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Thread: First Celts

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    First Celts

    The original Celts came from central Europe. However modern central Europeans (Swiss and Austrians) don't look phenotypically Celtic in the modern interpretation (Irish, welsh). Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.

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    edit: Never mind



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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.
    Yes.

    More seriously, why not both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    why not both?
    Swiss and southern germans look really different from welsh and irish, and are very different genitically.

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    My guess is there were two waves from the same source but they took different routes and mixed with different people along the way so look different.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    1- Swiss people present different means of phenotypical traits according to regions, and are a bit different from Austrians themselves not too homogenous by regions.
    2- As Irishpeople they show genetical admixtures (phenotype: crossings).
    3- Switzerland present - rather in TODAY germanic regions, it's true - an honorable amount of red hairs and freckling.
    4- Celts, spite already mixed when arriving in Western Europe, were surely less mixed than later, when sedentized with new crossings: different according to places: Irish people absorbed, I think, more HG inherited DNA than Swiss.
    5- irish people were almost not concerned at all by Roman colonization and admixture which could have decreased HG DNA. It's not the case for Swiss people.
    I dont discard at all numerous diverse roads taken by Celts in their long march towards West.
    In short, I would say, Switzerland, mountainous, can preserv more regional differences. But also, this country sheltered more neolithic populations in some places for te same reason before Steppic imput, and accepted more new populations later.

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    Scientists - Slovakian and European archeologists speak "Celts" to people of Hallstatt culture. It are only "metaforic" Celts, it is not the same as Celts in popular literature and cinematography. British Celts and Celts of Hallstatt culture this are 2 very different ethnic groups

    Hallstatt culture in wikipedia
    Last edited by Sloven-Vened; 08-09-16 at 16:03.

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    Cyril Hroník is Slovakian historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career is skeptical to "Celts" in middle Europa too: Ethymology of word "Celt" (or Gals or Gaels) is "outlaw / bandit, gangster"


    Dr. Cyril Hromník
    Last edited by Sloven-Vened; 08-09-16 at 16:10.

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    'celt' is not the same thing as 'gall-' # nor 'gael' << 'gaedil''goidel'; so no common eymology for them; the best specialists tried to find an etymology for 'celt' and there is not accord on it so open are the possibilities, for I know. Taranis could surely say something up to date of more precise about it.

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    Tell me if I am wrong but the only people that identified with the word celt were the 'celtici' in southern portugal.

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    Not the only tribe, I think. Ancient Greeks mentioned Keltoi in today Southern France; they believed, i think, that Celts ruled the whole Occident of Europe at these times. A noble Arverne mentioned by Julius Caesar and supposed to be the Vercingetorix's father, was named Celtillos : name where the root "celt" is obvious.
    I wonder if celtic 'kelt' would not be a I-E cognate of the current germanic word 'held': "heros"? just an hypothesis among others...

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    there are 2 groups of Celts : Halstatt and Atlantic Celts
    IMO both descend from Csepl Bell Beaker

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    The terminatination Keltos Gaul celt Galates I think, personal opinion that mean speaker, or coal miners-producers
    compare celtic tribes name, Walloon Walles Gaul Wallach etc etc
    all fit with words like Yell, γλωττα (language)

    anyway, it is not mine, but I can not remember where I heve read it or heard it.
    but both cases, Speakers/language, and coal miners/fire people, are accepted by me and shared as possible,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    Tell me if I am wrong but the only people that identified with the word celt were the 'celtici' in southern portugal.
    The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "Celtillus" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.

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    You can download english language scientific publication of archeologist Egon Wiedermann:
    Prehistoric Settlement, Celts in middle Europa, Slovakia,
    click to this link: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...satian-Culture
    Publishers of British Archaeological Reports

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    Why Csepel?

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there are 2 groups of Celts : Halstatt and Atlantic Celts
    IMO both descend from Csepl Bell Beaker
    Csepel? - Why would you say that? did you the Boehmia group?

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    @yetos:
    Galati and Kelti are surely different and Gauls is proven to be different, so i doubt they could have common etymology; wilde etymologies are the cancer of paleolinguistic; the most reliable scholars are the most prudent! And even some well graduate scientists fall in the trap of hypothesis presented as undiscutable facts, helas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "Celtillus" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.
    Be it right or wrong , to distinguish this large celtic group ( to include the balkan celts ), I have ......

    All are of GALLIC ethnicity and some speak a CELTIC language and some speak a GAULISH language ............and these languages are very similar but do have some minor differences.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @yetos:
    Galati and Kelti are surely different and Gauls is proven to be different, so i doubt they could have common etymology; wilde etymologies are the cancer of paleolinguistic; the most reliable scholars are the most prudent! And even some well graduate scientists fall in the trap of hypothesis presented as undiscutable facts, helas.
    All these are the same name of the same linguistic group.
    Greeks call them Galates, belgae celts that moved to minor Asia (Brennos or vae victis story)
    Herodotos names them Keltos
    later Greeks call them Galloi,
    their inner names Wallons Walles Wallach etc etc now this W in Greek turns to Γ K or B (C G V)
    Aromani language which is celtic is called Armanesti, VLACHISTI (maybe wallachisti or villachisti?)
    At the language of some Pontic Greeks we see the word γαλαντζευω (whala-) and means speak at own language/dialect

    it can be coinsidence but the word for language and tongue in Greek Γλωττα Γλωσσα Γρουσσα, Γλωσσα try Γ-> wh or G and add an a, YOU GET Whalutta Whallussa or Galussa Galutta

    the english word YELL cognates with the ancient Greek word ΚΕΛΕΥΩ ΚΕΛΛΩ, IE Kel-
    at the lexicons we see synonyms are words
    κελητας κελης κελευστης etc, means the one who is yelling orders, the yelling commander, (hero?)
    in modern Greek is replaced by καλω call
    The birds in Greek are not singing, they Κελ-αιδουν, they communicate and call each other
    the ςατερ ατ waterfalls and streams do not make noise, they Κελ-αριζουν, they speak

    PS
    There is another option, that Gaul means goat leather/fleece wearer, the ai-Callicum, but I doupt

    PS2
    so yes I am not a linguist, and I have not conviced you
    but since you are, can you explain the commonalities as concern the language?
    cause I think you now have enough stable base to search,
    Anyway I do not believe cancer in linguistics, but on the other hand I CAN NOT REJECT, using a scizzorcut, THAT CELT COMES FROM IE root KEL- means call speak command etc
    from the same root that word Γλωσσα comes from, except if you prefer to lang- than to kel- (or it is kelan-guage?)

    maybe I have not convice you, but I am certain that words Kelt Celt Gaul Whallon Whallach etc etc come from the same root of IE kel-
    Last edited by Yetos; 08-09-16 at 22:59.

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    Many sources state that some Tarim Mummies are related to Celts. How people determined their relation to ancient Celts is unclear. This one forum member wrote earlier. The physical appearance of Tarim Mummies has been preserved in the sand.

    ---


    Secondly, the red-haired Tarim mummies wearing tartan clothes similar to those of Hallstatt only dated from 1000 BCE, and were not tested for DNA. They might have been a later arrival to the region (who knows perhaps a very far offshoot of Hallstatt, as incredible as it sounds ? But the presence of red hair and tartan and a Centum language, all associated with Celtic people, in the Tarim basin is all incredible enough in itself, so why not ?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Not the only tribe, I think. Ancient Greeks mentioned Keltoi in today Southern France; they believed, i think, that Celts ruled the whole Occident of Europe at these times. A noble Arverne mentioned by Julius Caesar and supposed to be the Vercingetorix's father, was named Celtillos : name where the root "celt" is obvious.
    I wonder if celtic 'kelt' would not be a I-E cognate of the current germanic word 'held': "heros"? just an hypothesis among others...
    Herodotus wrote this

    For the Ister flows from the land of the Celts and the city of Pyrene through the very middle of Europe; now the Celts live beyond the Pillars of Heracles, being neighbors of the Cynesii, who are the westernmost of all the peoples inhabiting Europe.
    It's a little confusing because Ister is Danube. So Pyrene should be placed at the source of Danube. And some have said that it was Heuneburg.
    Most people think that Cynesii would have been Iberians. So, the 'lands of the Celts', included most of modern-day France (?) too.
    But the geographical knowledge was limited.

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    Let's stop magic linguistics and etymologies, please.
    I don't think greek G- never came from an I-E *Wh-; words (names) in Wal- (an derived french word Gaul- ) are considered of Germanic origin, from a Celtic tribre name Volsque; this Celtic tribe was settled in North-Hessen in Germany before emigrating southwestwards (in southern Gaul or rather Celtica, some of them into Iberia), so surely in contact with Germanic tribes expanding towards southern Germany at some time; the sensible explanation is that this word took the meaning of "stranger" or "foreigner" for Germanic ancient speakers and was applied later by more eastern Germanic tribes to other not-germanic ethnies so 'Valach'. so the french derived word/name Gaul HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH Galat-;
    linguistic origins of words/names is not the same problem as language or ethnicity; Welsh/Gaul and Cy are exonyms applying to tribes of very close origins to Celts of Celti(c)a = of Gaul = of Galia; the G- in Gaul is from an ancient Gw- << W- (exonym); Galat- of the Greeks could be related to the Galli of Latins, if we consider Greeks had no more geminees (doubled) letters: I don't know here;
    My purpose is not to say there was no link between Celts, Galli, Galati or Walhsc- of some sort; my aim was to affirm the most of this namings are of diverse origin; my first answer was to precise the element 'celt-' was not limited to a soletribe of S-Portugal, only that.
    But, please, let's stop with pseudo-linguistics, No offense to anybody, only a wish.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    little adding: at some time of its evolution it seems Greek *W- (written V-) faded out rather than leave some trace, even in the vowel colour (cf latin 'video' and greek 'idea' and hundreds of other words); I red somewhere the *W- was still pronounced in Mycenian greek.

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    erratum: not Volsques but Volques

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    You all (very polite, right?)
    Hummm. Look. Reality is always simple. It’s just that we have fun making it complicated.
    Just a couple facts always to keep in mind.
    1. Remember, even today, people always follow kinship. See, for instance, after colonial people got back to… Kinship. So it’s a force of nature.

    2. Up until 1,500 Years ago ( Haak wasn’t it?) Europe was not comparatively admixed. So… people were more or less differentiated by looks.

    3 . If we follow bell beakers as a network, those were an homogenous group originating in Portugal, moving to Spain (northern), South France, north Italy, Switzerland and even Hungary (csepel). So later groups of people follow kinship over the centuries across geographical spaces linked by cultural traits. Don’t know how this tight southern group interacted with Northern groups near the Atlantic coast (not eastern) but all seems to indicate that at least, at least, western France, Netherlands and UK were also a part of the same tight group. So the network Linking people probably was all over these mentioned areas.

    4. The bohemia group bell beakers (Czech rep) moved up Elbe river, with a lot of CWC admixture with them (we now they did exchange women) and it’s not a stretch of imagination to figure they interacted well (also Kinship) with the originals Iberian groups all over Europe even though they did carry some CWC phenotypes with them.

    5. However, by what, 1000bc (?), these bell beaker network must have gotten very heterogeneous because after 1000 years the local populations genomes, from so many sites, that the original BB groups rejected so visibly must have been pretty much part of whatever milieu was by then the European tribe and culture substratum. Nevertheless the admix for celts, after Bronze Age, was a network that was based on the original (originals?) BB groups (notice I used groups and not group) so it follow some kinship all over Europe… even to south Iberia. And this was Europe. This were the celts.


    6. Some in the north admixed with some CWC blood (women) but no Unetice at all, and others more southern comprised of the original Late neolithic and chalcolithic Iberia diverse people, amongst them were the Bell beakers males born out of the copos culture of Zambujal, VNSP, and leceia and even a bit north of Portugal. Yes, Celtics (in broad sense) in the western versus the Cymbrians and Scythian in the east (really Unetice and CWC remains) the sons of the Yamnaya!

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