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Thread: The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Chariots and horses are used because they provide archaeological and historical evidence as well as linguistic. I'm not using horses and chariots as a linguistic argument. And you can maybe use the lexicon to rule out regions that are completely incompatible, but that's about it. Some reconstructions are disputed. Among the stuff that everyone agrees on we can deduce that their environment included forest, grasslands, lake, rivers, and mountains. It was also seasonally cold. That is about it. I'm limiting this to nature. There's a whole host of technological terms that tell us something about the environment as well, but again, it doesn't provide any precision.

    It's in the autosomal DNA. The haplogroups are L2, I think.
    These three men were in the same place, so the survey did not extrapolate too much concerning the whole Armenian ChL. But it seems this makes a link with the Indus Valley, at first sight. The 'steppic' supposed auDNA could have been picked in Central Asia? Or Armenia was at these times a crossing point of a lot of culture, linked to material "industrial" progresses? It seems at this time there begun to be a lot of cultural exchanges and autosomes exchanges too, on every direction concerning elite burials! I keep in mined the few Maykop men studied by metrics were drifted towards old pops of today Turkmenistan southern Caspian area. Archeology seems in accord for exchanges between BMAC and Harappa too.

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    Some archeologists would link Catacombs to early I-Ians, and their mtDNA seems very "russian" or "steppic" at least: an eastern Caspian trail? Their metrics seemed mixed enough. But I'm not sure of the link with previous Maykop. All the way it seems to me South Caspian shores and promontories saw a lot of traffic between Uruk and Kura-Araxes and maybe later! Xhat is not to simplify our "work"...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    OK I understand now the pursue for Armenian_Chalco being a Yamnayan: they must be steppic otherwise what the R1b guy of Kura-Araxes would imply...? that maybe R1b in the steppes came with the CHG/Iran_Calcho?... so the exclusivity of IE R1b would be lost? opening even new doors to wild theories anti-Yamnaya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    OK I understand now the pursue for Armenian_Chalco being a Yamnayan: they must be steppic otherwise what the R1b guy of Kura-Araxes would imply...? that maybe R1b in the steppes came with the CHG/Iran_Calcho?... so the exclusivity of IE R1b would be lost? opening even new doors to wild theories anti-Yamnaya?
    Did they notice that he was.. black?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    These three men were in the same place, so the survey did not extrapolate too much concerning the whole Armenian ChL. But it seems this makes a link with the Indus Valley, at first sight. The 'steppic' supposed auDNA could have been picked in Central Asia? Or Armenia was at these times a crossing point of a lot of culture, linked to material "industrial" progresses? It seems at this time there begun to be a lot of cultural exchanges and autosomes exchanges too, on every direction concerning elite burials! I keep in mined the few Maykop men studied by metrics were drifted towards old pops of today Turkmenistan southern Caspian area. Archeology seems in accord for exchanges between BMAC and Harappa too.
    I agree about Harappa and Iran. In fact I'm betting they're both inhabited by genetically very similar people. I think I said R2 for IRV Y-HGs.

    Yes, ancient Armenia could be explained in other ways than steppe, but I think steppe is the most likely given everything else we know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As we already agreed on, the EHG we see in Calcolthic, EBA and MBA Armenia equals that found in CHG. The map doesn't seem to show any CHG samples. This seems rather to be some sort of CHG admixture than real Steppe. Even David admitted that the "EHG" in Calcolthic and EBA Armenia is not Steppe derived but more archaic. It could be that "Steppe" influence increase from EBA to MBA but that isn't important for the question how the EBA Armenia samples turned out with R1b. Because exactly this sample has a decrease of the EHG component in comparison to Calcolthic Armenia. While Calcolthic Armenia looks like a threeway mix of Iran_Calcolthic, Anatolian_Calcolthic and CHG in which CHG is obviously the strongest part. the same does EBA Armenia, with the difference of having more of the Iran_Calcolthic.
    In the admixture chart in Fig. 1, there is no EHG in ancient Iran, but there's EHG in CHG, which makes sense because it's closest to the EHG homeland. In Fig. 4, which looks like different admixture software, we do see EHG in chl and Neo Iran. We also see EHG in more recent Iranian samples, but MLBA Armenia has the most EHG between CHG, all of Ancient Iran, Chl Armenia, and EBA Armenia. The EHG in Armenia could not have come from CHG alone even if it was a complete replacement, which didn't happen because we also see neo Levant in ancient Armenia. It's only your opinion that this had nothing to do with R1b, and in fact, with what we currently know it is most likely that this had everything to do with the appearance of R1b in Armenia. Anatolian chl actually moves from Neo Anatolian towards Armenia and Iran. This looks to me more like Armenia moving into Anatolia in between neo and chl.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I fail to see how Siberian alleles explain Steppic ancestry, if there is no Siberian alleles found in Yamna at all. This is a special case and chalcolthic Armenia could have gained it via the Iranian_Plateau route.
    I'm not sure that we don't see this signal in Yamnaya, but we likely see it in ancient steppe populations in general. Yes there are other ways to explain this, but they are far less likely given everything we know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    That is indeed the case and logical is it the most active part of the ancient world, of course folks from the less advanced Steppes come down to West Asia for a better living much like immigrants do so today in Europe, and than it was just next door to the Steppes too. However this strong Steppe influence didn't start until the late Bronze Age. As the genetic data proves.
    The genetic data shows the highest steppe earliest in Armenia. For you to say that this could only have been during the late bronze age is your opinion, and not supported by a vast swath of additional data. The rest of this post is nonsense.




    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The problem is that you fail to see, or didn't realize that there is no WHG or EHG influx into West Asia at all and the levels of WHG there are consistent from beggining the Neolithic to Bronze Age, in fact we see a decrease of the WHG like ancestry. EHG also existed in Mesolithic Iran. I don't know if you missed it, the authors come to the conclusion that Iran_Meso is basically Iran_Neo+ EHG. And this EHG came obviously from South_Central Asia.
    There appears to be some conflicting or vague data with regard to EHG in chl and neo Iran. And I believe in data that shows EHG in neo and chl Iran they are making more assumptions in an effort to conform a more complex model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You don't see allot of things, but I fail to see how ancient Armenia is like modern Iran. ancient Armenia is indeed most similar to North Caucasian and Iranic speakers but the reason for that is not Steppic input, the reason is that Armenia was repopulated in Iron Age by a more EEF and almost non EHG shifted and ironically Indo European population from Phrygia.
    No, I mean literally on the admixture chart. Recent Iranians are the same as ancient Armenians. This has nothing to do with Modern Armenia. You're not even making sense now.






    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    you obviously are annoyed because of lack of arguments.
    I think the situation is actually the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I repeat again, after calling Iranic tongues a bastardized variant of Indo_Aryan, don't expect me to take you serious in anyway. For that comment you would be considered the laughing stock of linguistics. You don't even realize how idiotic this statement even was. Both Iranic and Indo_Aryan have gone through their own share of loudshift from obviously one common root. However calling one being the descend of the other, that only shows the degree of your knowledge.
    This was a thought experiment. I was thinking out loud and I already said that I regretted my word choice. The point was that Indo-Iranian must have been closer to Indic that anything else, and I’m not the only one who says this. This also helps to explain the apparent lack of euro genes from Sintashta and Andronovo in ANI. I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. Please compare Old Persian to Sanskrit, then look at the Mitanni Indic words.

    You get so weird about this stuff. If someone were to tell me that Baltic was less bastardized than English compared to PIE I would be interested, not offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You are missing allot I assure you that
    How am I the one missing things when I practically explained all of the evidence that you’re ignoring vs. the small minuscule amount of evidence that you take into consideration?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There is nothing of that kind in the paper, all he sees is Armenia Calolthic being more shifted towards EHG (actually towards CHG since it is in the same direction) in comparison to Iran_Neo wich makes geographically sense and he interprets wildly things into it.
    The first part is right, the second is not.
    Last edited by holderlin; 02-07-16 at 21:05. Reason: adding more data references

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You see and this is the biggest problem with you, you fail to read other peoples comments throughout the thread, therefore miss at least ~50% of the information and come out making bald idiothic statements.

    If you even bothered reading the freakin study for once you would have realized that the authors do not see Sintashta as source of the Iranic languages at all but more like a reflection of an early Indo_Iranian culture that got extinct. They point with the finger to Srubna and related cultures.
    Sintashta certainly spoke at the very least an Indo-Iranian language. They are genetically very similar (nearly identical) to Scythians and there is archaeological continuity all the way to what we know were Scythian remains. The main genetic variations we're dealing with in this context are levels of euro farmer signals, which can easily be explained by invoking earlier steppe cultures like Abashevo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Chariots are basically war wagons driven by horse, nothing more and nothing less. Wagons are known throughout Neolithic as well ancient Bronze Age cultures of Western Asia. Kura Araxes had wagons, so did Maykop, inside of the Kurgans.
    I don't agree that the spoked wheeled chariot is the same thing as a wagon. Yes, wagons were everywhere by this time, but the spoked wheeled horse drawn chariot is something unique. The ritual and mythology of Iron Age IE speaking peoples attests to this as does the middle bronze age historical record. Not to mention the chariot burials in Sintashta itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    And about the Horse statement, most of these statements of Sintashta being the first were made in the far past before other cultures were even studied well and the authors of these books made several errors and put even for their time allot of bold lies into it. I made at least several comments about this but since you seem to be too cool to take them into consideration you will always make halfbaked, half informed bold statements.


    But in the hope that you see it this time.




    And to take any doubts away, that you might have missed it again.

    3300 BCE > 2100 BCE
    I really try to use only the evidence that isn't hotly disputed as you can see in my posts about the reconstructed language.

    Sintashta is the first evidence of spoked wheeld horse drawn chariots. This is a fact. For the origin of horse domestication we go to the Pontic steppe. Until we get new evidence, this isn't disputed in circles of experts.
    Last edited by holderlin; 06-07-16 at 19:07. Reason: mixed up dating of steppe cultures

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    @Alan

    I’m looking at the PCA and admixture chart in Figure 1. In the PCA chart I’m looking at ancient Iran, then I’m looking at ancient Armenia. Ancient Armenia looked to me like Ancient Iranian peoples who had mixed with Euro-steppe. I understand that this may not be the case, but remember I’m trying to reconcile this with all of the other evidence that I know exists, in the real world. We also see Chalcolithic Anatolia move towards Armenia/Iran, which appears to be resulting from movements from Armenia. So I’m seeing proto-Anatolian moving to its seat in Anatolian whence it pops up in the historic record in around 2000BC on the nose. Then I see that there are favorable D stat comparisons to younger steppe populations with the accompanying euro along with Siberian teeth and hair characteristics alleles or allele frequencies.

    We then see an R1b. Where do we find a ton of very ancient R1b? The steppe and Europe.

    So I’m saying that the most likely explanation is steppe with a proto-Anatolian language, and I think even you would have to agree, but you don’t, which I think is strange. Anatolian also appears to have evolved alongside a Caucasian language. It just so happens that in the Armenian region, and where IE’s may have passed through in the Caucuses, sits the earliest attested Caucasian languages.

    This makes perfect sense to me, and I'm sure to others. I then ask myself how would this change the Yamnaya=PIE model? The most parsimonious is to move PIE back and create a differentiation scheme that’s also consistent.

    At the very least you should understand and accept my reasoning because these are all facts that I’m merely conforming a model to. And I believe this model makes the most sense.
    Last edited by holderlin; 02-07-16 at 20:47. Reason: pasting in charts.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    We then see an R1b. Where do we find a ton of very ancient R1b? The steppe and Europe.
    However, one still has to account for R-M343* in Kurdish and Iranian groups which cannot have come from the Eneolithic Ponto-Caspian. This has a significant implications concerning the vector of R1b's dispersal, linguistic matters aside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    However, one still has to account for R-M343* in Kurdish and Iranian groups which cannot have come from the Eneolithic Ponto-Caspian. This has a significant implications concerning the vector of R1b's dispersal, linguistic matters aside.
    Yes, I know. It's an old subclade. Although we still have the fact that the oldest R1b samples are being found on the steppe and in Europe and we also have an R* in ancient Siberia. So the current data is still hinting at the steppe or europe, bronze age expansions aside.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think as Y-R1 was surely born in Central Asia or not too far, some specific subclades reach Iran and Near-East-South Caucasus through the South Caspian Sea; some gave birth to the famous V88 and yet the precise place of this has to be proved what does not disprove its passage through Near East, others stayed South the Caucasus. But these above mentioned clades are not the ancestors of supposed "steppic" L23 or Z2103 or L51. Just a feeling, not proved at this stage.
    It seems the bulk of these last three subclades lived their destiny without too numerous others Y-great haplos among them (R1a, J2 by instance) the R1b-M415 alias L278 of Kura-Araxes Bronze is too poorly defined or of a too "old nature" to tell us too much. Kura-Araxes seems a synthetic culture envolving Uruk people, Caucasians "autochtones" and perhaps some eastern influence of Eastern Caspian, so we are still in balance here.
    Concerning EHG genes among CHG, my feeling is that it could be the result of ancient shared ancestral DNA rather than a typical admixture. All the way we see that as time passed the pops drifted and "specialized" or "localized" their auDNA and genuine Iran Neol would have had very little EHG DNA stayed in them, so the new recent EHG DNA has to be come from somewhere else, for I think. But I cannot exclude an other geographical origine than the Pontic Steppes even if it has my preference to date.

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    Holderin I have no dersire or time to discuss this any further. Just my adivce don't look just at the admixture charts, read the text and even some of the lazaridis tweets. In the text they say Iran_Meso is basically Iran_Neo + something EHG like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Holderin I have no dersire or time to discuss this any further. Just my adivce don't look just at the admixture charts, read the text and even some of the lazaridis tweets. In the text they say Iran_Meso is basically Iran_Neo + something EHG like.
    Yes, but Mesoi Iran is not Neol Iran! Either the last ones are not the exact descendants of the former, or they washed their genome after generations (it's a common phenomenon since Palleolithic: specialization and drift); it seems Iran Chalcol was poor in EHG too.. THese Armenian Chalco guys had also some EEFlike or Levant-Anatolianslike DNA, which added to their rather southeastern haplos Y-L1a, show a very puzzling sketche of the elites of the time! AT first sight it doesn't point to a pure Iran pop introgression. But at the difference than others I don't conclude too quickly here what make a boring forumer of mylself: eastern males could have mixed with females come from other horizons in a period of heavy changes and material progresses which could have acted as crossings promotors.
    I know, we are looking for simple enough shcemes and realtiy is showing us very more complicated things concerning some individuals who are not by force the most representative of the whole of the pops in cause at those times. And the clannic system of the male elites of those times make my own bets very unsure: my intuitive "pure" Y-R1b-preL23 come only through North Caspian could be parlty an error because some clans (L23>>L51) could have reached the Pontic region through Caucasus as well preserved males clans (# Z2103 ones), spite the melting-pot region they would have crossed!
    So, let's wait for even more DNA (famous song).

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Yes, I know. It's an old subclade. Although we still have the fact that the oldest R1b samples are being found on the steppe and in Europe and we also have an R* in ancient Siberia. So the current data is still hinting at the steppe or europe, bronze age expansions aside.
    Once again no we do not have the oldest subclades in the Steppes. Please stop giving misinformations.

    The oldest up to date sampled R1a and R1bs are in the Steppes but they are not the oldest subclades means they are all upstream to basal R1a l62 and R1b m343. Which have been found among Kurds and on the Iranian Plateau. Those therefore can not be explained via Steppes, because EVEN if they were found in Eneolithic Samara they were not part of the Indo European expansion from the Steppes.

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    Coming back to Basal Eurasians, and their original Y-DNA haplogroups:

    What do you think about this model (with haplogroup CT splitting into DE and CF before leaving Africa, and then D and E migrating from Africa to Arabia - becoming "Basal Eurasians" later on - while C and F migrating to the Levant, admixing with Neanderthals):

    Direct link to map


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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    the oldest R1b samples are being found on the steppe and in Europe and we also have an R* in ancient Siberia. So the current data is still hinting at the steppe or europe, bronze age expansions aside.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Once again no we do not have the oldest subclades in the Steppes. Please stop giving misinformations.
    This is what I'm talking about. You're not reading what I wrote. You're just making stuff up. The oldest R1b samples have in fact been found on the steppe and in Europe.

    I'm aware of the modern distributions of R1b and R1a subclades.

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    The oldest sample of R1b known so far is from North Italy (Villabruna): 14,180 - 13,780 years old.

    The oldest sample of R1a known so far is from Karelia (Red Deer Island): 8,800 - 7,950 years old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Coming back to Basal Eurasians, and their original Y-DNA haplogroups:

    What do you think about this model (with haplogroup CT splitting into DE and CF before leaving Africa, and then D and E migrating from Africa to Arabia - becoming "Basal Eurasians" later on - while C and F migrating to the Levant, admixing with Neanderthals):

    Direct link to map

    the Nubyan Complex existed in southern Arabia > 106 ka
    these were the ancestors of the modern Eurasians
    that was before the BT TMRCA
    so this was haplo BT
    and haplo B and E are both backmigrations to Africa
    the Neanderthal admixture happened 60-55 ka
    that was after the DE and CF splits, so not necesarily all 4 clades got Neanderthal admixture
    actually 4.5 Mota E in Ethiopia didn't have Neanderthal admix

    the humans that lived in the Levant 110-90 ka did admix with Neanderthals, but went extinct
    it is their admixed DNA that was found in the Altaï Neanderthals

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    the humans that lived in the Levant 110-90 ka did admix with Neanderthals, but went extinct
    it is their admixed DNA that was found in the Altaï Neanderthals
    Are you sure that the Nubyan Complex did not end up like this as well ???

    the Nubyan Complex existed in southern Arabia > 106 ka
    these were the ancestors of the modern Eurasians
    See above.

    IMO they weren't ancestors of modern Eurasians, but a "failed" population, which got extinct. They were the ones who got slaughtered by Neanderthals or / and by the Toba Eruption 74,000 years ago, alongside with those from the Levant.

    Some of them made it to Australia, and remnants of their mtDNA were found near Kow Swamp and Lake Mungo.

    It was mtDNA which was not descended from "mitochondrial Eve", but diverged shortly before Eve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The oldest sample of R1b known so far is from North Italy (Villabruna): 14,180 - 13,780 years old.

    The oldest sample of R1a known so far is from Karelia (Red Deer Island): 8,800 - 7,950 years old.
    Yes, thank you.

    Not to mention all of the Bronze age R1b/a in Europe and the R1b/a on the steppe spanning from mesolithic to bronze age.

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    Razib Khan has a piece up on the paper. It starts off with some very fulsome praise for Iosif Lazaridis.
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-great-hu...omment-1480355

    "He should frame it; it's quite some accolade. :)

    "One can appreciate a work of art on two levels....on some level we acknowledge physical beauty when we see it, before we even think it.*

    Another level of appreciation is narrower, and that is one where you have awareness of the ingenuity of technique, the deep virtuosity and fluency of execution. This aspect of understanding aesthetics is naturally delimited to those with equivalent skills, or whose skills aspire toward the plane of the masters...Reading Iosif Lazaridis’ The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers you can evaluate on both levels. The results are broadly accessible, but the depth of the analysis is clear to anyone who has ever attempted something analogous. These papers coming out of David Reich’s lab have a certain template, but they are definitely not paint-by-numbers. For those who are interested in technical details, you have to read the supplements."

    I don't aspire to that plane, but I think I know enough to appreciate it. :)

    As to the substance:
    "
    Ancient DNA has revealed that genetic variation in the human past has been characterized by very strong discontinuities, both over time and space."

    "It turns out that a majority of the ancestry of modern Europeans is likely exogenous to the continent over the last ~10,000 years. "

    "The evidence which is coming back clearly is that pre-modern populations exhibited a great deal of genetic differentiation over even small distances, and, that differentiation could persist for thousands of years."

    "Basically, all West Eurasian populations today can be modeled to a first approximation as a mixture of four ancestral groups which flourished on the order of ~10,000 years ago."

    I think most people would agree with that. Some of his other claims I could quibble with, such as:

    "Between group proportions of variation on the order of 10% of the total variance, what you see between Europeans and Han Chinese, were not atypical for nearby peoples in the past."

    As someone pointed out in the comments, the fst between Europeans and Chinese is smaller than that.

    "These two groups seem to have stumbled upon agriculture very near to each other at similar times.
    Where they independent events? I suspect that they weren’t. I’m not implying here cultural diffusion. There is evidence of independent domestication of landraces in the Zagros. Rather, these two populations were part of a broader network of trade connections within a similar ecological landscape. It was not coincidental that both stumbled upon agriculture. Likely there was diffusion between the two of similar cultural precursors to agriculture. Their location in such proximity and emergence onto the world scene can not be coincidence, though the details are to be worked out."

    There had to have been cultural diffusion, and after the very early Neolithic some demic diffusion too, or how did the farmers who left for Europe get the full complement of domesticated animals that are the hallmark of the "other" Neolithic. How did Anatolian Neolithic get its Levantine Neolithic, and vice versa. How, also, can the EN be modeled with either some CHG or some Iran Neolithic, at least the Neolithic that wound up in Europe, if not Cardial?

    I also don't think they "stumbled" onto it. They were in the right place at the right time, and human ingenuity and perseverance did the rest.

    Khan also reiterates once more that all these migrations must have included inter-group conflict. Perhaps, but maybe not always or not to the same extent in each one.


    I'm also not sure if he means to say all of yDna Haplo "E" originated in West Eurasia, or just a big chunk of the downstream clades. the ones present in Egypt, the Horn, North Africa, etc. Certainly, it has implications for discussions of Afro-Asiatic.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    he names 4 cornerstone populations as the paper does, but he replaces the Levantine neolithic by EEF, which acording to the paper is a mixture of Levant N, Iran N and some WHG
    the identity of the Anatolian/European farmer remains a mystery to me, it doesn't match Levant N nor Iran N
    also, what strikes me : over 60 % of Anatolian/European farmer were G2a2 while none of them have been found in the whole study

    I find this interesting : The genetic differentiation began once the expansion phase ceased, and groups began to struggle for existence at the Malthusian limit.

    once farmers settle, they stop moving and they become isolated
    is this why European farmers were so quickly and easily replaced by the mobile corded ware people?

    my opinion on haplo E and Afro-Asiatic is here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...to-Afroasiatic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Razib Khan has a piece up on the paper. It starts off with some very fulsome praise for Iosif Lazaridis.
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-great-hu...omment-1480355

    "He should frame it; it's quite some accolade. :)

    "One can appreciate a work of art on two levels....on some level we acknowledge physical beauty when we see it, before we even think it.*

    Another level of appreciation is narrower, and that is one where you have awareness of the ingenuity of technique, the deep virtuosity and fluency of execution. This aspect of understanding aesthetics is naturally delimited to those with equivalent skills, or whose skills aspire toward the plane of the masters...Reading Iosif Lazaridis’ The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers you can evaluate on both levels. The results are broadly accessible, but the depth of the analysis is clear to anyone who has ever attempted something analogous. These papers coming out of David Reich’s lab have a certain template, but they are definitely not paint-by-numbers. For those who are interested in technical details, you have to read the supplements."

    I don't aspire to that plane, but I think I know enough to appreciate it. :)

    As to the substance:
    "
    Ancient DNA has revealed that genetic variation in the human past has been characterized by very strong discontinuities, both over time and space."

    "It turns out that a majority of the ancestry of modern Europeans is likely exogenous to the continent over the last ~10,000 years. "

    "The evidence which is coming back clearly is that pre-modern populations exhibited a great deal of genetic differentiation over even small distances, and, that differentiation could persist for thousands of years."

    "Basically, all West Eurasian populations today can be modeled to a first approximation as a mixture of four ancestral groups which flourished on the order of ~10,000 years ago."

    I think most people would agree with that. Some of his other claims I could quibble with, such as:

    "Between group proportions of variation on the order of 10% of the total variance, what you see between Europeans and Han Chinese, were not atypical for nearby peoples in the past."

    As someone pointed out in the comments, the fst between Europeans and Chinese is smaller than that.

    "These two groups seem to have stumbled upon agriculture very near to each other at similar times.
    Where they independent events? I suspect that they weren’t. I’m not implying here cultural diffusion. There is evidence of independent domestication of landraces in the Zagros. Rather, these two populations were part of a broader network of trade connections within a similar ecological landscape. It was not coincidental that both stumbled upon agriculture. Likely there was diffusion between the two of similar cultural precursors to agriculture. Their location in such proximity and emergence onto the world scene can not be coincidence, though the details are to be worked out."

    There had to have been cultural diffusion, and after the very early Neolithic some demic diffusion too, or how did the farmers who left for Europe get the full complement of domesticated animals that are the hallmark of the "other" Neolithic. How did Anatolian Neolithic get its Levantine Neolithic, and vice versa. How, also, can the EN be modeled with either some CHG or some Iran Neolithic, at least the Neolithic that wound up in Europe, if not Cardial?

    I also don't think they "stumbled" onto it. They were in the right place at the right time, and human ingenuity and perseverance did the rest.

    Khan also reiterates once more that all these migrations must have included inter-group conflict. Perhaps, but maybe not always or not to the same extent in each one.


    I'm also not sure if he means to say all of yDna Haplo "E" originated in West Eurasia, or just a big chunk of the downstream clades. the ones present in Egypt, the Horn, North Africa, etc. Certainly, it has implications for discussions of Afro-Asiatic.
    Network of trade is a key point and I say this implies also to the Indo EUropeans. What we call the PIE were probably a network of cultures in close contact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    he names 4 cornerstone populations as the paper does, but he replaces the Levantine neolithic by EEF, which acording to the paper is a mixture of Levant N, Iran N and some WHGant N nor Iran N
    also, what strikes me : over 60 % of Anatolian/European farmer were G2a2 while none
    the identity of the Anatolian/European farmer remains a mystery to me, it doesn't match Lev of them have been found in the whole study

    I find this interesting : The genetic differentiation began once the expansion phase ceased, and groups began to struggle for existence at the Malthusian limit.

    once farmers settle, they stop moving and they become isolated
    is this why European farmers were so quickly and easily replaced by the mobile corded ware people?

    my opinion on haplo E and Afro-Asiatic is here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...to-Afroasiatic
    Indeed you can't model, West Eurasia just based on these four cornerstones. Levant_N themselves seem to be basically Natufian + some WHG like and Iran_Neo like admixture.

    You need to see Anatolian_Neo as it's own cornerstone, because it is decisive to determine the farmer ancestry in Europeans. otherwise you will get flawed results.

    We are dealng here with at least three, if not four with CHG, cornerstones in ancient West Asia. Anatolian_Neo, Iran_Neo(+CHG) and Levant_Neo.
    Last edited by Alan; 07-07-16 at 14:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Indeed you can't model, West Eurasia just based on these four cornerstones. Levant_N themselves seem to be basically Natufian + some WHG like and Iran_Neo like admixture.

    You need to see Anatolian_Neo as it's own cornerstone, because it is decisive to determine the farmer ancestry in Europeans. otherwise you will get flawed results.

    We are dealng here with at least three cornerstones in ancient West Asia. Anatolian_Neo, Iran_Neo(+CHG) and Levant_Neo.
    exactly, that is my perception too

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