The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers
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Alan
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We had some but can't find it anymore. It was basically ~60% Caucasus, ~30% Gedrosia.
Alan
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I think the author has a mistake in his thinking or the author missed this statement of the Lazaridis paper, namely that Sub Saharan Africans do not share more with Natufians as they do with any of the other Eurasian groups, which kinda rejects the Idea that Natufians were more African shifted.
Natufians ironically seem closer/share more to WHG based on fst distances as Levant_neo, Iran_Neo or CHG does. Which kinda means that Natufians were a mix of Basal Eurasian and a H&G group that was ancestral to WHG.
Natufians do not share drift with North and East Africans. North and East Africans share drift with Natufians. Yes on PCA Natufians are "halfway inbetween" Africans and CHG, so are Saudis and so is also Anatolian_Neo but it doesn't work that way, because the non Basal Eurasian ancestry of Natufians is more WHG akine.
Alan
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I think it was somewhere in Israel/Palestine or Syria.
Presumably desert or semidesert areas in Israel.
No, Iran_CHL does not have any EHG. CHG which is mesolithic does however have, Armenian EBA level, "EHG like" admixture. Armenian EBA looks pretty much like Armenian CHL + Iran CHL. Armenian Calcolthic has significantly higher frequency of "EHG " like ancestry (note they do not differentiate EHG-WHG in the graph it seems) than Armenian EBA. So whatever happened in the Armenian EBA it actually decreased the "EHG" admixture.
Yes I see this, but we have a lot of EBA and MBA samples that shift towards steppe from EBA->MBA. Just means there was even more steppe earlier that we would have expected, and the Late Bronze Age shown in the plot below is the furthest shifted towards the steppe of all ancient Armenian samples. I don't think this is shown in the chart from the paper we're discussing. I did find one such chart but it's hard to read.
The light pigment is no surprise to me in Chalc Armenia. This also comes with SIBERIAN alleles. Explain that one.
Chalcolithic Armenia is actually starting to look to me like the earliest region of strong steppe influence in West Asia. The earliest and largest influx of WHG/EHG into West Asia is very important for the PIE problem. If you don’t see this, then you don’t understand the problem. Look at Modern Iran, it’s the same as ancient Armenia, and we know exactly how modern Iran came to be populated.
Suprise
And why do you think R2 at this point makes more sense? I doubt anyone would have thought of R2 if not a dubious Blogger brought this theory up.
Yeah. It's R2. Stop saying "dubious" it's annoying.
I'm sorry but you're retarded. Why would you say such a thing when you don't know what you're talking about.
Assuming we're going to completely forget about the fact that the Avestas themselves are localized geographically in Central Asia/North Eastern Iran. Compare Avestan to Sanskrit. Then compare both of these to West and East Iranian languages. What I say is absolutely correct. It's not a bad thing. Avestan is much, much closer to Indic than it is to the earliest attested West and East Iranian languages. This tells us that Indo-Iranian was likely none other than an ancient Indo-Aryan/Indic. A very base archaic Indic in the Mitanni is the earliest attested Indo-Iranian language. Why would this piss you off? The confidence of your repudiation would actually imply the reverse of what you insist about me, being that you are the one who is truly in a fantasy. And I really don’t know why you ignore all of this evidence. IE is a language and culture, not a haplogroup. If you ignore the language and the culture then you've lost sight of what you're looking for in the first place.
We have very early written history in Asia. This is something we don’t have in Europe, so actually IE’s intrusive nature to Asia is in many ways even more certain than that in Europe. I know you don’t like to listen to those things, but they’re there none the less. Do you really think that Iranian pre-dated Elam? Do you realize how absurd and retarded this would sound to a historian or archaeologist? Iranian isn’t even attested until like the 8th century BC in Assyrian records. A semitic language mind you. Not Sumerian. Assyrians were expanding into the Zagros and encountered them. Do you really think that Iranian speakers had anything to do with Sumer? That they were involved in the Uruk expansions? Or even less that they were the expanding Sumerians? These notions are truly ridiculous.
The entire region is plastered with non-IE since pre-history. Urartian, Semetic, Elamite, Hattic, Hurrian, Sumerian blah blah blah. The Indoeuropeans’ intrusive nature to the region is crystal clear in every decipherable document that we have from the period. They attest to Hittite replacing Hattic (and Assyrian), Armenian absorbs the populations and languages of IE Luwains and Urartians, Iranian expands over the earlier territory of Elam, and now there’s no doubt that Indic replaced a vast expanse of what was likely Dravidian speaking people. The problem is that your evidence tends to be very singular, inadequate to explain all the historical outcomes, and sometimes wrong all together. If anyone has their head in the sand it’s surely you. How can you not see that Iranian is clearly what became of steppe Indo-Iranian that did not move into India? This mythical R1b that you’re looking for will not be enough to change all of these conclusions nor the evidence that leads us to them. And guess what? THE GENETICS ARE STRONGLY IN SUPPORT OF THIS MODEL AS WELL. This isn’t a white supremacists agenda. Most of the Asian origin theories have been abandoned or defeated so many times that they’re not seriously considered anymore. Do you think this is all nationalism? Because if you really do then you’re surely the only nationalist in the room.
I think it's obvious that AG2 and AG3 are mixtures of Villabruna and MA-1. Maybe I'm missing something.
I think Anatolian/Hittite in Maykop makes some sense. But I’m thinking that it may have been in Armenia even earlier. And I’m also thinking that Yamnaya may not have been PIE and was actually beginning to speak what resembled a proto-Indo Iranian that strongly resembled Indic, with Corded Ware being a proto-Balto-Slavic differentiation from this. I’m still trying to deconstruct all my preconceptions though and so I haven’t yet convinced myself that this makes sense. We know that proto-Celto-Italic and Tocharian differentiated early as well, which I think we may already be seeing in very early Western Steppe Cultures like Stredny Stog. These people infiltrated Europe causing the Bell Beaker phenomenon. So I’m shifting everything back a bit which will make some people freak out, but I’m going on the evidence for a Neolithic on the Volga by 6000BC. This would put actual PIE in Samara/Dneiper Donets growing out of a Mesolithic steppe language. Remember there is no PIE root for sea, which is pretty huge if you ask me. All of this is consistent linguistically and is supported by archaeology and genetics.
It would go something like this: Anatolian leaves before the Centum-Satem split. Centum-Satem splitting begins to occur. Celto-Italic and Tocharian differentiate/depart as Centum, shortly after Proto-Hellenic does the same, but doesn’t move too far away to the West. Hellenic continuous to churn in the balkans leading Phyrgian, Armenian, Illyrian(?), and Greek, which eventually populate Anatolia and the Aegean.
Remaining on the steppe/forest zone is a Satem IE that is differentiating into Proto-Balto-Slavic in the N/NW and a very Indic(Indo-Aryan) like Satem in the South and East. The period just before and likely during significant differentiation was Yamnaya and it was more Indic than Baltic. IE was constantly expanding at this time so Indic (genetically yamnaya) is moving South and East steadily eventually ending up in India and founding the Kingdom of Mitanni along the way. Then we see emergence of Srubna, Poltvka, Sintasha, and Andronovo, which are already starting to sound Iranian. The earlier the steppe culture the more Indic like Indo-Iranian they speak. The very Indic like Indo-Iranian remains on the steppe and Iranian plateau(which it passed through) and differentiates into the different Iranian languages. A striking piece of evidence of this latter structure of Satem IE is that Lithuanian retains roughly the same general forms as does Sanskrit. And actually comparisons between Latin, Sanskrit, Tocharian, and Lithuanian should convince one of this structure after Hittite departed, but before others did. Remember Indo-Aryan is already attested by the 2nd millenium B.C. as a horse breeding ruling elite in the Mitanni, and horses are in the SE Caspian by the latest 3000BC.
Someone find something not awesome about this, or unoriginal.
Remaining on the steppe/forest zone is a Satem IE that is differentiating into Proto-Balto-Slavic in the N/NW and a very Indic(Indo-Aryan) like Satem in the South and East. The period just before and likely during significant differentiation was Yamnaya and it was more Indic than Baltic. IE was constantly expanding at this time so Indic (genetically yamnaya) is moving South and East steadily eventually ending up in India and founding the Kingdom of Mitanni along the way. Then we see emergence of Srubna, Poltvka, Sintasha, and Andronovo, which are already starting to sound Iranian. The earlier the steppe culture the more Indic like Indo-Iranian they speak. The very Indic like Indo-Iranian remains on the steppe and Iranian plateau(which it passed through) and differentiates into the different Iranian languages. A striking piece of evidence of this latter structure of Satem IE is that Lithuanian retains roughly the same general forms as does Sanskrit. And actually comparisons between Latin, Sanskrit, Tocharian, and Lithuanian should convince one of this structure after Hittite departed, but before others did. Remember Indo-Aryan is already attested by the 2nd millenium B.C. as a horse breeding ruling elite in the Mitanni, and horses are in the SE Caspian by the latest 3000BC.
Someone find something not awesome about this, or unoriginal.
And I'm sorry everyone, but this had everything to do with horses. In all of the earliest attested IE languages we have mythical horse driven chariot riders. Not only that, but we have the earliest evidence for chariots in Iranian Sintashta, then by the Hittites which are also historically attested. If you don't buy horses, than at least accept chariots, which will lead you to the same conclusion. And of course we have the earliest evidence of domestication of horses for transport in Samara, and then wherever we have known IE peoples we also have horses. Horse=IE. This is a fact. Egyptians didn't have horses and chariots until New Kingdom, which coincides with Mitanni, and GUESS WHAT? There are Egyptian records of correspondence with the Mitanni where the former is asking the latter for horses and chariots. The Egyptians then have horses and chariots when they battle the Hittites. This is fascinating evidence and I don't understand why one would ignore it.
berun
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Can you give data/facts for that? I'm not aware of such case.
By the way in East-Anatolia and Caucasus a good proposal for an IE introgression is the Trialeti Culture with kurgans and chariots, and that just some time before we have Hittites in Central Anatolia.
Athiudisc
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*Mori? Whence Latin "mare," Gaelic "muir," English "mere," Russian "more," etc.
Greying Wanderer
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@holderlin
Artisans from the Kargaly copper field looking for sources of copper elsewhere imo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargaly
I used to think it was the other way round - south Caucasus to steppe - but the DNA seems to say no.
I'd say the first wave was connected to metallurgy, limited in numbers but ranging from Ireland to China but I'd agree the main IE event was all about horses.
(reason: kilts)
Artisans from the Kargaly copper field looking for sources of copper elsewhere imo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargaly
I used to think it was the other way round - south Caucasus to steppe - but the DNA seems to say no.
I'd say the first wave was connected to metallurgy, limited in numbers but ranging from Ireland to China but I'd agree the main IE event was all about horses.
(reason: kilts)
It doesn'tmean sea. It's seems to actually mean like "marsh" or "swampland", or "Lake" rather than large body of open water, and it's only in European IE, not Indo-Iranian.
This is related to the Germanic substratum, where we find all these non-IE seafaring words that seem to be borrowed into IE. And a bunch of pig farming words as well I believe.
This is supportive of Samara PIE homeland, if you give it any weight. Like I say, it's the language that brought us here in the first place. If you ignore that entirely then you're doing something else, less related to the IE question.
I know this is genetics discussion, but I'm applying that as well. If people are going to discuss a LANGUAGE GROUP then expect some language posts. Especially considering outlandish theories.
I can only theorize that the subclades associated with the Bell Beakers will be found in these early Western Steppe cultures.
Interesting, I always believed the earliest copper in the West was usually from the Balkans, and I'm pretty sure the spectral data from Samara and Khvalynsk show this.
Perhaps yes on metal before horses, but I don't think so. We see cheek pieces, horse headed scepters, horse figuring, and of course horse remains when the steppe barely had any copper. Horse sacrifices are known in Samara as well I believe.
And I must qualify my IE=Horses claim. Before a certain point in time we can say that IE will always be associated with loads of evidence for horse domestication for transport.
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Angela
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RK has posted some nMonte results on anthrogenica. They're interesting although of course not dispositive.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7614-nMonte-tour-of-the-Middle-East-across-Space-and-Time
I'd have to check the dates, but I wonder if the increase in terms of European Neolithic intrusion might be because the first wave of steppe like gene flow came, as has been hypothesized, from the steppe through the Balkans, picking up such genes there.
The operative word is "might".
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7614-nMonte-tour-of-the-Middle-East-across-Space-and-Time
I'd have to check the dates, but I wonder if the increase in terms of European Neolithic intrusion might be because the first wave of steppe like gene flow came, as has been hypothesized, from the steppe through the Balkans, picking up such genes there.
The operative word is "might".
berun
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So no proof at all, only an argumentum ad ignorantiam, so weak is the yamnayist theory?
Science is not working like that except for the steppe theory.
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