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Thread: Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    Well, J1 means my fathers line came from the Middle East correct? Not much different from other Europeans. Anything in the "J" haplogroup means Near Eastern origin.

    According to the Wikipedia article, J1 started in the Zagros Mountains in Turkey and moved southward where it spread to the Levant and Arabian Peninsula.

    What's the difference between J1 and J2? The answer is not much. They both came from the Middle East and they both had contact with Semitic speaking peoples in the Levant at one point. The only difference is that one stayed in Mesopotamia for longer while the other went Westward to the Levant.

    The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as "Semitic people". It's not an ethnicity. Semitic is a language group. If a Semitic person decided to speak a different language they would cease to be a Semitic person and instead be something else. They are Middle Eastern people. The Assyrians, Lebanese, Israelis, and the Ancient Mesopotamians. They are the exact same people DNA wise is my point. They all come from the Middle East.

    I took my Autosomal results and they came out as they would for anybody with a mix of Southern European and Northern European ancestry. I think I only scored something like 3.20% Middle Eastern on one of the Autosomal calculators. 23andme only gave me 0.1% Middle Eastern and North African which is laughable. I thought as an Italian I'd have MUCH more than that, but when I viewed the results of White Americans almost 90% scored something in a foreign category whether it was Sub Saharan African, Native American, MENA, etc.

    Apparently Asehkenazi is listed under European. The Conservative Estimate for my Ashkenazi was 0.2% at a 95% confidence rate but jumped up to 3.4% at a 75% confidence rate. I asked a geneticist and he said to trust the Conservative estimate more than the Original or Speculative.

    You would need to check the history of geographical area in Italy. J1 can be anything from recent 'Moorish' Jewish converts to older Phoenician or way back Neolithic. Paper trail helps sometimes but I don't think its enough.

    J2 is quite old 22,000 ybp and it seems to have a different story and migration more connected to Anatolia Caucasus and Iran. Its much more common in the South of Europe and if not mistaken some ancient samples have already been found in Europe. Languages are ambiguous and not really anything to go with. They are learned and not inate, and often change according to who is dominating and Economical success of the particular group. We have many instances where Languages are swapped even in recent history.

    I've read all of those links. Thanks.
    Most welcome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    You would need to check the history of geographical area in Italy. J1 can be anything from recent 'Moorish' Jewish converts to older Phoenician or way back Neolithic. Paper trail helps sometimes but I don't think its enough.

    J2 is quite old 22,000 ybp and it seems to have a different story and migration more connected to Anatolia Caucasus and Iran. Its much more common in the South of Europe and if not mistaken some ancient samples have already been found in Europe. Languages are ambiguous and not really anything to go with. They are learned and not inate, and often change according to who is dominating and Economical success of the particular group. We have many instances where Languages are swapped even in recent history.



    Most welcome
    I don't think it's Moorish/Jewish since those were mostly in Iberia (Spain and Portugal), not Central Italy. I think that's the least likely possibility.. It could be Phoenician/Greek or Neolithic. How would I get a paper trail started? Maybe I'll never know the answer.

    Jews and Phoenicians carried haplogroup J2 as well. Both of these Y-lines came into contact with Semitic speaking peoples since they are from the Middle East and had to go through the Levant to get to the Mediterranean.

    J1 is old as well at about 20,000 years old and started near Lake Van in Anatolia. From there it migrated to the Levant and then to Southern Europe via the Mediterranean where it can be found up to 10-20% in some parts of Southern Europe like Greece, Malta, and Sicily. At least from what I've read.

    J1 and J2 both helped spread Neolithic farming.

    My ancestors from my fathers side in Italy are from Marche. Maybe you can help me check.
    Last edited by MINDustry; 02-07-16 at 21:16.

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    I would not be surprised to see either haplogroup in Southern/Mediterranean Europe. They may have been there before R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    I would not be surprised to see either haplogroup in Southern/Mediterranean Europe. They may have been there before R1b.
    To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

    I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.

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    Why is J1 not considered a European haplogroup?

    I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

    Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

    Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

    At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

    The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

    E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

    To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

    There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

    Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

    I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.
    How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
    Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

    I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.
    the R1b-v88 that went into africa entered via egypt, then to sudan, chad etc.............it migrated from beyond the northern Levant through southern Levant to NE africa.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
    Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
    Well people always say they are. I'm just correcting a misunderstanding.

    Don't people who have J1 and J2 in Europe have it because of the Phoenicians?

    That is my question. No need to get upset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the R1b-v88 that went into africa entered via egypt, then to sudan, chad etc.............it migrated from beyond the northern Levant through southern Levant to NE africa.
    Makes sense. I just find it funny how it's also Sub-Saharan African along with Western European.

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    Patrizio!

    My fathers side is from Marche as well from the town of Fano.

    I have J1-L858. Which is a downstream of P-58. Does this mean that we are both Neolithic or is it Semitic?\

    We could be related. I want to know who brought the J1e to Marche. I think it could've been Neolithic farmers but I'm not sure. The subclade spread from the Levant into Southern Arabia and Europe (us).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    Patrizio!

    My fathers side is from Marche as well from the town of Fano.

    I have J1-L858. Which is a downstream of P-58. Does this mean that we are both Neolithic or is it Semitic?\

    We could be related. I want to know who brought the J1e to Marche. I think it could've been Neolithic farmers but I'm not sure. The subclade spread from the Levant into Southern Arabia and Europe (us).
    It's definitely not from Neolithic Europe. Now that we have lots of ancient DNA from the Middle East we can be pretty confident Y DNA J is from Iran/Caucasus. Most ancient Y DNA from there is J going back to the Paleolithic. We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there.

    These people who went to Italy probably came from Turkey and were probably not Semitic. It's possible your P58 is Semetic but I doubt it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    My thoughts are that I think your insecure about being in the J1 Haplogroup....
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

    Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

    Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

    At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

    The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

    E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

    To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

    There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

    Any thoughts?
    from what I read recently on genetics......European ends at Azov city ..........so the caucasus are not European

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    Why-is-J1-not-considered-a-European-haplogroup?
    the reality is complicated - simplifying helps people understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    My thoughts are that I think your insecure about being in the J1 Haplogroup....
    That's how I've read too.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    I think it's more likely to be someone from the anthrofora world who actually believes these things and wants to get a rise out of people here.

    That's why I've been ignoring it...


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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

    Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

    Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

    At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

    The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

    E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

    To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

    There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

    Any thoughts?
    We can discuss all these questions on your initial thread, no need to open new ones for every question ;)

    E1b1b by far is not considered European (or better common in Europe) as the bulk of E1b1b is found in Africa including what is termed the Berber dna E-M81 found in North Africa. In reality there is no such dna as European or anything else, but usually explains the most common haplogroups of a continent compared to the current populations. E1b1b is split into various groups and what would be considered European is its subclade E-V13 which probably has mutated in Europe (likely Balkans) and its found mostly in Europe (concentrated in the Balkans) and to a much lesser extent outside of Europe. J1 is part and parcel of European dna however it comes at much lower percentages say compared to R1b and R1a that makes them the largest haplotype in the present European population. This was not always the case as ancient studies reveal that G's seem to have been the dominant Haplogroup and I's being the oldest European, however they both come in much smaller percentages compared to the R's in current European populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    It's definitely not from Neolithic Europe. Now that we have lots of ancient DNA from the Middle East we can be pretty confident Y DNA J is from Iran/Caucasus. Most ancient Y DNA from there is J going back to the Paleolithic. We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there.

    These people who went to Italy probably came from Turkey and were probably not Semitic. It's possible your P58 is Semetic but I doubt it.
    Fair enough.

    I had a few questions though.

    1) Neolithic Europeans must've spoken SOME form of Semitic language seeing as they came from Mesopotamia which is right beside the Levant in modern day Iraq, which speaks Arabic. At the very least, Neolithic farmers had contact with Semitic speaking peoples and intermingled with them?

    2) What's the difference between people from Turkey and Neolithic Europe? Aren't they the same people or closely related?

    3) You say this: "We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there."

    This means people with the J haplogroup period (J1 or J2) are closely related to Neolithic Europeans if not are Neolithic Europeans? Or are people with J1 not Europeans? I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

    I'm confused.

    Also, Semitic is just a language, not some sort of DNA or ethnicity.

    "Neolithic" is a time period. Not an ethnicity. My ancestors, along with people with J2 were just Middle Eastern farmers.

    I'm confused.

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    I thought Europeans ONLY descended from Neolithic Europeans, Hunter Gatherers, and Ancient Northern Eurasians, and nobody else. Apparently they also descend from ancient Iranians and people from the Caucasus?

    Funny, "Caucasian = Caucasus".

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm going to pretend that you are indeed just confused. Let's just keep your confusion to one thread, shall we? Otherwise, it's spamming, and there will be consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    I thought Europeans ONLY descended from Neolithic Europeans, Hunter Gatherers, and Ancient Northern Eurasians, and nobody else. Apparently they also descend from ancient Iranians and people from the Caucasus?

    Funny, "Caucasian = Caucasus".
    Hello. From what I have gathered our haplogroup came to Europe later than bronze age. From different sources it appears that branches of y haplogroup J1 downstream of the P58 branch may be regarded already as semitic and l858 comes after p58 but you can't be cathegorical, and, above all, I'm not an expert. Anyway, semitic doesn't mean only jewish and arabic but also akkadian, canaanite, phoenician, ugaric, etc.

    Anyway, I can tell you what I have discovered about the area where our ancestors lived, around the town of Ancona. Ancona was about 400 b.c. already a greek harbour, it was the exact border between the gaulish tribes of northern Italy and the Italic tribes of central Italy. both appear to belong to the alpine celtic branch of y haplogroup r1b. So the town of Ancona was a greek colony right in the middle. It was already trading with the levant at the time but also during roman times when it became a great roman harbour trading with the mediterranean. Later it became a maritine republic in partnership with the croatian harbour of Ragusa (dubrovnik). The town of Ancona had offices and embassies in the balkans, greece, the black sea in Romania and close to Armenia but also in Israel and Egypt. It was a multicultural town with residents from the Levant, Egypt, Israel, the balkans, etc. At the end of the 14th century that area of the adriatic coast and especially Ancona received a huge immigration of sephardic jews who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal but also of jews who had been expelled from southern Italy. There was also a huge immigration of slavs (who in italian were called Schiavoni) who fled the Turkish invasion of the balkans. In that area of Italy, the black death had decimated the population and the countryside had been abandoned. So those slavs occupied the Adriatic countyside so much that probably one out of three italians during the 16th century had slavic origins.

    The slavs are not usually associated with y haplogroup j1 but the jewish are. Ancona had a huge jewish community from the early 16th century. So, I think the possible origins of our ancestors could be either ancient, like the other member said (probably iron age or roman times) or more recent like for example sephardic jews from the iberian peninsula or the jews of southern italy who were both expelled under spanish occupation. Many of those spanish jews were called Marranos or Conversos because they had became christians in Spain and Portugal but they were nevertheless obliged to leave. So, technically, some of them were not jews anymore. My family name, Brega, is not marked as Jewish or Converso or Marrano in any jewish database. In the Napoleonic registry of the early 19th century my family name is present only in the village of Castelleta, which is a bit on the inside from Fano, following the old Flaminia roman road. The town of Fano must have had a similar situation because it is not far away.

    So, who were our ancestors? It is difficult to say. What's your family name? Bye.

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    R1b DF27*
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    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    When discussing genetics there's differnt definitions of European. The best way to define it is humans living in Europe in 2016 AD(xknown recent immigrants, including Jews and Romani/Gypses). When discussing ancient genetics there's no perfect definition for European, because modern Europeans are a mixture of several differnt ancient people most of whom didn't live in Europe. Well it depends what how ancient. When you go back 8,000 years ago most were not living in Europe, but if you went back 6,000 years ago most were.

    I'd say the definition of "white" or "European" is Anatolia Neolithic+Bronze age Pontic Caspien Steppe+Mesolithic Western Europe. When you go back 5,000 years ago "white" isn't a single type of ancestry, it's a fusion of differnt types of ancestry. Today all Europeans are clearly closely related because they're a similar mix and so today in 2016 AD it's easy to define what European is genetically, but you can't use that same definition when referring to humans 5,000 years ago.

    Hopefully I got my point across. By most definitions I wouldn't call J1 European, just like I wouldn't call R1b European. Most J1 today IMO arrived less than 5,000 years ago from Turkey/Caucasus/Mesoptamia area. J1 is as European as R1b. Because R1b arrived in the same time frame, from people who lived farther away(Russia) and were genetically more differnt than humans already living in Europe. 5,000 years ago Near East/Europe were very related while Russia was very differnt.

    EDIT: If you're talking about geography and not genetics, then J1 isn't European. It's probably ultimately from Northern West Asia. Ancient DNA suggests it could be from the Caucasus or Iran. The oldest example of J1 is from Georgia and is 13,000 years old. Once again if you're talking about geography not genetics the only truly European Y DNA haplogroups are I and C1a2 and other forms of C1. We have examples of both haplogroups in Europe that are over 30,000 years old.

    What I mean by "geography not genetics" is I'm only referring to geographic land of Europe not European genes. Like I just said there are differnt genetic definitions for European. The people who lived in Western Europe 10,000 years ago are more foreign to modern Western Europe than people who lived in Turkey 10,000 years ago. So Y DNA I2 is Western European, but when I say Western European I'm not referring to humans currently living there I'm referring to the piece of land.

  23. #73
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b – Dinaric
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Herzegovinan Croat
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
    Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
    What are you talking about? They most certainly are. For example, a man with Haplogroup A almost certainly has some African ancestry, and a man with D-M55 is almost certainly from Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello. From what I have gathered our haplogroup came to Europe later than bronze age. From different sources it appears that branches of y haplogroup J1 downstream of the P58 branch may be regarded already as semitic and l858 comes after p58 but you can't be cathegorical, and, above all, I'm not an expert. Anyway, semitic doesn't mean only jewish and arabic but also akkadian, canaanite, phoenician, ugaric, etc.

    Anyway, I can tell you what I have discovered about the area where our ancestors lived, around the town of Ancona. Ancona was about 400 b.c. already a greek harbour, it was the exact border between the gaulish tribes of northern Italy and the Italic tribes of central Italy. both appear to belong to the alpine celtic branch of y haplogroup r1b. So the town of Ancona was a greek colony right in the middle. It was already trading with the levant at the time but also during roman times when it became a great roman harbour trading with the mediterranean. Later it became a maritine republic in partnership with the croatian harbour of Ragusa (dubrovnik). The town of Ancona had offices and embassies in the balkans, greece, the black sea in Romania and close to Armenia but also in Israel and Egypt. It was a multicultural town with residents from the Levant, Egypt, Israel, the balkans, etc. At the end of the 14th century that area of the adriatic coast and especially Ancona received a huge immigration of sephardic jews who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal but also of jews who had been expelled from southern Italy. There was also a huge immigration of slavs (who in italian were called Schiavoni) who fled the Turkish invasion of the balkans. In that area of Italy, the black death had decimated the population and the countryside had been abandoned. So those slavs occupied the Adriatic countyside so much that probably one out of three italians during the 16th century had slavic origins.

    The slavs are not usually associated with y haplogroup j1 but the jewish are. Ancona had a huge jewish community from the early 16th century. So, I think the possible origins of our ancestors could be either ancient, like the other member said (probably iron age or roman times) or more recent like for example sephardic jews from the iberian peninsula or the jews of southern italy who were both expelled under spanish occupation. Many of those spanish jews were called Marranos or Conversos because they had became christians in Spain and Portugal but they were nevertheless obliged to leave. So, technically, some of them were not jews anymore. My family name, Brega, is not marked as Jewish or Converso or Marrano in any jewish database. In the Napoleonic registry of the early 19th century my family name is present only in the village of Castelleta, which is a bit on the inside from Fano, following the old Flaminia roman road. The town of Fano must have had a similar situation because it is not far away.

    So, who were our ancestors? It is difficult to say. What's your family name? Bye.
    It might not even be Semitic at all, some say, if it came from Caucasus/Iran like the previous poster said. We will never know whether it was a Semitic speaking person or not. It could've entered during the Bronze Age, before, or after. We don't know. I don't think it's Jewish though.

    I typed in "jewish" after my last name and found nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    What are you talking about? They most certainly are. For example, a man with Haplogroup A almost certainly has some African ancestry, and a man with D-M55 is almost certainly from Japan.
    Just as someone with haplogroup J has European ancestry that came from the Middle East.

    African haplogroups and Asian haplogroups are more Isolated. European haplogroups are all over the map.

    For example: Thomas Jefferson had haplogroup T, which is very rare amongst Europeans, but this man still obviously had European ancestry. Different branches spread and go to Europe.

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