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Thread: First Celts

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    A. Papadimitriou

    Following my previous comment on Bell beakers and Celts, one must bear in mind that when the greeks and later romans started to talk about Iberia they noticed that Iberia was diverse.
    The Cynesii, were actually The non Celtic group. Cynesii, or the Coinos, They were the remains of the Perdigoes and Porto torrao people that had a lot of berber, north African, admixture and kept way from the everything that went down between 2000BC onwards north of them. Cynesii must have been the most similar group to south Iberia Chalcolithic flooding into Iberia from north africa fleeing the 5.9 kiloyear event that made the Sahara desert. Berbers mixed with pure Caucasians that had been in North lower Egypt. Of These later specific group, Those that flee west where to become the bell beaker stock. Those that flee east, following Kindship (always keep an eye in it) became the Cholchis (or part of) and Iberians…. In Georgia (yes, Caucasus). That is why those brought back some sub-Saharan (Nubian and upper nile) admix into the coast of the black sea.
    So, the ancient greeks and even romans noticed it. From south Iberia up there was diferent, there were the Oestrimni people and all the western and north Iberia was at that point the result of the first men that were the bell beakers (non PIE?), and the backflow the follow the next milenia (already pie?) and was a gradient of pie speakers with non-pie speakers, resulting from the blender that the BB millennia network had been. a back flow that did not involved DNA from central eastern groups, even if some were also BB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Let's stop magic linguistics and etymologies, please.
    I don't think greek G- never came from an I-E *Wh-; words (names) in Wal- (an derived french word Gaul- ) are considered of Germanic origin, from a Celtic tribre name Volsque; this Celtic tribe was settled in North-Hessen in Germany before emigrating southwestwards (in southern Gaul or rather Celtica, some of them into Iberia), so surely in contact with Germanic tribes expanding towards southern Germany at some time; the sensible explanation is that this word took the meaning of "stranger" or "foreigner" for Germanic ancient speakers and was applied later by more eastern Germanic tribes to other not-germanic ethnies so 'Valach'. so the french derived word/name Gaul HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH Galat-;
    linguistic origins of words/names is not the same problem as language or ethnicity; Welsh/Gaul and Cy are exonyms applying to tribes of very close origins to Celts of Celti(c)a = of Gaul = of Galia; the G- in Gaul is from an ancient Gw- << W- (exonym); Galat- of the Greeks could be related to the Galli of Latins, if we consider Greeks had no more geminees (doubled) letters: I don't know here;
    My purpose is not to say there was no link between Celts, Galli, Galati or Walhsc- of some sort; my aim was to affirm the most of this namings are of diverse origin; my first answer was to precise the element 'celt-' was not limited to a soletribe of S-Portugal, only that.
    But, please, let's stop with pseudo-linguistics, No offense to anybody, only a wish.
    it is not that I want to have last word,
    But I believe that all these
    Slav
    Kelt
    Selloi (Greeks)
    come from the virbs of speach,

    video and ιδεα from vidi and οιδα? same virb
    video and ιδαιον nothing common,

    Besides
    Galates is the effort to translate Greek Γ το latin Alphabet,
    the corect sound of Γαλατες is not Galates but Whalates
    we overpass Erasmian linguistics, which help us a lot during centuries,
    Αγρος Agri, Αργυρος Argentum but is not the same sound.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    little adding: at some time of its evolution it seems Greek *W- (written V-) faded out rather than leave some trace, even in the vowel colour (cf latin 'video' and greek 'idea' and hundreds of other words); I red somewhere the *W- was still pronounced in Mycenian greek.
    This is absolutely correct. *w was (largely) lost in Greek by the archaic period (except for some dialects, written with the letter digamma), but it was definitely present in earlier Mycenaean Greek.

    - English "work" versus Greek εργον (earlier *ϝεργον).
    - αναξ 'king' (earlier *ϝαναξ, spelled Wa-na-ka in Linear B)
    - Ilion (the alternate name of the city of Troy), earlier *Wilion (spelled Wiluša in Hittite sources).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    A. Papadimitriou

    Following my previous comment on Bell beakers and Celts, one must bear in mind that when the greeks and later romans started to talk about Iberia they noticed that Iberia was diverse.
    The Cynesii, were actually The non Celtic group. Cynesii, or the Coinos, They were the remains of the Perdigoes and Porto torrao people that had a lot of berber, north African, admixture and kept way from the everything that went down between 2000BC onwards north of them. Cynesii must have been the most similar group to south Iberia Chalcolithic flooding into Iberia from north africa fleeing the 5.9 kiloyear event that made the Sahara desert. Berbers mixed with pure Caucasians that had been in North lower Egypt. Of These later specific group, Those that flee west where to become the bell beaker stock. Those that flee east, following Kindship (always keep an eye in it) became the Cholchis (or part of) and Iberians…. In Georgia (yes, Caucasus). That is why those brought back some sub-Saharan (Nubian and upper nile) admix into the coast of the black sea.
    So, the ancient greeks and even romans noticed it. From south Iberia up there was diferent, there were the Oestrimni people and all the western and north Iberia was at that point the result of the first men that were the bell beakers (non PIE?), and the backflow the follow the next milenia (already pie?) and was a gradient of pie speakers with non-pie speakers, resulting from the blender that the BB millennia network had been. a back flow that did not involved DNA from central eastern groups, even if some were also BB.
    I'm well aware of the 5.9 kiloyear event, which played a role in the proto-Egyptian history.
    But I don't know about migrations to Iberia, allthough some might have happened.
    Far less do I see a connection with Bell Beakers that appeared 1000 years later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it is not that I want to have last word,
    But I believe that all these
    Slav
    Kelt
    Selloi (Greeks)
    come from the virbs of speach,

    video and ιδεα from vidi and οιδα? same virb
    video and ιδαιον nothing common,

    Besides
    Galates is the effort to translate Greek Γ το latin Alphabet,
    the corect sound of Γαλατες is not Galates but Whalates
    we overpass Erasmian linguistics, which help us a lot during centuries,
    Αγρος Agri, Αργυρος Argentum but is not the same sound.
    ThanksYetos for fair « contestation ».
    1- Yes common root for 'idein' << *wid- : « I see »,'oida' = « I know », 'eidos' = « look » -some
    I-Ewords linked to the meanings of « seeing » or « knowing »have this same root, sort of *weid-;
    2-I suppose G- in ancient greek was pronounced /g/ before becoming thesound //close to the dutch pronouciation of G too ; this sound isroughly between /X/and /h/, close enough to modern French 'r' /R/ ;nothing in common with WH, spelling of scot /hw/ from Germanics/hw/ << Kw-; the greek G has nothing in common with thelabial /w/.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    The original Celts came from central Europe. However modern central Europeans (Swiss and Austrians) don't look phenotypically Celtic in the modern interpretation (Irish, welsh). Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.
    Irish look like the originals, although their dominant male ancestor branched west before they became known as "Celts". Modern Austrians have eastern (Slavic) and southern input (Middle Eastern). The Celts of Central Europe - ie Austria were known to be pale skinned and light haired, including red headed by the Greeks and Romans, and large of frame.

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    Please consider parallels:
    Lithuania is Lietuva, Lithuanian -Lietuvis in our language.
    Littau in Germanic languages. Litavis—also known as Litauis,[1] Litaui, Litauia,[2][3] and Llydaw[4]—is a goddess in Celtic mythology worshiped by the ancient Gauls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litavis
    Neris river flows through the capital Vilnius.
    Nerius is listed between Celtic gods.
    Proto-Celtic *dewo- 'god' = Olr. dia, OW duiu,
    Dievas in Lithuanian, "Dievo rankose"-"in the hands of god".

    Boii was Celtic tribe, Deserta Bojorum in Roman Pannonia.
    15+ placenames Bajoru in Lithuania.
    Bajorai was the richest social class of warriors and landowners in Lithuania also in all area from Serbia to Finland.

  8. #33
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Irish look like the originals, although their dominant male ancestor branched west before they became known as "Celts". Modern Austrians have eastern (Slavic) and southern input (Middle Eastern). The Celts of Central Europe - ie Austria were known to be pale skinned and light haired, including red headed by the Greeks and Romans, and large of frame.
    The problem with your nordicist tale is that everything about Insular Celtic suggests that it was a recent arrival from continental Europe, with very close affinity to Gaulish. The autosmal profile of the Isles however was established much earlier. The more parsimonious explanation for the shedding of the endonym is that the 'ethnically Celtic' stratum constituted a minority element in the north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN;489293
    [FONT=Liberation Serif
    2-I suppose G- in ancient greek was pronounced /g/ before becoming thesound [/FONT]//close to the dutch pronouciation of G too ; this sound isroughly between /X/and /h/, close enough to modern French 'r' /R/ ;nothing in common with WH, spelling of scot /hw/ from Germanics/hw/ << Kw-; the greek G has nothing in common with thelabial /w/.
    indeed, but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf as Gaul or celt Wall+++
    Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης, not Γελτος but κελτος,
    remember the name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Attic dialect,
    but the name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me the Makedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->V and Γ -> wh not G.
    Makedonians write Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica, so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G

    so the termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ, copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,
    the one that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virb κελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules
    considering that κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of the commander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also from the same root,
    I think we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλω modern καλω,
    Greek διγαμα w also gives B V compare gw,
    only we need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of Whallach Walloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is it possible or according linguistic laws? or no?
    and here is where I give up.

    btw the Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeks turn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italy by press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano
    this has nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I'm well aware of the 5.9 kiloyear event, which played a role in the proto-Egyptian history.
    But I don't know about migrations to Iberia, allthough some might have happened.
    Far less do I see a connection with Bell Beakers that appeared 1000 years later.
    Humm. Ok. late neolithic people in Iberia (up until 3500 bc) were extremely scarce and very homogeneous (as per Nm dental traits), suddenly a overload of arrows and carinated pottery people flooded into South Iberia and these were very diverse and heterogeneous populations some being clearly related to N.Africa (proto Berber) and other not (tallish brachy and Mesocephalic) but very establish and fortified by 3000 Bc. During the 4th millennia north Africa saw the vanish of a staggering amount of population (read Kate manning) at the same time south Iberia shows settlements of over 100 Ha and even over 300ha (Porto torrao) or a bit north in Zambujal, actually where by 2800 Bell beakers are seen arising... So.,, where is that you are not seeing the connection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Humm. Ok. late neolithic people in Iberia (up until 3500 bc) were extremely scarce and very homogeneous (as per Nm dental traits), suddenly a overload of arrows and carinated pottery people flooded into South Iberia and these were very diverse and heterogeneous populations some being clearly related to N.Africa (proto Berber) and other not (tallish brachy and Mesocephalic) but very establish and fortified by 3000 Bc. During the 4th millennia north Africa saw the vanish of a staggering amount of population (read Kate manning) at the same time south Iberia shows settlements of over 100 Ha and even over 300ha (Porto torrao) or a bit north in Zambujal, actually where by 2800 Bell beakers are seen arising... So.,, where is that you are not seeing the connection?
    Do you think that the maritime Beaker and the high status male burial package that includes wristguard and copper daggers originally entered Europe from North Africa with this migration? I've always thought that Proto-Beaker was basically Moroccan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    indeed, but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf as Gaul or celt Wall+++
    Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης, not Γελτος but κελτος,
    remember the name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Attic dialect,
    but the name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me the Makedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->V and Γ -> wh not G.
    Makedonians write Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica, so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G

    so the termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ, copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,
    the one that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virb κελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules
    considering that κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of the commander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also from the same root,
    I think we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλω modern καλω,
    Greek διγαμα w also gives B V compare gw,
    only we need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of Whallach Walloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is it possible or according linguistic laws? or no?
    and here is where I give up.

    btw the Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeks turn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italy by press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano
    this has nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later,
    This is somewhat offtopic, but I'd like to bring a very important point across here: you're basically using the phonology (and spelling conventions) of modern Greek onto ancient Greek, which is just plain wrong. The letter Gamma (Γγ) would have been pronounced still as /g/ (as in English 'good'). The digraph 'gk' (γκ) would have still been pronounced as /ŋk/ (as in English 'sink'). Likewise, you're mixing up about Macedonian: in the ancient Macedonian dialect, Attic /pʰ/ (written by Φφ) was pronounced /b/. In Koine, Phi started to be pronounced as /f/, but /b/ was still pronounced as /b/. The change of /b/ > /v/ only happened in Late(st) Koine / early Byzantine Greek (hence in medieval sources, the Varangians are spelled Βαραγγοι and not Ουαραγγοι).

    By the way, I think what Yetos tries to approximate with "wh" is actually voiced velar fricative /ɣ/, a sound which is similar to French 'r' but pronounced slightly further in front of the mouth. This is the modern value of the letter "Gamma" (hence its IPA symbol was also taken off lower case Gamma).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Do you think that the maritime Beaker and the high status male burial package that includes wristguard and copper daggers originally entered Europe from North Africa with this migration? I've always thought that Proto-Beaker was basically Moroccan.
    a. Stressed out pops getting into Iberia during 4th millennia were diverse and got in rubbing against each other making smoke because they were diverse. If that population was exchanging people between south (alentejo) and North (zambujal/Vnsp) and they show very diverse phenotype, including brachycephalic and also "Armenoid looks", so... yes, they "all" come together form north africa.
    b.If bell beakers are first seen in Huts 4 meters from the wall of the leceia fortified settlement, believe me they were "one of them". That thing was a military Power house and no outside or exogenous people would ever be allowed to settle near them. We find inhumation at its walls that nobody even care to bury. See. not nice people.
    c. Gosh. Copper dagger is details. See while in Iberia by 3000 bc it is found copper smelting. But the quality of that copper is rubbish. so they made tools of Amphibolic rocks that actually was hard enough. Later bell beaker copper was a token sign that they had found the good stuff. .. Show-offs. :)
    d. Bell beakers were the people that left the Fortified sites and started to live in open spaces and move from site to site with their cattle and going back to the life of their ancestors getting back to hunting. They clearly were an elite warrior from whatever happened in south Iberia from 3300 bc to 2900 bc.
    e. I always found funny how they (BB) got back to the initial fortified small settlements of the end of the 4th millenia in south portugal, already abandoned, and resettle those as if part of their folklore. Gosh, that is over 600 years after those initial settlements were the first one to pop up: Porto das Carretas, Mercador, Moinho de Valadares.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    This is somewhat offtopic, but I'd like to bring a very important point across here: you're basically using the phonology (and spelling conventions) of modern Greek onto ancient Greek, which is just plain wrong. The letter Gamma (Γγ) would have been pronounced still as /g/ (as in English 'good'). The digraph 'gk' (γκ) would have still been pronounced as /ŋk/ (as in English 'sink'). Likewise, you're mixing up about Macedonian: in the ancient Macedonian dialect, Attic /pʰ/ (written by Φφ) was pronounced /b/. In Koine, Phi started to be pronounced as /f/, but /b/ was still pronounced as /b/. The change of /b/ > /v/ only happened in Late(st) Koine / early Byzantine Greek (hence in medieval sources, the Varangians are spelled Βαραγγοι and not Ουαραγγοι).

    • Πιθανή τροπή των ΙΕ ηχηρών δασέων (*/bh/, */dh/, */gh/) σε ηχηρά κλειστά (*/b/, */d/, */g/)


    also paragraph 3.2.1
    http://www.hellinon.net/NeesSelides/...Makedonika.htm

    it is certain that the Makedonians change the sounds of ancient S Greek to koine to modern ones, not the Byzantines.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Many sources state that some Tarim Mummies are related to Celts. How people determined their relation to ancient Celts is unclear. This one forum member wrote earlier. The physical appearance of Tarim Mummies has been preserved in the sand.
    Tarim mummies have nothing to do with Celts. The only evidence is the Tarim mummies look European. The people who came to this conclusion were not aware that Europeans from Russia made settlements all over Central Asia and Siberia from 3000-2000 BC and some of their descendants lived in that region with little Asian admixture up until 700 AD, so it is no surprise to find ancient mummies of European looking people in Central Asia. The excitement media outlets made about the tarim mummies around 10-20 years ago was based mostly on lies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Secondly, the red-haired Tarim mummies wearing tartan clothes similar to those of Hallstatt only dated from 1000 BCE, and were not tested for DNA. They might have been a later arrival to the region (who knows perhaps a very far offshoot of Hallstatt, as incredible as it sounds ? But the presence of red hair and tartan and a Centum language, all associated with Celtic people, in the Tarim basin is all incredible enough in itself, so why not ?)
    I have never seen an image of a red haired Tarim mummy. Unless an archaeologist who has seen mummies that aren't on the internet claims some had red hair, I don't believe any with red hair have been found. The mummies on the internet declared as red haired are all black/brown haired. The claim they have red hair was repeated so many times people started to believe it.

    The claim(lie) they have red hair I believe was used to be evidence they were Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post

    Boii was Celtic tribe, Deserta Bojorum in Roman Pannonia.
    15+ placenames Bajoru in Lithuania.
    Bajorai was the richest social class of warriors and landowners in Lithuania also in all area from Serbia to Finland.
    As far the rank Bojars in our language are concerned,it is coming from *Boj (battle,fight) i.e man for battle,OCS *Boi (battle,fight) Proto-Slavic *bojь,the same.
    Some consider cognate the Illyrian proper name Boius.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norvila View Post
    Neris river flows through the capital Vilnius.
    Nerius is listed between Celtic gods.
    Proto-Celtic *dewo- 'god' = Olr. dia, OW duiu,
    Dievas in Lithuanian, "Dievo rankose"-"in the hands of god".
    Nereus is also god in Greek mythology,Neretva is river in Bosnia most probably same IE root.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Humm. Ok. late neolithic people in Iberia (up until 3500 bc) were extremely scarce and very homogeneous (as per Nm dental traits), suddenly a overload of arrows and carinated pottery people flooded into South Iberia and these were very diverse and heterogeneous populations some being clearly related to N.Africa (proto Berber) and other not (tallish brachy and Mesocephalic) but very establish and fortified by 3000 Bc. During the 4th millennia north Africa saw the vanish of a staggering amount of population (read Kate manning) at the same time south Iberia shows settlements of over 100 Ha and even over 300ha (Porto torrao) or a bit north in Zambujal, actually where by 2800 Bell beakers are seen arising... So.,, where is that you are not seeing the connection?
    do you mean places like Los Millares, Zambujal and the like ?
    dates are not sharp, but Los Millares I would guess 3100 - 3200 BC and Zambujal even a bit later
    these newcomers knew about metallurgy
    are there traces of metallurgy in N. Africa ?
    you say 2 people , tallish brachy and Mesocephalic are more steppe-like and what traits have proto Berber?
    Bell Beaker appears only few centuries after metallurgy and fortified places

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    do you mean places like Los Millares, Zambujal and the like ?
    dates are not sharp, but Los Millares I would guess 3100 - 3200 BC and Zambujal even a bit later
    these newcomers knew about metallurgy
    are there traces of metallurgy in N. Africa ?
    you say 2 people , tallish brachy and Mesocephalic are more steppe-like and what traits have proto Berber?
    Bell Beaker appears only few centuries after metallurgy and fortified places

    Hi Its a bit confusing how you put it.
    a. Los millares, la conception, San blas, la pijotilla, Perdigoes, Porto torrão... and a couple centuries later Zambujal, Vnsp, leceia. But it does not matter. its just an explosion of settlements, some huge, huge, at a point populations are vanishing from north Africa... its a no brainer.

    b. Mostly they did know how to make long blades. and also brought "tanged" arrows, since later copper Bell beakers daggers were "tanged".... and lots of lots of new traits. And yes. There are smelting of copper in early Zambujal. Lousy copper, but copper. but if you need something that works and is hard, them use Ampholite rock that they imported a lot from central Iberia. so copper was too poor to have any usage.

    c. Also they brought a lot of Ivory from Africa. which later you would find as an elite V perforated buttons on bell beaker burials. and lots and lots of more stuff from Africa.

    d . Overall there were too many different phenotypes. In Carenque you find skeletons and crania that were Hyper-Doly to Hyper Barchy. and some were small like Muge people and Hyper-Doly and others where bigger and extreme round-headsand taller (specially women) .
    But most were Mediterraneans looking people like Capsians in N. Africa or late neolithic Iberians. we know they came from N. Africa mainly because some strontium does say so (they were actually born there!) and Nom metric Dental traits puts for instance Perdigoes populations (albeit the high Diversity) as "Europoid" but bordering North African... so. Makes sense.

    Did I answers your questions?

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    Some pan'mediter' traits were common on the two sides of the mediterranean before the 5000 BC so it proves nothing without more details - what we have to verify is the origin of the metallurgic skills (perhaps more than ONE, I think : surely); demic attraction towards more skilled culture/economy or even slavery could explain the coming of PARTLY north-african newcomers; were they among the elites? I doubt but who know todate? What is sure is that BBs were only a kind of metallurgists among or rather aside other metallurgists, at least at the beginning, it's to say when archeologists begin to find distinctive cultural traits in Portugal.

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    Demic Attraction?

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Some pan'mediter' traits were common on the two sides of the mediterranean before the 5000 BC so it proves nothing without more details - what we have to verify is the origin of the metallurgic skills (perhaps more than ONE, I think : surely); demic attraction towards more skilled culture/economy or even slavery could explain the coming of PARTLY north-african newcomers; were they among the elites? I doubt but who know todate? What is sure is that BBs were only a kind of metallurgists among or rather aside other metallurgists, at least at the beginning, it's to say when archeologists begin to find distinctive cultural traits in Portugal.

    Hummm... No, no Moesan. Weird talk.
    See Katie Manning Mp4 animation of North Africa disappearing people. There was no attraction. It was something like Hundreds of thousands crossing gibralter strait fleeing those aeloian winds. So that flood of people made Iberia Chalcolithic.
    What as chalcolithic Iberia? - Highly diverse and heterogenous populations, like I said, from crania morpholofy to most important Nonmetric dental traits (see J. Desideri works) showing a very homogenous late neolithic Iberia and a very heterogenous iberia chalcolithic. So, no argument anymore.

    Now, buckle up. Dont expect you to believe ( and dont care). Amongst those people fleeing the birth of Sahara was a Caucasian (literal) population that previous was in El omari and Merimde and those became the Bell beakers... but that would be a long story ...

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