaction with the native population other than other people of the upper class.(who may or may not be foreign themselves) When they go on vacation they do not go to the countryside but to foreign countries. These same foreign countries are the places where their families wealth is created. He finds the other elites of Madrid, Berlin, Paris, New York, Los Angeles more familiar to him than his countrymen living in the suburbs around the city he was born.


    The working class perspective is much different. Take immigration for example. When an immigrant moves into the country, he moves into the traditional neighborhood of the working class man. The working class man now sees the area he grew up in become a foreign place. He has to compete with this new immigrant for a job and access to healthcare. He has to deal with the crime the immigrants commit in his community which no longer resembles that of his childhood. He has to watch his own culture of the place he called home change before his eyes. Meanwhile the upper class man never experiences any of these factors, they live in a globalized world sheltered from the repercussions the working man has to live with. The upper class man never developed the same sense of home, culture and nationality as the working class man. His culture is that of his class, his home is where he can obtain more wealth and therefore his nationality is global


    The elitist education of the upper class leads them to believe they know best for everyone, including the working class of their own country which they know almost nothing about other than that these people "are living in the past". The truth is both groups are living in the same present and that this present has created two very different worlds for people with money and those who work to obtain it. Western countries are now split between the wealthy establishment enforcing a globalist outlook which drives their profit and a resentful working class reacting to the elites in their country ignoring their existence. The only reason we are seeing a shift toward the right wing tendencies is because the elites are now made up of the left, albeit a capitalistic left. The deeper fissure that has created this move toward the right is actually a populist/elitist divide and it's important to understand this.


    The issue of Trump in America and Brexit in the UK is a nativist working class reaction to neglect from a globaly minded elite who have ignored the needs of the native working class so much they have radicalized them to an extent. What's interesting to me is the media and the elite do not even see this divide. They have become so obsessed with their elite status and "highly educated" opinion they believe it's sufficient to call everyone who disagrees with them "dumb, racist and ignorant" and that the simple minds of the majority of the population are being coerced by "sensationalism and demagoguery". I mean, why else would they not just do everything the elites wish them to?




    Of course I am writing in a biased fashion in favor of the populist outlook. But can anyone blame me when the elites have so thoroughly neglected the opinions of the average citizen in favor for what they stubbornly believe is best for everyone else when in reality they are only self serving?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    coming to think of it now Im seeing this is that wales has never been represented in the Union Jack. Did the Welsh never complain about this?............
    Wales was considered politically incorporated into England from 1535 to the 1990s, and the Union Jack was made in 1606 to add Scotland and amended in 1801 to add Ireland. So, St. George's cross represented both England and Wales. After devolution, there have been some calls to incorporate Wales separately into the Union Jack, but realistically, the Union Jack is not likely to change unless something drastic happens to the UK.

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    I have seen all graphicks about the analysis of Brexit/Bremain votes,

    Ethnic minorities and Muslims were Remainers, while whites and Christians were Outers.
    Lord Ashcroft said: “A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to Remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to Leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
    “Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to Remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to Leave by 55% to 45%.
    “Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to Leave. A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to Remain, as 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education.
    “Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave. White voters voted to Leave the EU by 53% to 47%.
    “Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to Remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters.
    “Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to Leave; seven in 10 Muslims voted to Remain.”
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Wales was considered politically incorporated into England from 1535 to the 1990s, and the Union Jack was made in 1606 to add Scotland and amended in 1801 to add Ireland. So, St. George's cross represented both England and Wales. After devolution, there have been some calls to incorporate Wales separately into the Union Jack, but realistically, the Union Jack is not likely to change unless something drastic happens to the UK.
    Thanks for explanation Sparkey.....Interesting. I was not aware of that. I think that the Scottish separation from England and the unification of Ireland might be brought back to the discussion table. In my opinion (and experience), Just like how always the UK was skeptical about the EU and in a way even surprised how it remained part of the union for so long, I feel its only a matter of time before the Scotts will have their own fully autonomous Parliament, and Ireland will become one country again. From experience I know how very proud both scotts and Irish are. The average man on the street does not shy away from expressing their opinion towards the English, and how fiery they get if called English :). Its only a shell of 'relative' calm with a kind of semi turbulent interior.

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  9. #34
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    I was reading that if Brexit was done (finish) today at all matters,

    by the 'wise guys' of exit seems like 300 000 Uk citizen would find a job cause many would be considered as immigrants and will need a work licence card which might not get outside Eu laws,
    and about 500 000 would be forced to leave the UK.
    only at football matters it would more easier to pay the locals than foreigns, cause the extra tax to foreign players would took place,
    meaning that at least 300 non UK football players might never entry UK,

    on the other hand the 'wise guys' of remain say that UK will lost 550 000 jobs until 2020, mainly at multiethnic London, but by far less at countryside,
    they also say that Britain can not start its own industrial policy (old BS) and must still continue to produce according EU stantards, (CE)
    something that ties UK to todays production,
    part of the wealth of UK is due to ability to change stantards at 18 and 19 century, like the case of Australian railway, which is made by tottaly 3 different parts, and a common train can not travel all railway,

    anyway I do not consider Uk so stupid, to be drawn at teaspoon full of water,
    and I do not believe all these Cassandras that predict the end of the world, frightening the british voters
    THE WORLD WILL END WHEN SUN TURNS OFF,
    BUT THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT HAS ENDED MANY TIMES, to start a new one

    Now i still wonder how EU will force the UK to accept her stantards, in medicines for example,
    or how UK will react if EU close the doors to british merchants,
    when the maximum of the world naval transportation has its base to England
    and the biggest insurance stantrds for cargo insurance were created by British,
    on the other hand surely UK might lose a good market for exportations,
    but will gain in securing stantard values for not importing cheap labour masses, meaning a better count control of NHS and insurance retirement services,

    anyway I do not believe that EU is in danger,
    simply unprepaired. and surely must change its standards, than the cheap policy to her citizen that is today,
    and the extra hand to big corporations and bankers

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I was reading that if Brexit was done (finish) today at all matters,anyway I do not consider Uk so stupid, to be drawn at teaspoon full of water,
    and I do not believe all these Cassandras that predict the end of the world, frightening the british voters
    THE WORLD WILL END WHEN SUN TURNS OFF,
    BUT THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT HAS ENDED MANY TIMES, to start a new one
    I will agree to this. However I believe that there is going to be a bumpy ride in the short medium term. During the bumpy ride there are going to new arguments and new sentiments towards the EU and I truly believe that there is not going to be some quick gratification to celebrate Brexit, maybe the opposite, but who knows. Most people who voted to leave did not really sit down and do the Maths but just absorbed the lovely soothing buzz words that suited the fears (irrational or not) of the present situation. The reality is there is no turning back. Britain has to Leave and I agree the sooner the better both for Britain and for the EU.

    Ireland seems to be set to benefit from all this as it might absorb some of the investments since its close by. My country unfortunately will have a blow in tourism as the Brits are the nr 1 contributers and now holidays will be much more expensive unless the British pound stabilizes. There are also (like in Spain) many expats which might have a knock on effect.

    It now really all depend on how kind the EU will be to Britain in this transition. However all in all Britain has not really been kind to the EU even thou it has seen its wealth grow significantly since the time it joined the block so some reason why should the EU be kind? I feel sorry however for the amazing over 70% of the younger British people who seem to have a different approach towards the EU project and I really feel that they should not be punished as they are the leaders of tomorrow and the EU should find ways how the interaction would continue without being too isolated.

    The irony is that we might see Boris (who is quarter Turkish by the way with swiss Jewish German and I dont what else ancestory) as prime minister and preaching how Great Britian is and how to contain immigration (lol). I got nausea hearing a women (don't know where she is from) speaking in broken English saying she voted leave because her son (16) is born in Britian and he is finding very difficult to find a job because the IMMIGRANTS are taking all the jobs.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHNfvJc99YY

    Britons will not be slaves. (the patriotic song says) And Brussels seems to have been the master. :) Its much about nostalgia and pride and less about economics. A future British (English) prime minister has to work hard to satisfy the expectations. Lots of work ahead. The new prime minister will either be considered a hero, or viewed as a traitor, not much space for middle of the road.

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    well England was always 'her way'


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    What do you think is going to be with property markets in the UK and the EU? I believe in the slight fall of prices in England and Spain. Spain will suffer a wane of demand for real estate from British buyers who were extremely active in this market. And in London the weak pound will play its part to attract new foreign investors (according to brokers' forecasts https://tranio.com/united-kingdom/ne...e-the-eu_5152/) The real estate market in Britain may even benefit from heightened foreign interest

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    I seem to have missed this bit. 10 years for Brexit? Might as well not leave at all

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...appen-warns-f/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Tomenable, wake up. Its not all about Abdul believe me. Besides the Brits and allies were fighting Nazism and Fascism. How unrealistic and cynical. You know the saying of living in glass houses and throwing stones?....apart that, there might be much more Kumars then Abduls.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36656348

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Tomenable, wake up. Its not all about Abdul believe me. Besides the Brits and allies were fighting Nazism and Fascism. How unrealistic and cynical. You know the saying of living in glass houses and throwing stones?....apart that, there might be much more Kumars then Abduls.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36656348
    I never looked at this video, but now that I have, I don't even understand what it was getting at; it seems totally illogical and disjointed to me, other than the usual oversimplified rant that Brits voted for Brexit solely out of xenophobic fear of Muslims, which fear is justified because they all want to strap suicide belts around their waists. Oh, that's oversimplified too; aren't those kinds of Brits also upset about the Polish immigration?

    Is it my imagination, or do a lot of these kinds of internet rants have a sort of "sexual" component to them? You know, they're going to take our women. Some people never get very far from their atavistic impulses.

    Anyway, maybe I need to take another coffee; I feel a bit slow this morning.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I never looked at this video, but now that I have, I don't even understand what it was getting at; it seems totally illogical and disjointed to me, other than the usual oversimplified rant that Brits voted for Brexit solely out of xenophobic fear of Muslims, which fear is justified because they all want to strap suicide belts around their waists. Oh, that's oversimplified too; aren't those kinds of Brits also upset about the Polish immigration?

    Is it my imagination, or do a lot of these kinds of internet rants have a sort of "sexual" component to them? You know, they're going to take our women. Some people never get very far from their atavistic impulses.

    Anyway, maybe I need to take another coffee; I feel a bit slow this morning.
    Well said. Besides there is also a message about the young and old divide, portraying the pro EU youngsters as some kind of teenage sluts are lured by 'Muslim sex' (how sick) when in fact we know that the most educated and well informed and well travelled British youths were more likely to vote in favor of the EU. Buon Giorno by the way . I will be off to sleep in a few hours

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    Look I posted that video mainly because it is funny. Not that I agree with 100% of what it says.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is it my imagination, or do a lot of these kinds of internet rants have a sort of "sexual" component to them? You know, they're going to take our women.
    Hmm, yes indeed - probably you are right. This video is a "more educated rant" about this issue:


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    ^^^ All of those are of course just rants by supporters of the Evil Western Patriarchy:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    Oh, that's oversimplified too; aren't those kinds of Brits also upset about the Polish immigration?
    I have been discussing
    on ScyscraperCity Forum with some Poles who live in the UK.

    Most of these Poles are very Pro-Muslim, Pro-Multiculturalism, with very leftist views, etc. They feel as part of this cultural "enrichment" process too. So I am not surprised that Brits also get upset about them. Even my own
    cousin who emigrated to Germany several years ago and lives in Hannover is now very much in favour of taking in refugees and of open borders for Germany. Her facebook friends are mostly people with Non-European ancestry who live in Germany. In Hannover there are probably more Turks and other Muslims than Germans, as she says. So I wouldn't be surprised if Germans who vote for parties such as AfD also don't like Polish immigration.

    Most of Poles who live in the UK have similar views to LeBrok. They would welcome unlimited numbers of Muslims.

    Is it really surprising that various groups of immigrants support each other ???

    Yes, Polish immigrants are also part of this problem, because they buddy up with Muslim immigrants.

    You see, I am far from white-washing my own ethnic group or defending it.

    If the majority of Brits think that Poles are causing problems in the UK, then they are probably right.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    I have been discussing
    on ScyscraperCity Forum with some Poles who live in the UK. Most of these Poles are very Pro-Muslim, Pro-Multiculturalism, with very leftist views, etc. They feel as part of this cultural "enrichment" process. So I am not surprised that Brits also get upset about them. Even my own cousin who emigrated to Germany several years ago and now lives in Hannover is now very much in favour of taking in refugees and of open borders for Germany. Her facebook friends are mostly people with Non-European background who live in Germany. So I wouldn't be surprised if Germans who vote for parties such as AfD also don't like Polish immigration.

    Most of Poles who live in the UK have similar views to LeBrok. They would welcome unlimited numbers of Muslims in Britain.

    Is it surprising that immigrants support each other ???

    Tomenable, it's irrelevant what opinions the Poles who immigrated to the U.K. actually have. The issue is what do British people of the Brexit variety think of Polish immigration? That may have nothing to do with how Poles feel about Muslim immigration or indeed how assimilated they actually are...it may have to do strictly with economics, with the fact that they believe they are taking jobs away from U.K.people.

    It might even be true that the non-Brexit Brits don't mind immigration, or are willing to put up with it for the benefits they perceive as accruing to EU membership, but are not very keen on immigration from Poland because they think it's a hotbed of racist, white supremacist anti-Muslim ideology. You might be right, and those are not the opinions of the Poles actually in the U.K., but as I said, there's often a big gap between stereotype and reality.

    See:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-brexit-vote/

    David Cameron said numerous times that EU nationals are a drain on the U.K. Social Welfare system.

    These are the same kinds of things that are said here about Mexican immigrants.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/134283...ng-high-again/
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...arden-benefits

    Basically, they don't care how "white" Poles are; it's not relevant.

    Don't take it to heart. During WW2 there was a famous saying in the U.K. about the American military personnel: over-paid, over-sexed, and over here.

    Among some UK people the concern has more to do with their perception of the values of these Polish migrants. Notice I said perceived, not actual. I would think this is probably more prevalent among liberal, more upper class stay-in-Brexit types, but bizarrely it also seems to have led some people to vote for Brexit.

    "It is very strange to me that there has been little to any commentary on Polish racism towards Black and Asian British people. This is the only reason that I shall be voting out. I am fed up of many Polish people that i have encountered leveling racism my way – the use of the N word seems to be perfectly fine to them. I do not see why I should have to put up with being called a monkey just because Polish people come from a homogeneously white country and rarely encounter people of other races. Polish people have imported their own discriminatory practices into the UK and made life very difficult for many British people of colour."

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/20...eir-whiteness/

    Tomenable,

    This last video is blocked, but I have no idea how patriarchy enters into this discussion.

    Whoever is making those youtube spots really has to cut down on the drugs: what looks good and logical when someone is high doesn't present like that to someone who is sober.

    As for the others, feminism is totally off topic for this thread. I don't want to believe that you're the type who when a woman bests you at something responds with a rant about feminism.

    There's nothing at all wrong with the kitchen and the bedroom, Tomenable, so long as those aren't the only two rooms we're allowed to enter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post



    Most of Poles who live in the UK have similar views to LeBrok. They would welcome unlimited numbers of Muslims.

    There is no way to have any reasonable discussion with you, if you don't care for the facts. Cite me saying that I support unlimited Muslim immigration to Europe or unlimited immigration in general.
    My advice to you is, go abroad, see the world, meet all the people and stop being so freakishly afraid of anything and anyone that is different from what you see in your little place. If not, you are going to die frightened old man. Frightened of this Armageddon and Sodoma, which you think is coming, and coming, and coming, ever closer, and coming,...
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What they said



    What they will do

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7099906.html

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