Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

I forgot to say that the data was on Family Search.

I privately sent you the 1805 to 1815 Ancona records ( a link ).............others will follow

you need to read oldish Italian and understand the meaning of some words in reference to italian trees
 
many thanks

I just sent you a link privately of registry records online for your specific area of Ancona.....Serra San Quirico

enjoy

I can help with the meaning of some words like fu, quondam etc etc

sorry that some people here try to prevent me from helping people by saying I "bullsit" to things I say.(y)
 
I'm browsing the birth certificates. Very, painfully interesting. This site has got more stuff than Family Search. Family Search has got more data from Americans of Italian origins.
 
I'm browsing the birth certificates. Very, painfully interesting. This site has got more stuff than Family Search. Family Search has got more data from Americans of Italian origins.

ok

if you find a "detto" next to your surname.....it would be important to find if it is another surname or a nickname

example

giovanni angeli detto piotto ..........this is a nickname in regards to piotto, because a piotto is a turkey in venetian, maybe he raised turkeys .........if it said
giovanni angeli detto morosin ......then morosin is a known surname,............so this person took his mothers maidenname of morosin to distinguish him from other angeli families in his town.
This "detto" names are accepted in registry documents an a "real" name until either he leaves the town or the other angeli families die off
 
I've been researching my haplogroup which is J1. I was surprised to learn I was J1 since J2 is much more common amongst Southern Europeans even though J1 is common in some areas of Southern Europe. I'm European and Italian on my fathers side and was thinking more about it. I joined a project on FTDNA for Italians who also scored J1 and I got "L858+ (positive) and L829+ (Positive). So I went to the Eupedia J1 Phylogenic Tree and see that L858 Started in the Levant and that L829 branched off into a European and Middle Eastern version. Since I'm Italian, I obviously have the European version/subclade.

This would mean that my ancestors started out in the Fertile Crescent in the Levant near Mesopotamia and instead of migrating southward into Arabia like modern J1, it instead went to Europe/Italy. My ancestors weren't Jewish since I didn't score positive for the Jewish subclade so they must've been Christians of some sort who spoke a Semitic language at the time.

How it got there I don't know but I had some realizations.

The term "Semitic" has nothing to do with genetics. It's just a language. "Semitic people" don't even exist. It's just a language grouping for some West Asian countries. If my ancestors spoke a different language they wouldn't be "Semitic" and they even might've spoken a different language. I don't know.

Semitic languages could've been spoken by the Neolithic Farmers who carried J2 as well correct? Since Mesopotamia and the Levant are right beside each-other and are apart of the same area.
 
Hello MINDustry, here is some interesting reading for you:-

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31873-italian-j1-questions-about-my-haplogroup
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

what counts really is your autosmal as your father paternal line is only a small part of who you are. J1 is just an ingredient in the minestrone. Dont forget that IJ were one haplogroup some 30,000 years ago or more. I is what you find mostly in the Balkans and Scandinavia so there is nothing that straight forward about genetics. The human journey is very long and current terminologies are pretty recent compared to the human migration story.
 
Hello MINDustry, here is some interesting reading for you:-

what counts really is your autosmal as your father paternal line is only a small part of who you are. J1 is just an ingredient in the minestrone. Dont forget that IJ were one haplogroup some 30,000 years ago or more. I is what you find mostly in the Balkans and Scandinavia so there is nothing that straight forward about genetics. The human journey is very long and current terminologies are pretty recent compared to the human migration story.

Well, J1 means my fathers line came from the Middle East correct? Not much different from other Europeans. Anything in the "J" haplogroup means Near Eastern origin.

According to the Wikipedia article, J1 started in the Zagros Mountains in Turkey and moved southward where it spread to the Levant and Arabian Peninsula.

What's the difference between J1 and J2? The answer is not much. They both came from the Middle East and they both had contact with Semitic speaking peoples in the Levant at one point. The only difference is that one stayed in Mesopotamia for longer while the other went Westward to the Levant.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as "Semitic people". It's not an ethnicity. Semitic is a language group. If a Semitic person decided to speak a different language they would cease to be a Semitic person and instead be something else. They are Middle Eastern people. The Assyrians, Lebanese, Israelis, and the Ancient Mesopotamians. They are the exact same people DNA wise is my point. They all come from the Middle East.

I took my Autosomal results and they came out as they would for anybody with a mix of Southern European and Northern European ancestry. I think I only scored something like 3.20% Middle Eastern on one of the Autosomal calculators. 23andme only gave me 0.1% Middle Eastern and North African which is laughable. I thought as an Italian I'd have MUCH more than that, but when I viewed the results of White Americans almost 90% scored something in a foreign category whether it was Sub Saharan African, Native American, MENA, etc.

Apparently Asehkenazi is listed under European. The Conservative Estimate for my Ashkenazi was 0.2% at a 95% confidence rate but jumped up to 3.4% at a 75% confidence rate. I asked a geneticist and he said to trust the Conservative estimate more than the Original or Speculative.

I've read all of those links. Thanks.
 
J1 has been found in Caucasus in Paleolithic. It isn't logical to call it Semitic.

EpigravettianGeorgiaSatsurblia caveM13,380-13,130 cal BP1,460,368J1Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-.K3Mutations reported here are with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, [235G not found], 247G, 560T, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 1097T, 1811G, 2758G, 2885T, 3480G, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 6027T, 7146A, 7256C, 7498A, 7521G, 7657C, [8188G not found], 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9055A, 9540T, 9698C, [9852T not found], 10398A, 10550G, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11299C, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14167T, 14198A, 14212C, 14798C, 15924G, [16093C not found], 16129G, 16148T, [16153A not found], 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16224C, 16230A, 16278CJones 2015;Fu 2016; Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr

EpigravettianGeorgiaSatsurblia caveM13,380-13,130 cal BP1,460,368J1Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-.K3Mutations reported here are with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, [235G not found], 247G, 560T, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 1097T, 1811G, 2758G, 2885T, 3480G, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 6027T, 7146A, 7256C, 7498A, 7521G, 7657C, [8188G not found], 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9055A, 9540T, 9698C, [9852T not found], 10398A, 10550G, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11299C, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14167T, 14198A, 14212C, 14798C, 15924G, [16093C not found], 16129G, 16148T, [16153A not found], 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16224C, 16230A, 16278CJones 2015;Fu 2016; Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr
 
Well, J1 means my fathers line came from the Middle East correct? Not much different from other Europeans. Anything in the "J" haplogroup means Near Eastern origin.

According to the Wikipedia article, J1 started in the Zagros Mountains in Turkey and moved southward where it spread to the Levant and Arabian Peninsula.

What's the difference between J1 and J2? The answer is not much. They both came from the Middle East and they both had contact with Semitic speaking peoples in the Levant at one point. The only difference is that one stayed in Mesopotamia for longer while the other went Westward to the Levant.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as "Semitic people". It's not an ethnicity. Semitic is a language group. If a Semitic person decided to speak a different language they would cease to be a Semitic person and instead be something else. They are Middle Eastern people. The Assyrians, Lebanese, Israelis, and the Ancient Mesopotamians. They are the exact same people DNA wise is my point. They all come from the Middle East.

I took my Autosomal results and they came out as they would for anybody with a mix of Southern European and Northern European ancestry. I think I only scored something like 3.20% Middle Eastern on one of the Autosomal calculators. 23andme only gave me 0.1% Middle Eastern and North African which is laughable. I thought as an Italian I'd have MUCH more than that, but when I viewed the results of White Americans almost 90% scored something in a foreign category whether it was Sub Saharan African, Native American, MENA, etc.

Apparently Asehkenazi is listed under European. The Conservative Estimate for my Ashkenazi was 0.2% at a 95% confidence rate but jumped up to 3.4% at a 75% confidence rate. I asked a geneticist and he said to trust the Conservative estimate more than the Original or Speculative.


You would need to check the history of geographical area in Italy. J1 can be anything from recent 'Moorish' Jewish converts to older Phoenician or way back Neolithic. Paper trail helps sometimes but I don't think its enough.

J2 is quite old 22,000 ybp and it seems to have a different story and migration more connected to Anatolia Caucasus and Iran. Its much more common in the South of Europe and if not mistaken some ancient samples have already been found in Europe. Languages are ambiguous and not really anything to go with. They are learned and not inate, and often change according to who is dominating and Economical success of the particular group. We have many instances where Languages are swapped even in recent history.

I've read all of those links. Thanks.

Most welcome
 
You would need to check the history of geographical area in Italy. J1 can be anything from recent 'Moorish' Jewish converts to older Phoenician or way back Neolithic. Paper trail helps sometimes but I don't think its enough.

J2 is quite old 22,000 ybp and it seems to have a different story and migration more connected to Anatolia Caucasus and Iran. Its much more common in the South of Europe and if not mistaken some ancient samples have already been found in Europe. Languages are ambiguous and not really anything to go with. They are learned and not inate, and often change according to who is dominating and Economical success of the particular group. We have many instances where Languages are swapped even in recent history.



Most welcome
I don't think it's Moorish/Jewish since those were mostly in Iberia (Spain and Portugal), not Central Italy. I think that's the least likely possibility.. It could be Phoenician/Greek or Neolithic. How would I get a paper trail started? Maybe I'll never know the answer.

Jews and Phoenicians carried haplogroup J2 as well. Both of these Y-lines came into contact with Semitic speaking peoples since they are from the Middle East and had to go through the Levant to get to the Mediterranean.

J1 is old as well at about 20,000 years old and started near Lake Van in Anatolia. From there it migrated to the Levant and then to Southern Europe via the Mediterranean where it can be found up to 10-20% in some parts of Southern Europe like Greece, Malta, and Sicily. At least from what I've read.

J1 and J2 both helped spread Neolithic farming.

My ancestors from my fathers side in Italy are from Marche. Maybe you can help me check.
 
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I would not be surprised to see either haplogroup in Southern/Mediterranean Europe. They may have been there before R1b.
 
I would not be surprised to see either haplogroup in Southern/Mediterranean Europe. They may have been there before R1b.
To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.
 
Why is J1 not considered a European haplogroup?

I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

Any thoughts?
 
To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.

How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
 
To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.

the R1b-v88 that went into africa entered via egypt, then to sudan, chad etc.............it migrated from beyond the northern Levant through southern Levant to NE africa.
 
How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
Well people always say they are. I'm just correcting a misunderstanding.

Don't people who have J1 and J2 in Europe have it because of the Phoenicians?

That is my question. No need to get upset.
 
the R1b-v88 that went into africa entered via egypt, then to sudan, chad etc.............it migrated from beyond the northern Levant through southern Levant to NE africa.
Makes sense. I just find it funny how it's also Sub-Saharan African along with Western European.
 
Patrizio!

My fathers side is from Marche as well from the town of Fano.

I have J1-L858. Which is a downstream of P-58. Does this mean that we are both Neolithic or is it Semitic?\

We could be related. I want to know who brought the J1e to Marche. I think it could've been Neolithic farmers but I'm not sure. The subclade spread from the Levant into Southern Arabia and Europe (us).
 

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