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Thread: Brexit: not inevitable

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am disappointed by some of the reactions here (nordicwarrior, Sile, Aaron1981, Maleth, Yetos), but it is not surprising from people who aren't British, haven't lived in Britain and do not have any personal tie to the country. I should have mentioned from the start where I stand personally and emotionally. I am Belgian, but I have studied and lived in England and still spend about a third of my time in the country. I have family and friends in England. I have followed the Brexit debate attentively for the last few months, most of the time from England itself, and I am as flabbergasted as most Londoners and most of the political class by the results of the referendum, especially when all opinion polls had the Remain camp winner.
    All I want tosay is that in Greece the referendum, had another question but same meaning with Brexit,
    Nothing happened,
    Brexit had clear question and meaning,
    and I ask,
    what is better?
    to leave the Union to make your own state laws?
    or to put fences all over Europe. more km than cold war times and bring NATO forces to secure the boarders?
    there are things we see and things we do not.
    We all know Cox killer was mental ill, (was he really?) but could that come from 'eternal' unemployment?,

    Do not be disapointed,
    It is not the original Idea of EC that turn people against,
    it is that after 50-60 years the idea stayed an idea,
    and instead of improving citizens life, in some areas only worse it is,
    So I do not blaim the unemployed English for his desicion,
    neither I moarn for EU not having England by her site
    But I have to respect the peoples choice,
    After all, EU is a Democratic Union, correct?
    although many of high levels officers are not elected,

    we need reformation of EU, and fast, and a fiscal union based with referendums, not just signed by politicians,
    either, here we are, soon we will see European countries leaving the one when road is defined,

    if Mercel pushes the long time way to exit, we are all doomed,
    now about EU immigrants and English immigrants at EU I am sure a solution due to today status, can be found and take place fast for existing ones,

    as you see, there are no personalities in EU like 20 years before,
    and Mercel alone can not protect Union,
    On the other hand, let England and Wales alone, they want to,

    NO NEED FOR MOARNING
    EITHER EU
    EITHER UK,

    all we need is fast referendums at N ireland and Scottland and a quick exit, to go both ahead,
    either we will all face a 7 years wounded beast called EU, and a maniac England,

    OR PUSH THE TTIP treaty FAST TO MAKE THE BIGGEST UNION (I don't think England will not enter that treaty)
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  2. #52
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    None of the EU leaders even thinks of resigning, except Cameron who failed to convince the people of the "EU greatness".

  3. #53
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi Oriental-- long time indeed. I've come out of Eupedia retirement for this particular subject-- it's that important

    Maciamo-- two brief points..
    1. You seem to have an issue with older folks. Remember though, with age comes wisdom.

    2. If the youth are so adept at dealing with change, well here comes a fresh new slate.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo, I am not heartless and I do wish you the best in these changing times. I have much enjoyed your site over the years.

    But leaving the EU was and is the best way forward.

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    David Lammy, the Labour MP for Tottenhem in London and former minister for higher education has posted an article in the Guardian calling for a second referendum because, as he puts it, the consequences of Brexit are too grave and would lead to the dissolution of the United Kingdom. The article reflects perfectly my feelings and, I believe, those of the millions of Brits who voted to remain in the EU and went on to sign the petition for the second referendum. As Mr Lammy explains, when people voted last Thursday they didn't know it would prompt the independence of Scotland and Northern Ireland from the UK. That would mean not just the end of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, but also the end of the Union Jack and many symbols that many British people strongly associated with and probably of the British monarchy too. So are British people ready to give up their name, flag, symbols and traditions in order to quit the EU, just because a part of the population used the referendum as a no-confidence vote for the prime minister and didn't think of the consequences of their vote?

    Here is a section of what Mr Lammy wrote. You will notice how closely it reflects what I said in my original post.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Guardian
    The impact of an economic downturn on my constituents is too devastating to contemplate. The impact will be similarly catastrophic across whole swaths of our country, especially in areas that are already struggling. In the manmade recession to follow, the worse off you are, the worse your future will be.

    We need to get real, quickly: $2tn was wiped off global markets on Friday; the pound has plummeted; and Moody’s has already downgraded our credit rating from “stable” to “negative”. A Brexit would be self-immolation.

    Nigel Farage and his gang of Brexiteers would have never quit or given up the fight on the basis of a result that was this close. You can’t write off 48% of voters without a serious fight, and we cannot usher in rule by plebiscite which unleashes the “wisdom” of resentment and prejudice reminiscent of 1930s Europe.

    Are we simply going to stand idly by and let a recession caused by the hubris of Boris Johnson push more and more people into poverty? Are we going to let our links with the outside world be cast aside, leaving our children to grow up without the same opportunities for travel, study and cultural exchange that my generation have taken for granted?

    Since Friday morning Britain has woken up to a hangover of nightmarish proportions. We could all see from the look on the faces of Johnson and Michael Gove that they know that they will be managing a perpetual decline in our economy and our national standing and reputation.

    It is very clear that the leave campaigners do not have the slightest semblance of a plan. The promises that the campaign was built on were nothing more than a pack of lies. Before bedtime on Friday the claims about £350m extra cash to spend on public services and the ending of free movement of labour had already unravelled before our eyes.

    The future of our country, of our young people and of their children and grandchildren is too much to throw away on the basis of a duplicitous campaign that has already fallen apart.

    It is clear that people are angry with the political class and that, with the European Union coming to represent everything that is wrong with our country, they took this opportunity to give the establishment a kicking. But is Johnson going to care about these disaffected people who feel left out and let down? Not a jot. We are slowly waking up to the fact that the emperor has no clothes. Is a post-Brexit government going to inject money into the areas that lose out on employers and investment because we leave the European Union? Not a chance in hell.

    The referendum was advisory and non-binding, in contrast to the referendum on electoral reform in 2011 which imposed a legal obligation on the government to legislate. Almost 500 members of parliament declared themselves in favour of remain, and it is within their powers to stop this madness through a vote in parliament.

    It is also within parliament’s powers to call a second referendum, now that the dust has begun to settle and the reality of a post-Brexit nation is coming into view. We need a second referendum at the very least, on the basis of a plan that is yet to even be drawn up.
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    Allthough there were a lot of stupid voters, and the campaign was playing on sentiments, it should be a very clear signal to the EU leaders that there was a majority in Britain to opt out.
    But there is no reaction at all of the EU leaders, execept that 'they should explain their project better'. No question about the project itself nor the way it is managed. What an arrogance.

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    The Brexit is a sign of distrust toward Bruxelles not to Europe.
    The real problem of any federalism system is the risk of dilution of responsability, specialy if we lack of real unity. At the end, Nobody is responsible for nothing. At the end it 's the open door to individuals greeds.IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I can see that you have not followed the Leave vs Remain campaign closely in the last few months as I have. The Leave campaigners argued that EU citizens living in the UK costs the NHS (Britain's fully-subsidised healthcare system) billions of pounds, when in fact EU citizens in the UK contribute vastly more to the British economy than they cost it (UK gains £20 billion from European migrants according to a UCL economist). For this reason the Leave campaign is seen mostly as deceitful and xenophobic and has only been supported by Far Right parties in Europe, such as Marine Le Pen in France.

    The question of Syrian refugees is irrelevant to the UK for three reasons:

    1) Britain is an island and refugees can't just walk there by ignoring political borders, as they did elsewhere in Europe. .

    They can fly there, flights are so cheap these days. Or even by boats.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    2) The UK is not in the EU's visa-free, border-free zone (Schengen Area), so leaving the EU won't change anything in that regard. In fact leaving the EU would surely prompt the UK to join Schengen like Norway and Switzerland and therefore allowing any Muslim immigrants accepted in, say, France or Greece, to legally live in the UK too. In other words being in the EU but not in Schengen allows Britain to benefit economically from the EU without having to open its borders.
    The problem is it only seems to benefit the upper class. My colleagues from Northern England are very upset with the EU and what it is doing to the UK, they have Blacks, Arabs and Eastern Europeans all wanting to come in, too much is too much, they say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There are almost no Syrian refugees in Britain today. Only 5000 have been accepted, much less than Denmark (which is 12x less populous than Britain) or Belgium, and even remote Australia (3x less populous than the UK). In comparison Germany has already welcomed 600,000 refugees, i.e. over one thousand times more than the UK ! You can check statistics on the number of Syrian refugees by country here..
    There are none today, it does not mean there will be none in the future. In Australia, we had Australian born Muslims (their parents were refugees) flew to Indonesia then try to fly from Malaysia to Syria to join the battle. They were caught in Indonesia before they had the chance to fly to Malaysia then to Syria to fulfill their "mission" and their Australian passports were cancelled. These refugees' children one day can continue to advance their "muslim invasion" one day, once they got their German passports.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So clearly Brexit has nothing to do with Syrian or other refugees. On the other hand, Britain has the third largest Muslim communities in Europe, nearly 5 million of them, mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi from the former British Raj. Yet Brexit is not going to change anything about that. There has never been any talk by any party to expel Muslim immigrants - only European people living and working in the UK ! In fact, even Priti Patel, the British minister for employment, who is of Indian descent (although Hindu, not Muslim) ardently supported the Leave campaign.
    The English people seem to have accepted their Indian and Pakistani immigrants, but they are not so keen to take on more Eastern European immigrants and Turkish or Middle Eastern immigrants without their own way of immigration control. They feel that the EU is deciding for them. That is the message I am getting from working with British.

    In the first post you labelled the working class, the uneducated people "nincompoops", Brexit is the result of Elites, highly educated people looking down and ignoring the working class for decades.



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  9. #59
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    A second referendum ignores the will of the people... they have spoken.

    You may not like their answer, but saying the decision is non-binding... I don't want to entertain this notion because of the doors it could open.

    The EU needs to learn from Brexit-- and learn quickly. A major course correction is overdue.

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    Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    The Brexit is a sign of distrust toward Bruxelles not to Europe.
    The real problem of any federalism system is the risk of dilution of responsability, specialy if we lack of real unity. At the end, Nobody is responsible for nothing. At the end it 's the open door to individuals greeds.IMO.
    That is certainly the case with the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    A second referendum ignores the will of the people... they have spoken.

    You may not like their answer, but saying the decision is non-binding... I don't want to entertain this notion because of the doors it could open.

    The EU needs to learn from Brexit-- and learn quickly. A major course correction is overdue.
    A 2nd referendum is possible, certainly as the split was very close, 48 - 52 %.
    But if they want to do that, they should do it quick, no time to waist.
    Britain should get his mind straight.

    And Europe should learn some lessons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece...
    Leaving the EU is stupid.
    But the EU should change quickly.
    Frustration about the EU policy and management of Europe by the politicians is very high.
    These people are particrats, appointed by their political fractions, they are not elected and they are not acountable for their actions. Furthermore they squander money and they are hughely overpaid.

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    side note: I tried to give a thumbs down to Maciamo's thread opening, but system said I already voted?

    This would have made eight thumbs down to one thumb up. The thumbs have spoken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and he is right, again

    Probably its a normal reaction and disappointment for not being re-elected after world war two. One would have thought that Churchill would have been voted in with a landslide right after being victorious after world war 11 but instead suffered a heavy defeat in the 1945 elections. It must have been a great disappointment, and people do say things like that in this situation. He was referring to the British electorate who anyway holds Winston Churchill in high regard.....but still voted him out
    Last edited by Maleth; 27-06-16 at 14:23.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Perhaps, but that still doesn't change the fact that London (1) is the most Muslim city in Britain, (2) has a Muslim mayor, and (3) is the least ethnically English part of England. In other words, London fits all the "requirements" for being a pro-Remain area IN ENGLAND (because Scotland and Northern Ireland, as this referendum has shown, are DIFFERENT cases with DIFFERENT interests from the rest of Britain).
    You would find that many 'indigenous' Londoners and other British people who made London their home (so to speak) who are a majority would be more acceptant of other cultures and somehow a good percentage are born with it. The countryside (and not only in England are usually more nationalistic and the lower the income the more nationalistic they would be. London is the Richest city in the UK in general and diversity has something to do with that too. The Indians, Bangladeshi's, Pakistanis and Africans would be considered British too and their roots in London go back to the '40's. There has always been an anti immigrant party in the England such as National Front who used to Lobby against these minorities. However the irony is that the influx of workers from the EU seem to have helped to make these parties more popular.

    An election of a London major would need much more then simply a Muslim vote, and support from much a broader spectrum. At any rate he attended the gay pride with his wife, not something very comparable with IS ideology like so many far right groups portrayed him to be!

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...y-pride-event/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Good to know. But still it would seem that it does not affect you directly whether the UK leaves the EU or not. What would you change for you personally?
    It would not change much personally, accept the fact of the impact it might have on the EU in general. My country seems to be heavily affected, as there are close historical links. However that can swing both ways. We could also benefit. It all depends on the new terms negotiated. My feeling is that there will be a mellow and smooth transaction. It works better and in the interest of both sides. The downside is that if the Uk (or England) keeps on doing well or even does better, then the EU will never be the same like we know it now. The UK is going to serve like a pilot project in some respect. The results will have positive or negative impact on the EU depending on the outcome. Its a wait and see issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The religious difference translates into an economic and social difference; that's the point. The way I hear it from the Irish community here is that the hiring, union preferment, salaries, even access to social services, everything was skewed so that the Protestants had an advantage, and lots of gerrymandering of electoral districts to keep it that way. The way they tell it the Protestants didn't want to lose that advantage by joining "Catholic" Ireland.

    Has all that changed? Was it not true in the past?

    Maybe it's the people I know. :) There were more than a few Irish-Americans who in the past gave money to the IRA even though if asked they would have said they never supported terrorist organizations.
    Thats how I know it too. The EU has managed to open the borders between north and south which I am hoping it could be seen as something positive and now they are used to it. That might be compromised now, but again we do not know what the negotiations are going to bring about. Its still all a closed box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Probably its a normal reaction and disappointment for not being re-elected after world war two. One would have thought that Churchill would have been voted in with a landslide right after being victorious after world war 11 but instead suffered a heavy defeat in the 1945 elections. It must have been a great disappointment, and people do say things like that in this situation. He was referring to the British electorate who anyway holds Winston Churchill in high regard.....but still voted him out
    do you know when and why Churchill said this <
    I think is a general truth, not less today than after WW II

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    Did you see this Video about ESM (European Stability Mechanism) here on Youtube ? If It's true, the ESM members seem to have a real oversized Power over the Peoples. No? It's look like they are above the laws? Did you see the Article 32 on their Immunities and Privileges (ESM treaty on line). Of course the Brits didn't sign it but Greece, France, Portugal, Italy, Spain etc... and Germany signed it...
    The link here for the ESM Youtube video explaining ESM, just to be fair and let people to have their own point of view.
    Last edited by Voyager; 27-06-16 at 16:59.

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    this is the comment of Die Welt :

    They see Brexit as a symptom of general distrust of the EU.
    They blaim the arrogance of Junker and the desastrous way Merkel handled the refugee crisis, without consulting any one else.

    Result is people voting for nationalistic parties like Orban in Hungary or populist leftists like Syriza in Greece or Podemos in Spain.

    http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentar...bgewaehlt.html

    In Italy the populist Beppe Grillo won.
    Now Renzi decided to organize a referendum in Italy about the implementation of institutionial reforms. He said he'll resign if the people vote against.
    There is a big chance the campaign will play on sentiments, just like the Brexit campaign. And Beppe Grillo will claim all Italian problems are due to the EU and the Euro currency.

    All over Europe there is discontent about politics talking to much and doing to little.

  22. #72
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    Don't any of you think it is unbelievable how can smart people, such as Maciamo and bicicleur, support a second referendum (which is anti-democratic in both theory and practice)? BTW, David Lammy can always go back to Guyana if he's not happy with the decision of 52% of the British people (after all, he could enjoy pseudo-democracy there).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this is the comment of Die Welt :

    They see Brexit as a symptom of general distrust of the EU.
    They blaim the arrogance of Junker and the desastrous way Merkel handled the refugee crisis, without consulting any one else.

    Result is people voting for nationalistic parties like Orban in Hungary or populist leftists like Syriza in Greece or Podemos in Spain.

    http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentar...bgewaehlt.html
    Very perceptive analysis, in my opinion.

    Faced with a flood of undocumented, un-screened refugees, the EU was unable to craft a unified response, and left each individual nation to deal with it alone. That just highlighted the fact that the political mechanisms don't exist for effective action.

    Economically, some have prospered, but for others it's a story of stagnation and high youth unemployment.

    Greater flexibility and creative thinking were necessary, and from what I can see the current leaders are incapable of it.

    They may think that by brutally punishing Britain they will prevent a mass exit, but I think it may backfire on them.

    As for having a second referendum or having Parliament negate it in some way, all I can say is you either have a democracy or you don't. If your leaders call for a referendum and then refuse to abide by it you can toss all of it out the window. What is the plan? Is it to keep on having votes until the leaders get the result they want? This is why you have to be careful and judicious in calling for referendums. You're opening Pandora's box.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...n-like-greece/


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    What if Conservative party will decide not to implement conclusion of referendum, not to leave, argumenting that this is not in line with their party vision and policy? They can declare that this matter will be left for next elected government/party to decide.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Don't any of you think it is unbelievable how can smart people, such as Maciamo and bicicleur, support a second referendum (which is anti-democratic in both theory and practice)? BTW, David Lammy can always go back to Guyana if he's not happy with the decision of 52% of the British people (after all, he could enjoy pseudo-democracy there).
    http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/rememb...endum-5963900/

    a referendum is not democracy, it's insanity

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