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Thread: Brexit: not inevitable

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    Those signatures are fake, they found 77000 fake signatures, as hackers claim responsibility for 'prank', another one of those terrorists's plan to destroy Europe.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-2...-fraud/7548284
    You are confusing two different petitions. The 77000 fake signatures were part of 4 million signatures for a second Brexit referendum, not for the petition to declare London independent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Despite the drama, I see a realistic opportunity that the divorce will eventually strengthen both EU and Britain. Berlin and Paris will become more important. Merkel already announced big increase of military budget. Given that Britain already has it's own strong military, the Brexit makes sense somewhat.
    But the Brexit drama will go on for yet a couple of months. The risks remain high. Bank crashes might happen for instance, Scotland might secede. The EURO and the arrogance of many leaders in Europe remain problems. Interesting times.
    Britain was a stone in the European shoes, anyway, on its path to a Federal Europe. The Brexit was mandatory. Britain would have never been a member of a federal construction of Europe anyway. And I am pretty sure the federal construction as the Emperor Carlos Magnus is in Junker 's mind. The French and German will be eaten at the federal sauce if no reaction. I propose Aix la Chapelle (Aachen) as the new capital if not already decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Britain was a stone in the European shoes, anyway, on its path to a Federal Europe. The Brexit was mandatory. Britain would have never been a member of a federal construction of Europe anyway. And I am pretty sure the federal construction as the Emperor Carlos Magnus is in Junker 's mind. The French and German will be eaten at the federal sauce if no reaction. I propose Aix la Chapelle (Aachen) as the new capital if not already decided.
    Indeed, more French and German dominance of the EU is to be expected, as the British counterweight has gone.
    This could stimulate the desire for the exit of other member states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    You are confusing two different petitions. The 77000 fake signatures were part of 4 million signatures for a second Brexit referendum, not for the petition to declare London independent.

    Sent from my LG-D620 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    I am not confused I knew the difference except I think that one is fake too, this is just another way to take advantage from the British people's misfortune and loot from them, making people more confused. This is no different from robbing an unfortunate fire victim. It shows how easy people can hack into systems and create a fake report these days. On the other hand, the 77000 fake signatures can also be a great way to purposefully discredit a petition. Now I am split in my opinion. It can go either way. I should have made myself clearer, I should not post in a hurry next time. 7451073_f260.jpg

    I've just noticed something, (if you take a good look at the right hand side where it says sign this petition)https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-...to-join-the-eu you can be from anywhere and sign up for this petition. If people from North Korea and Russia or the Middle East whoever Europe's enemy maybe sign this petition what is the difference between this one and the other petition that is fake? On the other hand there can be people who are friends with the British who think they are doing London a favor and signing up but this is not the world's decision, this is the British people's decision.
    Last edited by Minty; 29-06-16 at 11:41.



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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Indeed, more French and German dominance of the EU is to be expected, as the British counterweight has gone.
    This could stimulate the desire for the exit of other member states.
    I'm very sceptical on the prospects of a "domino effect" in other member states. The situation in the UK was unique in so far as that the Cameron administration offered the referendum in the first place - as of the moment I do not see this happening in any other EU state. Additionally, I suspect the chaos of the Brexit will serve as a deterrent to not try this in their countries. And I will disagree here with Elhorsto: I do not see how this will strengthen the UK if it falls apart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    I am not confused I knew the difference except I think that one is fake too, this is just another way to take advantage from the British people's misfortune and loot from them, making people more confused. This is no different from robbing an unfortunate fire victim. It shows how easy people can hack into systems and create a fake report these days. On the other hand, the 77000 fake signatures can also be a great way to purposefully discredit a petition. Now I am split in my opinion. It can go either way. I should have made myself clearer, I should not post in a hurry next time. 7451073_f260.jpg

    I've just noticed something, (if you take a good look at the right hand side where it says sign this petition)https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-...to-join-the-eu you can be from anywhere and sign up for this petition. If people from North Korea and Russia or the Middle East whoever Europe's enemy maybe sign this petition what is the difference between this one and the other petition that is fake? On the other hand there can be people who are friends with the British who think they are doing London a favor and signing up but this is not the world's decision, this is the British people's decision.
    The online petition and the British government website surely registers IP addresses and keep them for later records so as to know who wants London to split from England. Foreign IP addresses will be discarded for the petition's purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm very sceptical on the prospects of a "domino effect" in other member states. The situation in the UK was unique in so far as that the Cameron administration offered the referendum in the first place - as of the moment I do not see this happening in any other EU state. Additionally, I suspect the chaos of the Brexit will serve as a deterrent to not try this in their countries. And I will disagree here with Elhorsto: I do not see how this will strengthen the UK if it falls apart.
    I tend to agree that no one has learned about the EU as much as this event. In my opinion the anti EU sentiments would be on hold if not receded in the short term. England and Wales (Maybe Britain if it stays in union) are going to serve as a sort of pilot project for the future. How it does in the future its going to either trigger a collapse (or partial) of the EU as we know it or even integrated further depending on Britians failure or success. Even that is a broad statement as there are different interpretations of what is failure and what is success, but at the end of the day it will all be about economics. In a few years we are going to have a tried and tested model....the anti and pros will be strengthened or weakened accordingly.

    I think everybody is jumping into a quick conclusions. The UK has a sound industrial base with much innovations and ideas. It has provided many good business models and known to have maneuvered around difficult moments on numerous times. It also has (till today) closer ties with ex colonial countries, (such as India) maybe more then any other European country and 'maybe' being out of the EU can help having back direct negotiation lead (rather through the EU institutions). Lets not forget the 'special status' (I don't really know where this came from as its like a kind of USA obsession) US presidents speak about. Its still too early to declare disaster. Its going to be a long process, but in reality not one can predicted with any correctness. Having sad so, even this model will not mean it can be applied to all EU countries. Each case is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    The online petition and the British government website surely registers IP addresses and keep them for later records so as to know who wants London to split from England. Foreign IP addresses will be discarded for the petition's purpose.

    Sent from my LG-D620 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    If they can just do that why for the other petition they found so many frauds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm very sceptical on the prospects of a "domino effect" in other member states. The situation in the UK was unique in so far as that the Cameron administration offered the referendum in the first place - as of the moment I do not see this happening in any other EU state. Additionally, I suspect the chaos of the Brexit will serve as a deterrent to not try this in their countries. And I will disagree here with Elhorsto: I do not see how this will strengthen the UK if it falls apart.
    Anyway, I don't see how the other European Democracy Leaders could spare its own People from a referendum without loosing their credibility and their legitimacy. Cameron as a democracy leader asked his own people only because of that. I don't think you can drive a democracy or any cowntry without the People consent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    If they can just do that why for the other petition they found so many frauds?
    I would think they found they were fraudulent because of the IP addresses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Anyway, I don't see how the other European Democracy Leaders could spare its own People from a referendum without loosing their credibility and their legitimacy. Cameron as a democracy leader asked his own people only because of that. I don't think you can drive a democracy or any cowntry without the People consent.
    What incentive (or obligation, for that matter) would the Socialist Party of France have for initiating such a referendum? The situation for Cameron was very different in so far as that for the Tories, the referendum on the UK's withdrawal from the EU was an election promise. In so far, you could say that they were obligated to hold the referendum - even if the re-negotiations with the European Union that the British government made in the preceding months seem quite superfluous now.

    In my opinion, short of a Front National victory in the presidential elections next year, I do not see a French exit referendum occuring in the first place, let alone succeeding. Bear in mind that the outcome of the Brexit referendum surprised even its initiators and proponents, and was indeed demographically unlikely.
    Last edited by Taranis; 29-06-16 at 20:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    I would think they found they were fraudulent because of the IP addresses.

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    You can get British citizens signing the petition from outside the UK, by using a public computer or a friend's computer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Anyway, I don't see how the other European Democracy Leaders could spare its own People from a referendum without loosing their credibility and their legitimacy. Cameron as a democracy leader asked his own people only because of that. I don't think you can drive a democracy or any cowntry without the People consent.
    There are plenty of issues that could be subjected t referendums. However referendums are costly, which is why they are very rare. Switzerland has a longer tradition of holding referendums on key issues, maybe because it can also afford them more easily. But even though they are still exceptional events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    You can get British citizens signing the petition from outside the UK, by using a public computer or a friend's computer.
    The fraudulent signatures were probably all from the same IP address or a few addresses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Anyway, I don't see how the other European Democracy Leaders could spare its own People from a referendum without loosing their credibility and their legitimacy. Cameron as a democracy leader asked his own people only because of that. I don't think you can drive a democracy or any cowntry without the People consent.
    Cameron was elected, the EU leaders are not.
    That being said, referenda are stupid.
    Don't overestimate the voters judgement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Cameron was elected, the EU leaders are not.
    That being said, referenda are stupid.
    Don't overestimate the voters judgement.
    Referendums are good for simple issues that affect only people's lifestyle directly without political or economic consequences. It's good to ask if people want to have ID cards or allow gay marriage, but not extremely complex issues with countless ramifications like leaving the EU. Only experts can understand the full economic and social consequences of such a radical change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    Referendums are good for simple issues that affect only people's lifestyle directly without political or economic consequences. It's good to ask if people want to have ID cards or allow gay marriage, but not extremely complex issues with countless ramifications like leaving the EU. Only experts can understand the full economic and social consequences of such a radical change.
    Concerning Economy, most of the people balance their own budget, do business much better than any politics in charge apparently. I believe that any Human being is perfectly able to judge where is his own interest and has real capacities to assess complex situations otherwise our complex society simply won't work with only dumb peoples. A referendum is the right stuff for debatting and explanations through different medias and let people judging by themself. No debate is the demonstration that the political powers in place feared to be wrong, then this is the best demonstration that they are wrong, it's a weakness and a dead end for the power in place. Cameron as a polical Leader kew that perfectly well , so the referendum.
    Last edited by Voyager; 29-06-16 at 19:23.

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    why would any country in the EU listen to another EU country's leader ( Merkel) to dictate the terms of what your country needs?. Merkel is irrational as Putin is............would you let Putin dictate terms to you ? ( you meaning England )

    History will eventually show that Merkel has destroyed the foundation of the EU .
    The beginning of the end of the EU was when it forced re-vote for the Irish when the Irish went against the EU .............does anyone remember.!
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    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    Referendums are good for simple issues that affect only people's lifestyle directly without political or economic consequences. It's good to ask if people want to have ID cards or allow gay marriage, but not extremely complex issues with countless ramifications like leaving the EU. Only experts can understand the full economic and social consequences of such a radical change.

    Referendum is the ultimate act of peoples will,
    it is above kings, presidents, prime ministers,
    it is the will of people,

    referendum is pure democracy,
    and democracy is a hard and cruel system.
    peoples will is above everything,

    THERE IS NO PURE DEMOCRACY, NEITHER A CONSTITUTION CHARTA is well founded or has power, IF NOT APROVED BY REFERENDUM.
    although at modern times, some judges or some political parties, try to reject them,

    the system of Greece from kingdom to democracy at 1970's was done with a referendum,
    even today nobody say something about that, cause was peoples will,
    but all say that Greece enter EU or NATO by political actions without asking the people, cause was not peoples will aproved by a referendum.
    same to most EU countries,
    A referendum is undeniable, and not to be arqued for one generation (about 27 years)
    only after a generation can be asked again the same question,
    it is not a statistical exit poll neither a life style like or not like,
    IT IS THE STRONGEST ACT OF PURE HARD DEMOCRACY,

    and although Plato many times spoke about δημοκρατια των αριστων, democracy of excellent people, nobody listen to him,
    even at oligarchy of Sparta the apella, and at Makedonian kingdom the gatherings, democratical desicions were always above, even above Gods.
    only Alexander dare once not hear, and he was abbandon and humiliated at next battle.

    it is the ultimate way to keep your shelf in the 'team', respect your 'team', show your character and your generation, and prove that you are equal or better than your ancestors,
    no matter if you are on the winners or on the losers side, the desicion is done, and must be respected,
    it shows how descent noble and brave you are to serve the desicion of many,
    although that does not mean that you may not have your ideas and speak academically about the oposite,
    but you must obey the ultimate law of human society.

    in fact politicians as the year before at Greece, many time ridicule the referendum with stupid questions,
    but in the clear question that was at UK this time, and the so much media information, I think UK has given a lesson of pure democracy to all the world,

    besides experts many times look their own profit, and not citizens profit,
    many books were written about this, but Uberto Eco's 'the name of the rose' shows what experts many time think and understand.
    and many times I wonder which are the limits of Democracy of excellent(experts) and Dictatorship of excellent(experts)
    only rotten societies can not vote correct, and I do not believe UK is one of them. cause corruption and rust of society is an effect of rotten politicians, and I do not think UK is so much rotten,
    or it was? that I can not tell, I only believe that UK citizens voice has spoke, and must be respected, instead of calling these people imbeciles,
    even if brexit party took 48% we should also worry, cause 48% imbeciles means the world is turning in to stupidity,
    and modern way of life creates HOMO IMBECILUS, instead of extra sapiens if we follow the principle that the ones who do not hear 'experts' are impecilles',
    and their vote is just a crup. not to be taken serious.
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    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    The fraudulent signatures were probably all from the same IP address or a few addresses.

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    Apparently, petitioning Mayor of London Sadiq Khan to declare London independent from the UK and apply to join the EU can be signed by people all over the world, if you take a look at the right hand side of the website, you can even choose which country you are from. There is no where on the website that says you need to indicate you are British citizen or not. Then there is a section where you can say why you are signing this petition, but that is optional. You can even tick the option whether you want to share this with your friends on facebook. Hence, this petition is not valid!
    Last edited by Minty; 30-06-16 at 03:25.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Referendum is the ultimate act of peoples will,
    it is above kings, presidents, prime ministers,
    it is the will of people,

    referendum is pure democracy,
    and democracy is a hard and cruel system.
    peoples will is above everything,

    THERE IS NO PURE DEMOCRACY, NEITHER A CONSTITUTION CHARTA is well founded or has power, IF NOT APROVED BY REFERENDUM.
    although at modern times, some judges or some political parties, try to reject them,

    the system of Greece from kingdom to democracy at 1970's was done with a referendum,
    even today nobody say something about that, cause was peoples will,
    but all say that Greece enter EU or NATO by political actions without asking the people, cause was not peoples will aproved by a referendum.
    same to most EU countries,
    A referendum is undeniable, and not to be arqued for one generation (about 27 years)
    only after a generation can be asked again the same question,
    it is not a statistical exit poll neither a life style like or not like,
    IT IS THE STRONGEST ACT OF PURE HARD DEMOCRACY,

    and although Plato many times spoke about δημοκρατια των αριστων, democracy of excellent people, nobody listen to him,
    even at oligarchy of Sparta the apella, and at Makedonian kingdom the gatherings, democratical desicions were always above, even above Gods.
    only Alexander dare once not hear, and he was abbandon and humiliated at next battle.

    it is the ultimate way to keep your shelf in the 'team', respect your 'team', show your character and your generation, and prove that you are equal or better than your ancestors,
    no matter if you are on the winners or on the losers side, the desicion is done, and must be respected,
    it shows how descent noble and brave you are to serve the desicion of many,
    although that does not mean that you may not have your ideas and speak academically about the oposite,
    but you must obey the ultimate law of human society.

    in fact politicians as the year before at Greece, many time ridicule the referendum with stupid questions,
    but in the clear question that was at UK this time, and the so much media information, I think UK has given a lesson of pure democracy to all the world,

    besides experts many times look their own profit, and not citizens profit,
    many books were written about this, but Uberto Eco's 'the name of the rose' shows what experts many time think and understand.
    and many times I wonder which are the limits of Democracy of excellent(experts) and Dictatorship of excellent(experts)
    only rotten societies can not vote correct, and I do not believe UK is one of them. cause corruption and rust of society is an effect of rotten politicians, and I do not think UK is so much rotten,
    or it was? that I can not tell, I only believe that UK citizens voice has spoke, and must be respected, instead of calling these people imbeciles,
    even if brexit party took 48% we should also worry, cause 48% imbeciles means the world is turning in to stupidity,
    and modern way of life creates HOMO IMBECILUS, instead of extra sapiens if we follow the principle that the ones who do not hear 'experts' are impecilles',
    and their vote is just a crup. not to be taken serious.
    Many Swiss people have thought or discussed about the idea of direct democracy or pure democracy. It is a concept that many people hold dear but in limitation. If a country decided to replace parliaments by pure democracy by holding referendums every day online for every political issue, using an official ID card to prevent fraudulent votes, that country would quickly fall into chaos. It would be like letting children or a bunch of monkeys taking the reins of the country. Many politicians are unknowledgeable but in many efficiently run countries they have teams of experts to advise them.

    I don't think that abortion would have been legalized in any country if medical experts had not first said that it was safe until the 3rd month of pregnancy. Without experts people follow religions and traditions and social progress cannot happen.

    Sent from my LG-D620 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Indeed, more French and German dominance of the EU is to be expected, as the British counterweight has gone.
    This could stimulate the desire for the exit of other member states.
    That's right, although on the other side it also stimulates the tightening of the residual EU regime, which might strengthen EU in the short term. In any case both scenarios will not encourage approximation between EU nations. Probably in the very long term this will end badly for the EU, or EU will eventually consist of two or three big member states with one single strong government. Meanwhile I think that Britain will be finally better off than the EU in the long term, depending on what remains and what is worth to be called "EU".
    After Britain, today the EU was downgraded by S&P.

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    damn it kicks me off,
    I can write a full text.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    That's right, although on the other side it also stimulates the tightening of the residual EU regime, which might strengthen EU in the short term. In any case both scenarios will not encourage approximation between EU nations. Probably in the very long term this will end badly for the EU, or EU will eventually consist of two or three big member states with one single strong government. Meanwhile I think that Britain will be finally better off than the EU in the long term, depending on what remains and what is worth to be called "EU".
    After Britain, today the EU was downgraded by S&P.
    The rerunning of elections in Austria will now serve as a barometer to were things are heading. If Norbert Hoffer manages to win with a clear mandate after the brexit experience then the real trouble is going to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    Many Swiss people have thought or discussed about the idea of direct democracy or pure democracy. It is a concept that many people hold dear but in limitation. If a country decided to replace parliaments by pure democracy by holding referendums every day online for every political issue, using an official ID card to prevent fraudulent votes, that country would quickly fall into chaos. It would be like letting children or a bunch of monkeys taking the reins of the country. Many politicians are unknowledgeable but in many efficiently run countries they have teams of experts to advise them.

    I don't think that abortion would have been legalized in any country if medical experts had not first said that it was safe until the 3rd month of pregnancy. Without experts people follow religions and traditions and social progress cannot happen.
    what expert on abortion?

    abortion was known from antique, remember silphium?

    It was Lenin who first legalize it to show women that is with them, and welcome them to commustic ideas
    It needed 53 years to reach USA and Texas to pass as law the 3 trimesters
    1 the woman's choice
    2 the doctors choice, (possibly lethal pregnacy)
    3 not legal cause kills a formed human being,

    Abortion is a diplomacy of judges and law to suit both womn's rights and religion-state,
    at medieval times how many women choose abortion in order to avoid an unwanted pregnacy, for example from rape etc etc

    ABORTION LEGALIZED AS THE FIRST DEMAND of women sufrage movements at USSR and much later at USA,
    It was the legalization of abortion that started a new industry of family sex/reproduction programming and created the experts, not the oposite
    and do you remember the 'experts' that suggested the spiaral-coil or the diaphragm, how many women suffered from those 'experts'?
    at 1900 the experts suggested mercury for curing syphilis, no matter the reactions of mercury, today experts do they also suggest such?
    so
    EXPERTS OF BREXIT TOMOROW MIGHT BE CONSIDERED AS WISE ONES, OR AS CLOWNS according the results,
    don't rush to make them experts, most of them are just 'golden boys', parrots of another one voice-will
    the experts suggested to use even planes to spread the DDT, with a huge enviromental disaster, found even at polar bears milk, which might even pass to humans,
    Today is Forbiden, so do you believe that the experts of 1950's can be considered today as experts?
    come on, just Golden boys with high publicity that suggest the easy way solution.

    besides who expert is correct at a dilemma? the Yes one or the No one?
    they are both experts.


    I do not know about Swiss and referendums, but I know that in Denmark and Iceland are often, at least much often than in my country,

    PS
    If Swiss is about a referendum of joining EU for example,
    Do you believe that you will not find experts that say no? or experts that say Yes?
    so who is the expert then? The YES one? or the NO one?
    then comes your power, your opinion-vote. the referendum,

    PS2
    expert = the one who is experienced with a working prosses, a model, a know how,
    Do we have experience with a country leaving the EU? NO
    then we have no experts, only modern Sibyllas or Cassandras etc etc.
    since we have no experience, all these are just like modern prophets
    It is like the court of Troy when show Myceneans outside the city.
    No one is expert, but all want to say something for publicity, and some like to be prophets,or prognosticators, or clairvoyants to get the glory tomorrow

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