Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

Patrizio!

My fathers side is from Marche as well from the town of Fano.

I have J1-L858. Which is a downstream of P-58. Does this mean that we are both Neolithic or is it Semitic?\

We could be related. I want to know who brought the J1e to Marche. I think it could've been Neolithic farmers but I'm not sure. The subclade spread from the Levant into Southern Arabia and Europe (us).

It's definitely not from Neolithic Europe. Now that we have lots of ancient DNA from the Middle East we can be pretty confident Y DNA J is from Iran/Caucasus. Most ancient Y DNA from there is J going back to the Paleolithic. We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there.

These people who went to Italy probably came from Turkey and were probably not Semitic. It's possible your P58 is Semetic but I doubt it.
 
My thoughts are that I think your insecure about being in the J1 Haplogroup....
 
I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

Any thoughts?

from what I read recently on genetics......European ends at Azov city ..........so the caucasus are not European
 
I think it's more likely to be someone from the anthrofora world who actually believes these things and wants to get a rise out of people here.

That's why I've been ignoring it...
 
I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

Any thoughts?

We can discuss all these questions on your initial thread, no need to open new ones for every question ;)

E1b1b by far is not considered European (or better common in Europe) as the bulk of E1b1b is found in Africa including what is termed the Berber dna E-M81 found in North Africa. In reality there is no such dna as European or anything else, but usually explains the most common haplogroups of a continent compared to the current populations. E1b1b is split into various groups and what would be considered European is its subclade E-V13 which probably has mutated in Europe (likely Balkans) and its found mostly in Europe (concentrated in the Balkans) and to a much lesser extent outside of Europe. J1 is part and parcel of European dna however it comes at much lower percentages say compared to R1b and R1a that makes them the largest haplotype in the present European population. This was not always the case as ancient studies reveal that G's seem to have been the dominant Haplogroup and I's being the oldest European, however they both come in much smaller percentages compared to the R's in current European populations.
 
It's definitely not from Neolithic Europe. Now that we have lots of ancient DNA from the Middle East we can be pretty confident Y DNA J is from Iran/Caucasus. Most ancient Y DNA from there is J going back to the Paleolithic. We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there.

These people who went to Italy probably came from Turkey and were probably not Semitic. It's possible your P58 is Semetic but I doubt it.
Fair enough.

I had a few questions though.

1) Neolithic Europeans must've spoken SOME form of Semitic language seeing as they came from Mesopotamia which is right beside the Levant in modern day Iraq, which speaks Arabic. At the very least, Neolithic farmers had contact with Semitic speaking peoples and intermingled with them?

2) What's the difference between people from Turkey and Neolithic Europe? Aren't they the same people or closely related?

3) You say this: "We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there."

This means people with the J haplogroup period (J1 or J2) are closely related to Neolithic Europeans if not are Neolithic Europeans? Or are people with J1 not Europeans? I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

I'm confused.

Also, Semitic is just a language, not some sort of DNA or ethnicity.

"Neolithic" is a time period. Not an ethnicity. My ancestors, along with people with J2 were just Middle Eastern farmers.

I'm confused.
 
I thought Europeans ONLY descended from Neolithic Europeans, Hunter Gatherers, and Ancient Northern Eurasians, and nobody else. Apparently they also descend from ancient Iranians and people from the Caucasus?

Funny, "Caucasian = Caucasus".
 
I'm going to pretend that you are indeed just confused. Let's just keep your confusion to one thread, shall we? Otherwise, it's spamming, and there will be consequences.
 
I thought Europeans ONLY descended from Neolithic Europeans, Hunter Gatherers, and Ancient Northern Eurasians, and nobody else. Apparently they also descend from ancient Iranians and people from the Caucasus?

Funny, "Caucasian = Caucasus".

Hello. From what I have gathered our haplogroup came to Europe later than bronze age. From different sources it appears that branches of y haplogroup J1 downstream of the P58 branch may be regarded already as semitic and l858 comes after p58 but you can't be cathegorical, and, above all, I'm not an expert. Anyway, semitic doesn't mean only jewish and arabic but also akkadian, canaanite, phoenician, ugaric, etc.

Anyway, I can tell you what I have discovered about the area where our ancestors lived, around the town of Ancona. Ancona was about 400 b.c. already a greek harbour, it was the exact border between the gaulish tribes of northern Italy and the Italic tribes of central Italy. both appear to belong to the alpine celtic branch of y haplogroup r1b. So the town of Ancona was a greek colony right in the middle. It was already trading with the levant at the time but also during roman times when it became a great roman harbour trading with the mediterranean. Later it became a maritine republic in partnership with the croatian harbour of Ragusa (dubrovnik). The town of Ancona had offices and embassies in the balkans, greece, the black sea in Romania and close to Armenia but also in Israel and Egypt. It was a multicultural town with residents from the Levant, Egypt, Israel, the balkans, etc. At the end of the 14th century that area of the adriatic coast and especially Ancona received a huge immigration of sephardic jews who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal but also of jews who had been expelled from southern Italy. There was also a huge immigration of slavs (who in italian were called Schiavoni) who fled the Turkish invasion of the balkans. In that area of Italy, the black death had decimated the population and the countryside had been abandoned. So those slavs occupied the Adriatic countyside so much that probably one out of three italians during the 16th century had slavic origins.

The slavs are not usually associated with y haplogroup j1 but the jewish are. Ancona had a huge jewish community from the early 16th century. So, I think the possible origins of our ancestors could be either ancient, like the other member said (probably iron age or roman times) or more recent like for example sephardic jews from the iberian peninsula or the jews of southern italy who were both expelled under spanish occupation. Many of those spanish jews were called Marranos or Conversos because they had became christians in Spain and Portugal but they were nevertheless obliged to leave. So, technically, some of them were not jews anymore. My family name, Brega, is not marked as Jewish or Converso or Marrano in any jewish database. In the Napoleonic registry of the early 19th century my family name is present only in the village of Castelleta, which is a bit on the inside from Fano, following the old Flaminia roman road. The town of Fano must have had a similar situation because it is not far away.

So, who were our ancestors? It is difficult to say. What's your family name? Bye.
 
When discussing genetics there's differnt definitions of European. The best way to define it is humans living in Europe in 2016 AD(xknown recent immigrants, including Jews and Romani/Gypses). When discussing ancient genetics there's no perfect definition for European, because modern Europeans are a mixture of several differnt ancient people most of whom didn't live in Europe. Well it depends what how ancient. When you go back 8,000 years ago most were not living in Europe, but if you went back 6,000 years ago most were.

I'd say the definition of "white" or "European" is Anatolia Neolithic+Bronze age Pontic Caspien Steppe+Mesolithic Western Europe. When you go back 5,000 years ago "white" isn't a single type of ancestry, it's a fusion of differnt types of ancestry. Today all Europeans are clearly closely related because they're a similar mix and so today in 2016 AD it's easy to define what European is genetically, but you can't use that same definition when referring to humans 5,000 years ago.

Hopefully I got my point across. By most definitions I wouldn't call J1 European, just like I wouldn't call R1b European. Most J1 today IMO arrived less than 5,000 years ago from Turkey/Caucasus/Mesoptamia area. J1 is as European as R1b. Because R1b arrived in the same time frame, from people who lived farther away(Russia) and were genetically more differnt than humans already living in Europe. 5,000 years ago Near East/Europe were very related while Russia was very differnt.

EDIT: If you're talking about geography and not genetics, then J1 isn't European. It's probably ultimately from Northern West Asia. Ancient DNA suggests it could be from the Caucasus or Iran. The oldest example of J1 is from Georgia and is 13,000 years old. Once again if you're talking about geography not genetics the only truly European Y DNA haplogroups are I and C1a2 and other forms of C1. We have examples of both haplogroups in Europe that are over 30,000 years old.

What I mean by "geography not genetics" is I'm only referring to geographic land of Europe not European genes. Like I just said there are differnt genetic definitions for European. The people who lived in Western Europe 10,000 years ago are more foreign to modern Western Europe than people who lived in Turkey 10,000 years ago. So Y DNA I2 is Western European, but when I say Western European I'm not referring to humans currently living there I'm referring to the piece of land.
 
How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
What are you talking about? They most certainly are. For example, a man with Haplogroup A almost certainly has some African ancestry, and a man with D-M55 is almost certainly from Japan.
 
Hello. From what I have gathered our haplogroup came to Europe later than bronze age. From different sources it appears that branches of y haplogroup J1 downstream of the P58 branch may be regarded already as semitic and l858 comes after p58 but you can't be cathegorical, and, above all, I'm not an expert. Anyway, semitic doesn't mean only jewish and arabic but also akkadian, canaanite, phoenician, ugaric, etc.

Anyway, I can tell you what I have discovered about the area where our ancestors lived, around the town of Ancona. Ancona was about 400 b.c. already a greek harbour, it was the exact border between the gaulish tribes of northern Italy and the Italic tribes of central Italy. both appear to belong to the alpine celtic branch of y haplogroup r1b. So the town of Ancona was a greek colony right in the middle. It was already trading with the levant at the time but also during roman times when it became a great roman harbour trading with the mediterranean. Later it became a maritine republic in partnership with the croatian harbour of Ragusa (dubrovnik). The town of Ancona had offices and embassies in the balkans, greece, the black sea in Romania and close to Armenia but also in Israel and Egypt. It was a multicultural town with residents from the Levant, Egypt, Israel, the balkans, etc. At the end of the 14th century that area of the adriatic coast and especially Ancona received a huge immigration of sephardic jews who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal but also of jews who had been expelled from southern Italy. There was also a huge immigration of slavs (who in italian were called Schiavoni) who fled the Turkish invasion of the balkans. In that area of Italy, the black death had decimated the population and the countryside had been abandoned. So those slavs occupied the Adriatic countyside so much that probably one out of three italians during the 16th century had slavic origins.

The slavs are not usually associated with y haplogroup j1 but the jewish are. Ancona had a huge jewish community from the early 16th century. So, I think the possible origins of our ancestors could be either ancient, like the other member said (probably iron age or roman times) or more recent like for example sephardic jews from the iberian peninsula or the jews of southern italy who were both expelled under spanish occupation. Many of those spanish jews were called Marranos or Conversos because they had became christians in Spain and Portugal but they were nevertheless obliged to leave. So, technically, some of them were not jews anymore. My family name, Brega, is not marked as Jewish or Converso or Marrano in any jewish database. In the Napoleonic registry of the early 19th century my family name is present only in the village of Castelleta, which is a bit on the inside from Fano, following the old Flaminia roman road. The town of Fano must have had a similar situation because it is not far away.

So, who were our ancestors? It is difficult to say. What's your family name? Bye.
It might not even be Semitic at all, some say, if it came from Caucasus/Iran like the previous poster said. We will never know whether it was a Semitic speaking person or not. It could've entered during the Bronze Age, before, or after. We don't know. I don't think it's Jewish though.

I typed in "jewish" after my last name and found nothing.
 
What are you talking about? They most certainly are. For example, a man with Haplogroup A almost certainly has some African ancestry, and a man with D-M55 is almost certainly from Japan.

Just as someone with haplogroup J has European ancestry that came from the Middle East.

African haplogroups and Asian haplogroups are more Isolated. European haplogroups are all over the map.

For example: Thomas Jefferson had haplogroup T, which is very rare amongst Europeans, but this man still obviously had European ancestry. Different branches spread and go to Europe.
 
It might not even be Semitic at all, some say, if it came from Caucasus/Iran like the previous poster said. We will never know whether it was a Semitic speaking person or not. It could've entered during the Bronze Age, before, or after. We don't know. I don't think it's Jewish though.

I typed in "jewish" after my last name and found nothing.

No records or anything.
 
Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.
 
Just as someone with haplogroup J has European ancestry that came from the Middle East.

African haplogroups and Asian haplogroups are more Isolated. European haplogroups are all over the map.

For example: Thomas Jefferson had haplogroup T, which is very rare amongst Europeans, but this man still obviously had European ancestry. Different branches spread and go to Europe.
I don't disagree, my point was that DuPidh was wrong saying that haplogroups have "nothing to do" with ethnicity. In many cases they are clearly indicators.
 
Fair enough.

I had a few questions though.

1) Neolithic Europeans must've spoken SOME form of Semitic language seeing as they came from Mesopotamia which is right beside the Levant in modern day Iraq, which speaks Arabic. At the very least, Neolithic farmers had contact with Semitic speaking peoples and intermingled with them?

I honestly have no idea. When you go back 9,000 years you can't expect the people to have the same language and genes as the people living there today. Semetic languages existing there today isn't good evidence in my opinion that they were there 9,000 years ago.

2) What's the difference between people from Turkey and Neolithic Europe? Aren't they the same people or closely related?

The Neolithic age/Farming age was brought to Europe from Turkey. Neolithic Europeans were a mixture of newcomers from Turkey and indigenous Europeans. Most of their ancestry was from Turkey. After living in Europe for 2,000 years, most only had about 20% indigenous European admixture. So yeah Neolithic Turkish and Europeans were basically the same people, the only difference is indigenous European admixture in Neolithic Europe.

Modern Turkish though are a differnt story. We can see looking at ancient DNA that people from around the Caucasus/Iran were migrating into Turkey 6,000 year ago. Modern Turkish mostly look like a mixture of Neolithic Turkish and ancient Caucasus/Iran.

This means people with the J haplogroup period (J1 or J2) are closely related to Neolithic Europeans if not are Neolithic Europeans? Or are people with J1 not Europeans? I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

Y DNA J came from their Caucasus/Iran ancestors not their ancestors who were closely related to Neolithic Europeans. The newcomers were mostly a mixture of ancient Caucasus/Iran(Y DNA J) and people similar to Neolithic Turkish/Europeans(Y DNA G2a or E1b or H2).

Or are people with J1 not Europeans?

I answered that in another thread.

I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

"Native Hunter Gatherer+Middle Eastern Farmer" is the old model. Because of more ancient DNA we now know European origins are more complicated. Hunter Gatherer+Farmer is one part of European's ancestry the the next most important part is from the Bronze age Pontic Caspie Steppe(Russia).

So you had farmers from Neolithic migrate into Europe and gradually mix with indigenous hunter gatherers in 7000-5000 BC. By 3000 BC most Europeans were 80% Turkish Farmer and 20% Native European. On the other side of Europe, in Russia, was another world with its own story. There was no massive migration by Turkish farmers. It wasn't farmer+hunter gatherer. Instead there was gradual admixture with people from the Caucasus mountains(Y DNA J) and SouthEast Europe(100% Neolithic Turkish).

By 3000 BC people in Russia were roughly 60% Indigenous Russian(Y DNA R1b and R1a), 30% Ancient Caucasus, and 10% Neolithic Turkish. Then those people in Russia migrated en masse into Europe and contributed a huge chunk of ancestry to all Europeans except Sardinians. They're a big part of modern European's ancestry. So Europeans are not just Hunter gatherer+Farmer. For Southern Europeans it gets more complicated, because there was migration from Northern West Asia into Southern Europe after the Neolithic as well.

Ancient Caucasus/Iran is an important part of all European's ancestry via ancestry from those Bronze age Russians. It's more important for Southern Europeans, because there was migration from Northern West Asia with loads of Y DNA J and ancestry from the Ancient Caucasus/Iran. I hope I explained this well.

Also, Semitic is just a language, not some sort of DNA or ethnicity.

I agree.

"Neolithic" is a time period. Not an ethnicity. My ancestors, along with people with J2 were just Middle Eastern farmers.

You're right. I say "Neolithic" because that's the oldest time frame they lived in. I'm not saying the time frame defines their genes. They could have lived up until 2016 AD unadmixed, they almost did in Sardinia.
 
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J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. According to the Armenian DNA Project, most of the Eastern European cases of J1* with DYS388 are ancestrally Armenian.

The "J1* with DYS388 = 13 or 14, L136-, P58- sub-clade" is considered by Dr. Roy King of Stanford University to be one of the markers of the Caucasian-speaking Hurrians and Urartians. James Honeychuck has prepared a MAP of the current distribution of this sub-clade. Many if not most of the Eastern European cases of J1* with DYS388 = 13 or 14 shown on this map could well be ancestrally Armenian.

J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.

Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey).

Etruscan culture was very advanced and quite different from other known Italian cultures that flourished at the same time, and highly influential in the development of Roman civilisation. Its origins have been debated by archaeologists, historians and linguists since time immemorial.

Now modern genetic techniques have given scientists the tools to answer this puzzle. Professor Piazza and his colleagues set out to study genetic samples from three present-day Italian populations living in Murlo, Volterra, and Casentino in Tuscany, central Italy. “We already knew that people living in this area were genetically different from those in the surrounding regions”, he says. “Murlo and Volterra are among the most archaeologically important Etruscan sites in a region of Tuscany also known for having Etruscan-derived place names and local dialects. The Casentino valley sample was taken from an area bordering the area where Etruscan influence has been preserved.”

The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

“We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples”, says Professor Piazza. “In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos.”
 
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