Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
According to this Lazaridis paper Mal'ta sample itself is ~28% Iran_meso/neo and 10% CHG like (or derived from it) according to the graph with the pca plot in the study, you can look it up.Genetiker wrote that Afontova Gora 2 who lived in Siberia 17,000 years ago was derived for SLC24A5 white skin mutation:
"(...) Mal’ta 1 had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1426654, but Afontova Gora 2, an Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherer who lived 17,000 years ago in Siberia, had two copies of the derived allele. This SNP is located in the gene SLC24A5, and its derived allele is one of the two major Caucasoid depigmentation mutations. The other major Caucasoid depigmentation mutation is the derived allele of rs16891982, in the gene SLC45A2. (...)"
So it seems that Caucasoid skin-lightening alleles originated from ANE. Was ANE admixture present in Neolithic Near East?
Because EHG definitely had ANE admixture. And SHG also had it (they were part-EHG). IIRC, CHG also had some ANE.
Yes and when they moved North and especially later when the adopted a Vitamin D poor Neolithic_Diet, the became fairer. The combination of Genes+enviroment+diet is the key.
Angela said:EHG as something like a combination of WHG
Exactly. That's what the science we have so far would suggest.
Also, of course, there's the fact that the Key paper didn't at all discuss SLC24A5, the oldest example of which can be found in the CHG hunter-gatherer from around the Caucasus if I remember correctly, at least in terms of an academic analysis.
Angela said:did not exist in UP Europeans or the WHG.
Angela said:it takes the combination of these snps to produce it, not just one or two.
Do we know exactly what farmers ate? Surely corns but not only. It seems they hunted too and so had meat. Surely less than Hgs but those ones ate berries and not-meat food too? And farmers drunk milk, I think. Perhaps could one of us precise this? So selection, but surely not so simply based.
Where Anatolian disagrees with late PIE reconstruction it agrees with Indo-Uralic one, I.e. Tu (you, late PIE) vs Ti (Anatolian, Proto-Uralic and Indo-Uralic). Klokhorst or similar surname had article on this.Has anyone given any thought to the description of EHG as something like a combination of WHG plus something on the Onge-Han scale? We know from other analyses that EHG has an "eastern" affinity. What exactly does that say about ANE?
Sorry, I haven't got the exact quote to hand.
As to the origin of PIE, I think the main development and spread was from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. I'm just not sure about proto-PIE. If Anatolian developed south of the Caucasus, or even in the Caucasus itself, then technically PIE did not originate on the Pontic-Caspian lsteppe. I'm not sure about that, however.
All the studies about the location where PIE would first have developed, i.e. in terms of the words for flora and fauna, could that kind of locale also be found east of the Caspian or even near modern day Armenia or the Iranian plateau?
Also, when talking about influences by other languages, is the influence of the Uralic languages the same in Anatolian as it is in other IE languages? Also, where exactly were the Uralic languages located at this time. How far south did they extend?
Where Anatolian disagrees with late PIE reconstruction it agrees with Indo-Uralic one, I.e. Tu (you, late PIE) vs Ti (Anatolian, Proto-Uralic and Indo-Uralic). Klokhorst or similar surname had article on this.
As to Uralic themselves, they were not there as Uralic back then. There were different Indo-Uralic dialects, one of which got mixed with North Caucasian and other way later developed into Proto-Uralic.
Is not clear how far South they were then, but judged by PIE, they knew domesticated animals, did not know agriculture, knew (some) metals (Gold, Silver and metal), did not know metallurgy.
We need Armenian N!Alan;482392]The EHG admixture in Copper Age Iran equals that found in mesolithic CHG.
Well, not if we go by this chart, but the level of EHG in Armenia Copper Age is pretty close to that in CHG.*
Well, it decreases in the Early Bronze Age, but it increases to the highest levels in the Middle/Late Bronze Age, so by then, whatever was the case in previous eras, there might have been movement from north of the Caucasus.
I agree that it's complicated, and I don't see this as a simple matter of steppe intrusion. Part of the difficulty in interpreting what we see is that we don't have an Armenian Neolithic sample. The other problem, as Lazaridis pointed out in his post, is that we don't know the geographical range of these ancient people.
Let's assume, for the moment, that CHG resulted from the admixture of a population similar to the Iranian Neolithic who moved slightly north and encountered EHG. Did they encounter EHG already south of the Caucasus? Or were the EHC only north of the Caucasus, but the resulting admixed population straddled the entire Caucasus range. These are things we don't yet know and may perhaps never know.
By the Armenian Chalcolithic we actually see, as you say and as I pointed out upthread, that EHG has decreased at the expense of an intrusion of Levant Neolithic and WHG. Is that actually just a breakdown of the Anatolian Neolithic that arrived from the west? Does that make more sense than a migration of purely Levant Neolithic people all the way north?
Then in the Armenia Early Bronze the EHG declines yet again, perhaps by admixture by a population heavier in Iranian Neolithic?
Only in the Armenia Late Bronze Age do we see the EHG levels rise back to the levels of the Iran Chalcolithic. That's the strongest case for steppe intrusion, in my opinion.
OK for a possible Anatolian contribution concerning WHG+LevtN (every new simulation sends new reference population, funny indeed!) intoArmenia: why not?
Concerning comparions metals age Armenia with CHG, as Armenia shows levels of WHG and LevtN, if Armenia was issued from old CHG, this new admixture would reduce the EHG and IranN (=CHG) in itself. Or if Armenia was previously a mix of WHG and LevtN (=Anatolia)+ the admixture with CHGs from N-Caucasus would also produce less EHG in itself tha in the donor CHG pop. So I think and CHG and Armenia had high levels of IranN, but Armenia received new EHG non-Caucasus, so surely Steppic. Some papers all the way seem showing metals ages Armenia had affinities with Yamnaya, not only 'westasian'; Genetiker whatever the worth of his work, "found" some East-Asia (rather 'amerind' or 'siberian') in BA Armenians what does not seem come through iran at these dates but was found in almost every supposed Steppic influenced pops. On a plotting of Davidsky BA Armenians are shifted towards Lezgins, and Tadjiks, closer to these last ones than Georgians or Adygei, far from the today Armenians and even Iranians. I 'm not sure all that would be without any signification at all? and EHG of some weight in CSW Asia at these dates? I don't buy before more infos.
We could say, it's true, that the supposed "steppic" admixture would not prove a cultural influence of North Caucasus upon South, but rather an osmosis after colonization of North by South Caucasus? Who knows? All the way I discard a colonization by Tadjiks from East at those times, for good sense and archeological reasons.
Sorry, I haven't got the exact quote to hand.
As to the origin of PIE, I think the main development and spread was from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. I'm just not sure about proto-PIE. If Anatolian developed south of the Caucasus, or even in the Caucasus itself, then technically PIE did not originate on the Pontic-Caspian lsteppe. I'm not sure about that, however.
All the studies about the location where PIE would first have developed, i.e. in terms of the words for flora and fauna, could that kind of locale also be found east of the Caspian or even near modern day Armenia or the Iranian plateau?
Also, when talking about influences by other languages, is the influence of the Uralic languages the same in Anatolian as it is in other IE languages? Also, where exactly were the Uralic languages located at this time. How far south did they extend?
This thread has been viewed 219380 times.