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Thread: Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Hello, I'm an italian guy living in France, my name is patrizio, I had previously lived in the UK, I don't have a university degree, I have just received my genographic project results and opened two accounts, on on anthrogenica where I posted a thread by the same title and one here. I'm just making a fool of myself trying to learn something. By the way, the scientific article I read were written by journalists on papers like the guardian, el pais, il corriere della sera or le monde. Anyway, your post was the most useful for an ignorant like me. I'll shut up until I know more. This thread may be useful for many italians. Bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, I'm an italian guy living in France, my name is patrizio, I had previously lived in the UK, I don't have a university degree, I have just received my genographic project results and opened two accounts, on on anthrogenica where I posted a thread by the same title and one here. I'm just making a fool of myself trying to learn something. By the way, the scientific article I read were written by journalists on papers like the guardian, el pais, il corriere della sera or le monde. Anyway, your post was the most useful for an ignorant like me. I'll shut up until I know more. This thread may be useful for many italians. Bye
    Welcome! Please do stay and learn more. Not having a university degree isn't a problem as long as you keep learning!

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    Thank you to anyone for your help. I had a look back along this thread and saw that when I mentioned a chart appearing on Eupedia instead of writing "I don't know whether the chart is reliable" (because it was taken from some source) i wrote "I found this on Eupedia, I don't know whether is reliable". I do apologize to anyone, it was just a stupid mistake, perhaps that's why I was taken for a *****.

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    Il progetto di Ethnopedia amatoriale ma fatto in maniera molto accurata.
    Ethnopedia's project is amatorial but it's quite accurate.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Not so much because no author actually checked the origins of those samples. Moreover for several regions there are only few samples (3-4).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vukodav View Post
    Not so much because no author actually checked the origins of those samples. Moreover for several regions there are only few samples (3-4).
    Ethnopedia checked the origins of all samples (more than 600) and stored every single surname, haplogroup, deepest subclade known and grandfather's place of birth (due to the recent migration of southerners in north Italy).
    Regions which have less than 20 samples such as Valle d'Aosta are not shown in the maps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
    Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

    http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista..../genitaly.html

    Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

    In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

    In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?

    I'm just fan of Ethnopedia page on Facebook but i know one of the admins. I'll ask to him.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

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    If you don't mind my asking, how did you get access to the registry records? In my experience they're never digitized or on line. It would be very good for Italians of the diaspora if they've starting to do that.

    Using the parish records can take you very far back indeed, all the way to the time of the Council of Trent or, in some places, even further. However, it can jump from parish to parish, as I'm sure you know, since marriages are usually registered in the church of the bride. None of it is computerized, to my knowledge, so I'm afraid tracing your family tree back in time won't be able to be done with a letter to the parish priest of one parish. If you really want it done, you'll have to spend your vacations in Italy doing it.

    Still, I don't think that this would answer your ultimate question since you're interested in very ancient origins. As some members have already told you, without much more ancient dna, very refined by sub-clade, there are lots of possibilities.

    Just parenthetically, yes, port cities have always been more cosmopolitan. However, eastern Liguria, which has always been a trading center, has very little J1. The same applies to Venezia, the biggest port on the Adriatic. On the other hand, you have a bit in the mountains of Piemonte, and inland places in the Balkans and even up toward central Europe. Or, look at E-V13. There's a lot, relatively speaking, in the Tirol and southern Germany. Y dna is very subject to founder effect and drift. Sometimes, one line just gets lucky.

    Or, look at the recent results from the ancient dna from Britain, discussed on a thread on this Board.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...629#post474629

    We have a yDna J2 all the way in York who "fits" somewhere south of modern Palestinians and Jordanians and north of Saudis autosomally. (West African SSA and perhaps some SA seems to have changed the picture in the Middle East since his time) Yet I'm sure that J2 British men, if some can be found who match him, will be indistinguishable from other Brits.

    I know some men are very attached indeed to their yDna, but it's only one among many ancestors. We have a J2 mesolithic Karelian, a J2 from the mid-to-late Neolithic, J2's from the Bronze Age and on and on, and they are, or will be found to be, different autosomally.

    We clearly have more J2 and J1 in Italy (in all of Southern Europe, actually). Without detailed sub-clade information from ancient dna, however, we can't know to which migration to assign it and how much autosomal impact each wave might have had. After all, both Neolithic and post Neolithic migrants from the southeast or Anatolia would have carried Ancient Anatolian farmer dna, and at some point CHG ancestry. It's going to be tricky.
    They're going to have to compare samples both pre-and-post every major wave of migration. That's going to be difficult in some eras because some cultures in Italy practiced cremation. Then, people buried in elite burials might have been very different from the commoners.

    Even getting a good sample is going to be difficult. The bones in museums have been handled so often, for so many centuries, that they're very contaminated. Also, not many of them are complete skulls, and from the information provided by the authors of the British study, the results are most accurate if taken from the petrous bone behind the ear, or lacking that, the teeth. It's no coincidence that much of this very good dna we're seeing tested is from "fresh" finds.

    Assigning "native" versus "foreign" status is also going to be difficult in an era like the Roman one, for example, since both occupied various positions on the social scale, and it seems that the original "Anatolian farmer" and MN people may have survived much better in southern Europe.

    Some abstracts indicate there's going to be a lot of results being announced relatively soon. I'm personally very impatient to get results, particularly from any Etruscan or Roman remains. I owe it to my father to try to prove we're related to them!

    I just hope the authors used the latest tools, like the ones used by the Schiffels team. Unfortunately, I think the Reich lab is busy with other things.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

    In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?
    25% of the men with J1 didn't give their clade because they don't know it.
    Among the 75% of the men which gave their clades, 88% has P58 or its downstream subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.
    online registry records for italy go back to 1805 ...........the veneto and friuli have the missing "austrian period" , but I got my "missing" period in 3 days for free from the comune.

    but if your not from these areas you should have free access until 1805 .....and with some skill go further back
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    online registry records for italy go back to 1805 ...........the veneto and friuli have the missing "austrian period" , but I got my "missing" period in 3 days for free from the comune.

    but if your not from these areas you should have free access until 1805 .....and with some skill go further back
    That's incorrect. It very much depends on the region. The Veneto is not all of Italy.


    Ed. I should qualify that. My own tree was done in Italy a number of years ago by a great uncle. However, from what many Italian-Americans tell me, their town's records are only available online if the Mormon church or some private individual scanned them and put them online.

    I'm going to check my own area when I have time and see if it's gone on line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.
    Post me privately on the region you are from in Italy and the period in time you require and I will send you the free online link to your records from that region

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    Some americans from Serra San Quirico (AN) posted microfilms of the registry office of the village (Anagrafe). The dates go back to 1866. The registy office of the province of Ancona has documents back to the mid 19th. They're not useful because I know ancestors up to the early 19th or the end of the 18th. Parishes in that area may have documents until the 16th. I'm waiting for an answer from the parish, if there's one. The rest, yes, it is wishful thinking. I'm just having a look at both sides, last name and y chromosome. I'm just one of those cooks, nurses or sales administrators who had a dna test. We may be quite anal. If, as you say there's going to be many developments, I look forward to hearing some news.

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    I forgot to say that the data was on Family Search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    I forgot to say that the data was on Family Search.
    I privately sent you the 1805 to 1815 Ancona records ( a link ).............others will follow

    you need to read oldish Italian and understand the meaning of some words in reference to italian trees

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    many thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    many thanks
    I just sent you a link privately of registry records online for your specific area of Ancona.....Serra San Quirico

    enjoy

    I can help with the meaning of some words like fu, quondam etc etc

    sorry that some people here try to prevent me from helping people by saying I "bullsit" to things I say.

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    I'm browsing the birth certificates. Very, painfully interesting. This site has got more stuff than Family Search. Family Search has got more data from Americans of Italian origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    I'm browsing the birth certificates. Very, painfully interesting. This site has got more stuff than Family Search. Family Search has got more data from Americans of Italian origins.
    ok

    if you find a "detto" next to your surname.....it would be important to find if it is another surname or a nickname

    example

    giovanni angeli detto piotto ..........this is a nickname in regards to piotto, because a piotto is a turkey in venetian, maybe he raised turkeys .........if it said
    giovanni angeli detto morosin ......then morosin is a known surname,............so this person took his mothers maidenname of morosin to distinguish him from other angeli families in his town.
    This "detto" names are accepted in registry documents an a "real" name until either he leaves the town or the other angeli families die off

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    Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

    I've been researching my haplogroup which is J1. I was surprised to learn I was J1 since J2 is much more common amongst Southern Europeans even though J1 is common in some areas of Southern Europe. I'm European and Italian on my fathers side and was thinking more about it. I joined a project on FTDNA for Italians who also scored J1 and I got "L858+ (positive) and L829+ (Positive). So I went to the Eupedia J1 Phylogenic Tree and see that L858 Started in the Levant and that L829 branched off into a European and Middle Eastern version. Since I'm Italian, I obviously have the European version/subclade.

    This would mean that my ancestors started out in the Fertile Crescent in the Levant near Mesopotamia and instead of migrating southward into Arabia like modern J1, it instead went to Europe/Italy. My ancestors weren't Jewish since I didn't score positive for the Jewish subclade so they must've been Christians of some sort who spoke a Semitic language at the time.

    How it got there I don't know but I had some realizations.

    The term "Semitic" has nothing to do with genetics. It's just a language. "Semitic people" don't even exist. It's just a language grouping for some West Asian countries. If my ancestors spoke a different language they wouldn't be "Semitic" and they even might've spoken a different language. I don't know.

    Semitic languages could've been spoken by the Neolithic Farmers who carried J2 as well correct? Since Mesopotamia and the Levant are right beside each-other and are apart of the same area.

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    Hello MINDustry, here is some interesting reading for you:-

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-my-haplogroup
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

    what counts really is your autosmal as your father paternal line is only a small part of who you are. J1 is just an ingredient in the minestrone. Dont forget that IJ were one haplogroup some 30,000 years ago or more. I is what you find mostly in the Balkans and Scandinavia so there is nothing that straight forward about genetics. The human journey is very long and current terminologies are pretty recent compared to the human migration story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Hello MINDustry, here is some interesting reading for you:-

    what counts really is your autosmal as your father paternal line is only a small part of who you are. J1 is just an ingredient in the minestrone. Dont forget that IJ were one haplogroup some 30,000 years ago or more. I is what you find mostly in the Balkans and Scandinavia so there is nothing that straight forward about genetics. The human journey is very long and current terminologies are pretty recent compared to the human migration story.
    Well, J1 means my fathers line came from the Middle East correct? Not much different from other Europeans. Anything in the "J" haplogroup means Near Eastern origin.

    According to the Wikipedia article, J1 started in the Zagros Mountains in Turkey and moved southward where it spread to the Levant and Arabian Peninsula.

    What's the difference between J1 and J2? The answer is not much. They both came from the Middle East and they both had contact with Semitic speaking peoples in the Levant at one point. The only difference is that one stayed in Mesopotamia for longer while the other went Westward to the Levant.

    The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as "Semitic people". It's not an ethnicity. Semitic is a language group. If a Semitic person decided to speak a different language they would cease to be a Semitic person and instead be something else. They are Middle Eastern people. The Assyrians, Lebanese, Israelis, and the Ancient Mesopotamians. They are the exact same people DNA wise is my point. They all come from the Middle East.

    I took my Autosomal results and they came out as they would for anybody with a mix of Southern European and Northern European ancestry. I think I only scored something like 3.20% Middle Eastern on one of the Autosomal calculators. 23andme only gave me 0.1% Middle Eastern and North African which is laughable. I thought as an Italian I'd have MUCH more than that, but when I viewed the results of White Americans almost 90% scored something in a foreign category whether it was Sub Saharan African, Native American, MENA, etc.

    Apparently Asehkenazi is listed under European. The Conservative Estimate for my Ashkenazi was 0.2% at a 95% confidence rate but jumped up to 3.4% at a 75% confidence rate. I asked a geneticist and he said to trust the Conservative estimate more than the Original or Speculative.

    I've read all of those links. Thanks.

  25. #50
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    J1 has been found in Caucasus in Paleolithic. It isn't logical to call it Semitic.

    Epigravettian Georgia Satsurblia cave M 13,380-13,130 cal BP 1,460,368 J1 Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-. K3 Mutations reported here are with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, [235G not found], 247G, 560T, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 1097T, 1811G, 2758G, 2885T, 3480G, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 6027T, 7146A, 7256C, 7498A, 7521G, 7657C, [8188G not found], 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9055A, 9540T, 9698C, [9852T not found], 10398A, 10550G, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11299C, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14167T, 14198A, 14212C, 14798C, 15924G, [16093C not found], 16129G, 16148T, [16153A not found], 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16224C, 16230A, 16278C Jones 2015;Fu 2016; Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr

    Epigravettian Georgia Satsurblia cave M 13,380-13,130 cal BP 1,460,368 J1 Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-. K3 Mutations reported here are with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, [235G not found], 247G, 560T, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 1097T, 1811G, 2758G, 2885T, 3480G, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 6027T, 7146A, 7256C, 7498A, 7521G, 7657C, [8188G not found], 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9055A, 9540T, 9698C, [9852T not found], 10398A, 10550G, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11299C, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14167T, 14198A, 14212C, 14798C, 15924G, [16093C not found], 16129G, 16148T, [16153A not found], 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16224C, 16230A, 16278C Jones 2015;Fu 2016; Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr

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