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Thread: MtDna variability from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age in the Balearic Islands

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    MtDna variability from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age in the Balearic Islands

    You could actually say that it's mtDna variability from the Neolithic to the modern age.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...22883/abstract

    "Results

    We characterized the haplogroups of 138 individuals and obtained 69 sequences from mtDNA hypervariable region I. In the intra-island study, the apparent differences in social and funerary rites between two contiguous Majorcan necropolises were correlated with genetic characteristics. Also, the likely occurrence of consanguinity in a population with a very particular burial pattern was supported by genetic data. Despite the uniqueness of each necropolis, the global comparison of the five necropolises revealed no significant differences between them, or between ancient and modern populations from the islands. Ancient Balearics showed a similar mtDNA gene pool to Ancient Catalans, had a Near Eastern component, and showed continuity with European populations since at least the Bronze Age.


    Conclusion

    We characterized five Balearic necropolises in the context of their geographic and cultural characteristics. The similarity between ancient Balearic and ancient Catalan gene pools reinforces their known historic interactions, while the lack of a consistent genetic continuity with Ancient Sardinians suggests that Talaiotic and Nuragic cultures arose in differentiated populations."

    Unfortunately, it's not open access, although the Supporting Info is available, and it's not even whole mtDna sequences. However, it's interesting none the less.

    Here is the Supporting Info:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22883/suppinfo




    Basically, the mtDna hasn't changed from the Neolithic to the modern era if the abstract correctly reflects the data. So, will there be much of a change in the autosomes, and if they exist, were they then the results of male mediated gene flow?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I just looked at the K12b results for Baleares versus Sardinia:

    Baleares

    Gedrosia 5.5
    Siberian 0
    Northwest African 3.7
    Southeast Asian
    Atlanto Med 49.4
    North European 22.5
    South Asia .2
    East African 0
    Southwest Asia 4.4
    East Asian 0
    Caucasus 14.2
    SSA .1

    Sardinians

    Gedrosia 0
    Siberian 0
    Northwest African 2.6
    Southeast Asian 0
    Atlanto Med 70.5
    North European 0
    South Asia .1
    East African 0
    Southwest Asia 5.8
    East Asian 0
    Caucasus 20.9
    SSA 0

    I don't know what to make of that. We really need ancient autosomal dna not just mtDna.

    Does anyone remember if the Balearic Islands were ever put on a PCA with any of the early farmers, from Europe or Anatolia?

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    No, never seen them before on charts.
    From K12b run Baleares show more North European influence, about 20%. Either substantial IE invasion or Germanic one after Roman Empire collapse? Anyway, so much research for just mtDNA?!
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    No, never seen them before on charts.
    From K12b run Baleares show more North European influence, about 20%. Either substantial IE invasion or Germanic one after Roman Empire collapse? Anyway, so much research for just mtDNA?!
    Maybe migration from the mainland? However it happened, it can't have involved very many women.

    Another interesting thing in the paper is that they report results of a lot of work done by physical anthropologists.

    Morphologically, they say the people are "Gracile Mediterranean", although some skulls show "Eastern Mediterranean" crania. So aggravating. So many people in this field, including the academics, fail to define their terms. It's part of the reason for the mass confusion that sometimes seems to reign. How is an Eastern Med crania different from a Gracile Med crania?

    There is a lot of verbiage about the fact that the samples were degraded over the years, partly by people, partly by humidity and acid soils. That probably means this is the best they can do with samples from this area.

    If someone gets a chance to take a look at it, Table S8 in the second section of the Supplement is interesting.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As often with Spanish studies, it's a lot of work for little useful results since they did not even use full mtDNA sequences. When are they going to learn that knowing that an individual belongs to mt-haplogroup H, J or U is completely useless? We can't even distinguish Neolithic from Bronze-age Steppe mtDNA lineages. With full sequences I could have said if some lineages were of Indo-European origin. But not with this data. Real shame.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela

    To compare or look at K12b in modern balear populations is not a good deal. Take into account that it was invaded by Muslim pirates around 890 and I remember a map with the Berber and Arab clans ruling each village. In the reconquista only were found some Christians but were traders, there was not even a bishop by then. More changes happened after the reconquista of the XIII century, the Muslim that didn't fleed were slavized by their new Christian landowners, and even if the Christian colones were mainly Catalan many came from Languedoc, Provence and even Liguria. That is by no means comparable to Sardinia were Arabs were not able to succed and there was no Christian recolonization (except by some Catalan and Ligurian enclaves). Minorca had also a different fate as they surrended to Jaume I after seeing the fate of their neighbours.

    That said it is not profitable to make comparissions or calculations because it would be so profitable as to take 100 Americans includind Latinos and Afroamericans and try to compare them with actual populations... maybe they would match more with Tunisians?
    ;)

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    while the lack of a consistent genetic continuity with Ancient Sardinians suggests that Talaiotic and Nuragic cultures arose in differentiated populations
    the people buried in Santa Teresa di Gallura belonged to the Corsi tribe (they also inhabited Corsica). In the north-west of the island there was however a population called Balari who probably came from Spain and Southern France through the Balearic islands during the first Bell Beaker wave
    Last edited by Cato; 16-06-16 at 16:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Angela

    To compare or look at K12b in modern balear populations is not a good deal. Take into account that it was invaded by Muslim pirates around 890 and I remember a map with the Berber and Arab clans ruling each village. In the reconquista only were found some Christians but were traders, there was not even a bishop by then. More changes happened after the reconquista of the XIII century, the Muslim that didn't fleed were slavized by their new Christian landowners, and even if the Christian colones were mainly Catalan many came from Languedoc, Provence and even Liguria. That is by no means comparable to Sardinia were Arabs were not able to succed and there was no Christian recolonization (except by some Catalan and Ligurian enclaves). Minorca had also a different fate as they surrended to Jaume I after seeing the fate of their neighbours.

    That said it is not profitable to make comparissions or calculations because it would be so profitable as to take 100 Americans includind Latinos and Afroamericans and try to compare them with actual populations... maybe they would match more with Tunisians?
    ;)
    You're missing the point of the analysis. If a researcher says that there has been no change in mtDna since the Neolithic, but provides no autosomal analysis, one of the first things you want to do is to see if autosomally they resemble the people who have been shown again and again to be the closest to the ancient European farmers. They're not.

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    But as said, modern Balears and modern Sardinians have had different histories, and different histories imply different genes as I tried to explain. If you try to check if ancient Baleares were related to EEF good, but with modern Baleares, even if the study says that there was little change with ancient Baleares... I wouldn't do it. In whichever case the study says what you have found for modern populations:

    The similarity between ancient Balearic and ancient Catalan gene pools reinforces their known historic interactions, while the lack of a consistent genetic continuity with Ancient Sardinians suggests that Talaiotic and Nuragic cultures arose in differentiated populations.
    If both Islands are not so related could be by a stronger WHG component coming from Iberia in the Calcholithic (Balear samples are not more old than that), a component not provided by the Cardial colonizers of Sardinia in the Neolithic. Again different histories different genes. I missed also to explain that even the Roman colonization was different in Sardinia and Baleares as the last one received instead of Italic colonists Hispanoroman colonists, some of them barely romanized:

    tirtanos abulokum letontunos ke belikios

    abulokum-1.gif

    @Cato, the Sardinian tomb is dated to 1200 BC - 900 BC, and it's difficult at best to know if such historic Corsicans were already there by then.

    @all, basicaly it seems that the paper is a translation of this 2009 paper.

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    Re-read post #8. All of this information is very interesting, but all it does is support the conclusions that can be drawn by the Admixture analysis of the modern populations.

    Are you by chance a 23andme distant cousin of a once active member here called Drac II? I'm having a major attack of deja-vu.:)

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    Of course if the ancient populations were not so related the modern populations will be less related after receiving additional unrelated admixtures. Quite logic. But to take conclusions from modern populations is risky if you can't calculate which DNA is recently added. I don't know any computer capable to do that and there is not enough data to process it yet.

    As to give an example of the problem, which population will be more related to Italians? Actual French people? or the people inhabiting actual France after 500 years?

    For the second question I can't help you.

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    According to archaeologists (Lilliu, Ugas) and anthropologists (Germanà) these Corsicans were already there in the bronze age. Architecture, material culture and physical anthropology of nuragic north-east Sardinia and torrean southern Corsica were very similar

    Don't know about talayotic people but i believe that nuragic sardinians were not 100% EEF, they most likely had some minor steppe admixture like modern sardinians brought by beakers (copper age) and above all poladians (early bronze age)..physical anthopology show that brachycephaly increase from 0% in the neolithic to about 30% in the bronze age also new dolicocephalic types, included the corded type, appeared in the island (Germanà 1995)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Maybe migration from the mainland? However it happened, it can't have involved very many women.

    Another interesting thing in the paper is that they report results of a lot of work done by physical anthropologists.

    Morphologically, they say the people are "Gracile Mediterranean", although some skulls show "Eastern Mediterranean" crania. So aggravating. So many people in this field, including the academics, fail to define their terms. It's part of the reason for the mass confusion that sometimes seems to reign. How is an Eastern Med crania different from a Gracile Med crania?

    There is a lot of verbiage about the fact that the samples were degraded over the years, partly by people, partly by humidity and acid soils. That probably means this is the best they can do with samples from this area.

    If someone gets a chance to take a look at it, Table S8 in the second section of the Supplement is interesting.

    As a fan of drawing I 'm found of physical anthropology (except in X-supremacists fora). As you I regreat the confusion in terms and the differences of approach (new metrics surveys for the most based upon global means and distances opposed to traditional individual typology using sometimes unstandardized terms). The phenotypic traits depend upon only a small part of the autosomes but sometimes it can provide more precise differences between "cousin" populations. 'gracile mediterranean' already covers more than a true type I think (cardial # danubian/W-anatolian). But by 'eastern mediterranean' I suppose a more "viril" type with same dolichocephaly but more marked fronto-nasal profile, more receding and less "cerebral" frontal, more accute transitions of cranial lines, something more akin to the 'cappadocian' type on the way to 'indo-afghan' of someones, so more 'west-asian' autosomatically, more linked to South Caucasus Iran??? 'gedrosia' linked? But these types came also sometimes with the Steppic people too, mixed with other types (Steppes I-Eans?)
    THe more northern components of today Baleares people compared to Sardinians could have more than a source, in place and time (read Berun), and even its 'gedrosia' can have come through North and not through South (old question concerning western Europe) .
    @Cato: a number of the new people who appeared in metal ages in South did not leave too much physical imput (the same occurred in Spain and in Southern France,except some very small regions): here I speak of BBs and Corded types; the ones who leaved apparently the most were people from Aegea or Greece area during BA and after (Helladic time): every kind of 'mediter' + some light mixtures of others (Cordeds,BBs..) creating the so called 'ibero-insular' type born in Greece (humour of namings!) and become predominant in South-West.
    Now, I wrote too much and I have to read the paper!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    As a fan of drawing I 'm found of physical anthropology (except in X-supremacists fora). As you I regreat the confusion in terms and the differences of approach (new metrics surveys for the most based upon global means and distances opposed to traditional individual typology using sometimes unstandardized terms). The phenotypic traits depend upon only a small part of the autosomes but sometimes it can provide more precise differences between "cousin" populations. 'gracile mediterranean' already covers more than a true type I think (cardial # danubian/W-anatolian). But by 'eastern mediterranean' I suppose a more "viril" type with same dolichocephaly but more marked fronto-nasal profile, more receding and less "cerebral" frontal, more accute transitions of cranial lines, something more akin to the 'cappadocian' type on the way to 'indo-afghan' of someones, so more 'west-asian' autosomatically, more linked to South Caucasus Iran??? 'gedrosia' linked? But these types came also sometimes with the Steppic people too, mixed with other types (Steppes I-Eans?)
    THe more northern components of today Baleares people compared to Sardinians could have more than a source, in place and time (read Berun), and even its 'gedrosia' can have come through North and not through South (old question concerning western Europe) .
    @Cato: a number of the new people who appeared in metal ages in South did not leave too much physical imput (the same occurred in Spain and in Southern France,except some very small regions): here I speak of BBs and Corded types; the ones who leaved apparently the most were people from Aegea or Greece area during BA and after (Helladic time): every kind of 'mediter' + some light mixtures of others (Cordeds,BBs..) creating the so called 'ibero-insular' type born in Greece (humour of namings!) and become predominant in South-West.
    Now, I wrote too much and I have to read the paper!
    Not for me, you didn't. :) Thanks for the distinction between gracile med and eastern med. That's helpful. I very much agree with the statement in bolded type.

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    a number of the new people who appeared in metal ages in South did not leave too much physical imput (the same occurred in Spain and in Southern France,except some very small regions): here I speak of BBs and Corded types; the ones who leaved apparently the most were people from Aegea or Greece area during BA and after (Helladic time): every kind of 'mediter' + some light mixtures of others (Cordeds,BBs..) creating the so called 'ibero-insular' type born in Greece (humour of namings!) and become predominant in South-West.
    Yes, i know they were a minority, mediterraneans were always predominant as today. From what i know there wasn't an input from Greece to Sardinia during the bronze age, the new people seems that came from North Italy/ Alpine region (Polada-Rodanian-Straubing-Adlerberg cultural area), in fact according to Haak 2015 sardinians score 16% LN/BA Europeans (Figure S9.23 b)...in the copper age there was also a migration from Spain/Provence (maritime bell beaker) that involved even Maiorca and Minorca

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Yes, i know they were a minority, mediterraneans were always predominant as today. From what i know there wasn't an input from Greece to Sardinia during the bronze age, the new people seems that came from North Italy/ Alpine region (Polada-Rodanian-Straubing-Adlerberg cultural area), in fact according to Haak 2015 sardinians score 16% LN/BA Europeans (Figure S9.23 b)...in the copper age there was also a migration from Spain/Provence (maritime bell beaker) that involved even Maiorca and Minorca
    Sorry, I agree, I was too unprecise.I was speaking about Iberia and southern France, not of Sardinia, concerning the Aegea and surroundings regions influences in West Mediterranea. That said I still think the cultural imput of BBs had been strong at some stage but left little demic traces among today >Sardinians (not O% but little). Concerning North Italy influence, it could explain at least partly the strong Y-I2a1 in Sardinia, but I don't know if the suclades could check this (it's true the Remedello or other culture people DNA is more ancient!)

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    There is a good amount of R1b-U152 (10% circa) in Sardinia, some R1a also. Remedello was copper age and EEF, they were replaced by Polada people (Unetice-like) from the north of the Alps in the early bronze age..they then extended south till Tuscany, Corsica and Sardinia. Polada influences are also found as far as north-eastern Spain

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    OK. I have not the precise SNPs or these Y-R1b-U152 in Sardinia nor their supposed dates of apparition. Some could have been brought back by Northern late BBs (Rhône-Rhine): I don't know their precise ethnic affiliation at these dates: already Celtic or Italic or Ligurian??? Rather proto-Celtic.Ligurian.Italic? Some others could better be well formed Italics, I think. Uneasy to say. Polada people in Catalunya had often looks recalling 'danubian mediters' (~LBK post W-Anatolia?) and I red La Polada was under influence of Unetice, like others, without too much demic imput from the core of Unetice population. Often culturel traits travel without too much demic imput, after first incursions with "flesh and bones" brought by males only);

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    There's been quite a bit of relatively "modern" mainland Italian movement to the island as well, so we'd need much more detailed sub-clade resolution, in my opinion, to sort this out.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    OK. I have not the precise SNPs or these Y-R1b-U152 in Sardinia nor their supposed dates of apparition. Some could have been brought back by Northern late BBs (Rhône-Rhine): I don't know their precise ethnic affiliation at these dates: already Celtic or Italic or Ligurian??? Rather proto-Celtic.Ligurian.Italic? Some others could better be well formed Italics, I think. Uneasy to say. Polada people in Catalunya had often looks recalling 'danubian mediters' (~LBK post W-Anatolia?) and I red La Polada was under influence of Unetice, like others, without too much demic imput from the core of Unetice population. Often culturel traits travel without too much demic imput, after first incursions with "flesh and bones" brought by males only);
    Bernard Sergent in 1995 suggested that Poladans were the first Ligurians, Italic is more recent and perhaps linked with the Terramare (Polada+Danubian influences). In Catalunya Polada material is associated with brachycephalic skulls (Turbón 1981).

    We don't have Polada DNA yet but the archaeological record suggest a considerable immigration from the northern side of the Alps to the Po Valley (Barfield 1994) that replaced Remedello and the local Late Bell Beaker. From the North of Italy gradually Polada expanded in Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany and the two islands, all territories where Bell Beaker was still dominant (except Corsica).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Bernard Sergent in 1995 suggested that Poladans were the first Ligurians, Italic is more recent and perhaps linked with the Terramare (Polada+Danubian influences). In Catalunya Polada material is associated with brachycephalic skulls of the "alpine type".

    We don't have Polada DNA yet but the archaeological record suggest a considerable immigration from the northern side of the Alps to the Po Valley (Barfield 1994) that replaced Remedello and the local Late Bell Beaker. From the North of Italy gradually Polada expanded in Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany and the two islands, all territories were Bell Beaker was still dominant (except Corsica).
    I'm inclined to see it this way as well.

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    @Cato

    What is against to believe in such ancient identification between classic corsicans and those old Sardinian samples is the case that Seneca explains that the Corsi mingled their own language with the languages spoken before there: Greek and Cantabrian (Hispanoceltic language)

    https://books.google.es/books?id=COK...letter&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Cato

    What is against to believe in such ancient identification between classic corsicans and those old Sardinian samples is the case that Seneca explains that the Corsi mingled their own language with the languages spoken before there: Greek and Cantabrian (Hispanoceltic language)

    https://books.google.es/books?id=COK...letter&f=false
    IMO Seneca is not 100% reliable, from an historical and archaeological point of view we can rule out a migration of Ligurians and "Spaniards" in the late I millennium BC, at that time Corsica was under Greek and Etruscan control...it's more likely that they both settled in the island many centuries before the VI century BC (Iberians=Megalithics? Ligurians=Poladans?). see: https://books.google.it/books?id=T15...page&q&f=false

    A quote from R. Zucca-La Corsica romana

    I costumi funerari (ma anche alcune tipologie di monumenti a torre) della Corsica meridionale richiamano strettamente le manifestazioni culturali coeve della Gallura, offrendo nel lungo periodo eneolitico e delle fasi dell'età del bronzo varie possibilità di inquadramento del trasferimento di comunità di Corsi in Sardegna ricordato da Pausania. Alquanto problematica ci appare la documentazione relativa agli insediamenti corsi della età del Ferro. In effetti non è rilevabile alcuna rottura tra il Bronzo Finale e l'età del Ferro: l'occupazione delle «torri» e dei «Castelli» prosegue ininterrottamente insieme allo sviluppo della statuaria megalitica
    https://core.ac.uk/download/files/380/11693051.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    (Iberians=Megalithics? Ligurians=Poladans?)
    I'll try to explain better :)

    In the middle neolithic a type of megalithic grave (megalithic circle or coffre) spread from Catalunya/Southern France to Corsica and north-east Sardinia (Iberians ?). During the metal ages there was no iberian influence in Corsica, in the copper age the terrinien was a local culture, bell beaker is virtually absent except for one fragment in the south, early bronze age was characterized by a material culture similar to that of polada/bonnannaro (first ligurians?), in the middle/late bronze (torrean) there were both nuragic (south) and appennine culture influx, in the early iron age ligurian influences appeared in the north (second ligurian wave?).

    From what i know ancient Balearics were almost 100% spanish bell beakers (there were few neolithic settlements in the archipelago), so obviously there were genetic differences between the populations of the two islands..

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    It's not so good to dismiss the information of Seneca so easily, i provide the comment:

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Of_Co...ion:_To_Helvia

    Seneca comments the changes of peoples in Corsica as an example of population change, he was Hispanoroman and he surely know something about the recently conquered Cantabrians (I think Britons were catched some years before than they), and he was exiled to Corsica some time, so I think that even if it's necessary to take all with caution, the comments must have a valid base: he speaks about wear, head-coverings, shoes and words shared with Cantabrians, but of course I don't think about Cantabrians migrating to the island but better a possible common source for both; as Catabrians used to be Celtics, then the "Celtocorsicans" might come from North Italy, Ligurians could have reached the island much before... or even after them if they were expelled by Gaulish Celts in Old Liguria.

    With that said it is why i'm doubtful that a sample of 1000 BC could be easily labeled as a classic "Corsi", and what is more, the reference of Pausanias about Corsi going to Sardinia is after sedition against their "Lybian" conquerors (Carthaginians), so this migration was quite recent if we follow this author.

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