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Thread: Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    It might not even be Semitic at all, some say, if it came from Caucasus/Iran like the previous poster said. We will never know whether it was a Semitic speaking person or not. It could've entered during the Bronze Age, before, or after. We don't know. I don't think it's Jewish though.

    I typed in "jewish" after my last name and found nothing.
    No records or anything.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

    As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
    http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

    All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

    As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

    There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

    As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    Just as someone with haplogroup J has European ancestry that came from the Middle East.

    African haplogroups and Asian haplogroups are more Isolated. European haplogroups are all over the map.

    For example: Thomas Jefferson had haplogroup T, which is very rare amongst Europeans, but this man still obviously had European ancestry. Different branches spread and go to Europe.
    I don't disagree, my point was that DuPidh was wrong saying that haplogroups have "nothing to do" with ethnicity. In many cases they are clearly indicators.

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    [QUOTE=MINDustry;483091]Fair enough.

    I had a few questions though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    1) Neolithic Europeans must've spoken SOME form of Semitic language seeing as they came from Mesopotamia which is right beside the Levant in modern day Iraq, which speaks Arabic. At the very least, Neolithic farmers had contact with Semitic speaking peoples and intermingled with them?
    I honestly have no idea. When you go back 9,000 years you can't expect the people to have the same language and genes as the people living there today. Semetic languages existing there today isn't good evidence in my opinion that they were there 9,000 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    2) What's the difference between people from Turkey and Neolithic Europe? Aren't they the same people or closely related?
    The Neolithic age/Farming age was brought to Europe from Turkey. Neolithic Europeans were a mixture of newcomers from Turkey and indigenous Europeans. Most of their ancestry was from Turkey. After living in Europe for 2,000 years, most only had about 20% indigenous European admixture. So yeah Neolithic Turkish and Europeans were basically the same people, the only difference is indigenous European admixture in Neolithic Europe.

    Modern Turkish though are a differnt story. We can see looking at ancient DNA that people from around the Caucasus/Iran were migrating into Turkey 6,000 year ago. Modern Turkish mostly look like a mixture of Neolithic Turkish and ancient Caucasus/Iran.

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    This means people with the J haplogroup period (J1 or J2) are closely related to Neolithic Europeans if not are Neolithic Europeans? Or are people with J1 not Europeans? I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?
    Y DNA J came from their Caucasus/Iran ancestors not their ancestors who were closely related to Neolithic Europeans. The newcomers were mostly a mixture of ancient Caucasus/Iran(Y DNA J) and people similar to Neolithic Turkish/Europeans(Y DNA G2a or E1b or H2).

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    Or are people with J1 not Europeans?
    I answered that in another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?
    "Native Hunter Gatherer+Middle Eastern Farmer" is the old model. Because of more ancient DNA we now know European origins are more complicated. Hunter Gatherer+Farmer is one part of European's ancestry the the next most important part is from the Bronze age Pontic Caspie Steppe(Russia).

    So you had farmers from Neolithic migrate into Europe and gradually mix with indigenous hunter gatherers in 7000-5000 BC. By 3000 BC most Europeans were 80% Turkish Farmer and 20% Native European. On the other side of Europe, in Russia, was another world with its own story. There was no massive migration by Turkish farmers. It wasn't farmer+hunter gatherer. Instead there was gradual admixture with people from the Caucasus mountains(Y DNA J) and SouthEast Europe(100% Neolithic Turkish).

    By 3000 BC people in Russia were roughly 60% Indigenous Russian(Y DNA R1b and R1a), 30% Ancient Caucasus, and 10% Neolithic Turkish. Then those people in Russia migrated en masse into Europe and contributed a huge chunk of ancestry to all Europeans except Sardinians. They're a big part of modern European's ancestry. So Europeans are not just Hunter gatherer+Farmer. For Southern Europeans it gets more complicated, because there was migration from Northern West Asia into Southern Europe after the Neolithic as well.

    Ancient Caucasus/Iran is an important part of all European's ancestry via ancestry from those Bronze age Russians. It's more important for Southern Europeans, because there was migration from Northern West Asia with loads of Y DNA J and ancestry from the Ancient Caucasus/Iran. I hope I explained this well.

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    Also, Semitic is just a language, not some sort of DNA or ethnicity.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    "Neolithic" is a time period. Not an ethnicity. My ancestors, along with people with J2 were just Middle Eastern farmers.
    You're right. I say "Neolithic" because that's the oldest time frame they lived in. I'm not saying the time frame defines their genes. They could have lived up until 2016 AD unadmixed, they almost did in Sardinia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.


    J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. According to the Armenian DNA Project, most of the Eastern European cases of J1* with DYS388 are ancestrally Armenian.

    The "J1* with DYS388 = 13 or 14, L136-, P58- sub-clade" is considered by Dr. Roy King of Stanford University to be one of the markers of the Caucasian-speaking Hurrians and Urartians. James Honeychuck has prepared a MAP of the current distribution of this sub-clade. Many if not most of the Eastern European cases of J1* with DYS388 = 13 or 14 shown on this map could well be ancestrally Armenian.
    J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.

    Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey).

    Etruscan culture was very advanced and quite different from other known Italian cultures that flourished at the same time, and highly influential in the development of Roman civilisation. Its origins have been debated by archaeologists, historians and linguists since time immemorial.

    Now modern genetic techniques have given scientists the tools to answer this puzzle. Professor Piazza and his colleagues set out to study genetic samples from three present-day Italian populations living in Murlo, Volterra, and Casentino in Tuscany, central Italy. “We already knew that people living in this area were genetically different from those in the surrounding regions”, he says. “Murlo and Volterra are among the most archaeologically important Etruscan sites in a region of Tuscany also known for having Etruscan-derived place names and local dialects. The Casentino valley sample was taken from an area bordering the area where Etruscan influence has been preserved.”

    The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

    “We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples”, says Professor Piazza. “In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos.”
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 04-07-16 at 21:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That isn't how it works. The genes which code for "appearance" if that's what you mean by "traits" are in your autosomal dna; they aren't carried by your mtDna or yDna. Whatever you inherit from your mother in terms of autosomal inheritance comes from all of her ancestors, male and female, and the same is true for your father. Your mtDna and yDna ancestors are only two lines out of many.

    Let's take a simple example. Let's say that a person has maternal ancestry from the Cape Verde Islands. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but the people there have quite a bit of SSA admixture. It shows up in autosomal tests, and also shows up in "appearance". I once went to a Cape Verdean festival in Massachusetts, and you can clearly see it in these people. However, the mtDna of some of them might be a totally unremarkable mtDna "H" subclade common in Portugal. (Of course, it could also be mtDna L3) The SSA could have entered through the paternal ancestors of the mother, or could indeed have entered through a maternal line, but not the one represented by the mtDna. Do you see how it can work?

    If you follow this link you can access a lot of "beginner's guides" to the whole subject of genetic genealogy. You might find them useful.
    http://isogg.org/wiki/Beginners'_gui...etic_genealogy



    I take it you're not an afficionado of cheese? :) Have you ever heard of Roquefort, Manchego, or, if you're in a goat cheese mood, feta, chèvre (Bucheron), garrotxa...well, I could go on and on. Spain is actually the largest producer of sheep cheeses. Are you going to attribute it to J1 sheep herders? Bucheron is made in the Loire Valley, feta in, obviously, Greece. I'm not aware of any "Arabic" domination of those areas.

    The goat, the sheep, and the cow were all domesticated in the Near East and were all brought to Europe by Neolithic farmers.
    http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/images/r4_468.png

    This is a paper on domesticated animals in the Early Neolithic in the Balkans:
    http://www.academia.edu/4124374/Anim...Central_Europe

    Animal Herding in the Balkan Neolithic:
    http://www.academia.edu/1517144/Herd...lkan_Neolithic

    Although there are nutritional pros and cons to the milk of all these animals, in one thing the cow has the others beat hands down, and that's in the total quantity of milk they can produce, which makes sense given the size differential. However, the downside is that they require a great deal of food, huge quantities of grass or hay or even better, grain. In certain parts of Europe that's just not to be had. Terrain and climate dictate what you grow and which animals you domesticate, the "terroir", or at least they did. That's why in rural Emilia there are more cows than people, but in Liguria and the Lunigiana people could only manage a cow or two for personal use, and sometimes not even that, and the vast majority of cheeses are made from either sheep's milk or goat's milk. Oh, and we don't have much J1 at all. :)

    It's easy, in the beginning, without an understanding of the causes of certain economic paradigms or cultural manifestations, to draw false conclusions. For example, I recently read a post elsewhere where someone, after listening to some "Ashkenazi' music and some "Sicilian" music, saw some similarities between them and tried to use that as "proof" of gene sharing between them. This totally ignores the fact, as others pointed out, that cultural flow, particularly in the modern era, can have absolutely nothing to do with gene flow. More directly, if this person knew anything about European music, he would have known that the two pieces of music were both influenced by music forms created in eastern Europe. Do you know how much Italian "folk" music is set to mazurkas and polkas? Why, the older folks wouldn't be able to dance at summer festivals if all such music was removed from the program. :) *The same thing happened with the "jig". It was created or evolved in 16th century England. From there it spread to Ireland, France, Italy etc. (the French gigue, the Italian giga) This isn't proof of any gene flow or sharing between them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig



    What makes you think we don't recognize that this is all very complicated? See:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Post+Neolithic

    As for the yDna of the Neolithic, you might want to read Iain Mathiesen et al, which shows that the Anatolian farmers carried various yDna clades, even if the majority were G2a. That doesn't mean there was only one Neolithic wave, necessarily. J2 and the immediate precursor to E-V13 suddenly show up in Europe in the mid-Neolithic.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf

    *Ah, I forgot all the songs based on the German waltz. It's all called ballo liscio in Italian, if anyone is interested, dances (and songs) based on waltzes, mazurkas and polkas. Later on, tangos were added, and there was no mass migration of Argentinians to account for it. :)







    Interesting what you said about music. Though, I understand and agree what you're saying about how you can't attribute geneflow with things like music. I just always thought peculiar the type of music found in mountain and remote areas of Europe to be a little similar e.g. Sardinian Tenores, Gaelic Psalm singing in the Hebrides, Albanian polyphonic singing and so on. The style reminds me of how bagpipes are used, which are traditionally used in herding/shepherding areas. It might mean nothing but wouldn't it be fascinating if ancient herders sang these style harmonization to entertain themselves while out in the fields and mountains?

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    Hello. It's true that some J1s came from the Caucasus. In fact, the first, older branches of J1 are found in Georgia and Armenia, but they usually are a lot older than our l858 and some alre also found in Europe. L858 is, apparently, 5300 years old and started spreading nearly 1000 years later. That's the end of the bronze age. Some georgian and armenian j1s dates back to the mesolithic or even earlier. I'm just quoting some experts who belong to some of these branches. After testing with the genographic project I transfered my results on ftdna and joined a J1 project. Unfortunately my results don't appear in this project list because I have no STR testing. But one of the administrators of the J1 project wrote to me that l858 was born probably around Mesopotamia (others say the levant) and could include a wide variety of ethnic groups. Some old j1 branches (older than ours) have apparently been found also in India. This is just contemporary dna, people like you and me who had a dna test. So, I talked about the medieval jewish migration but it doesn't need necessarily to be jewish, I was just telling you about that area of italy. Your ancestors could be anyone. It could also be that your family was not originally from Fano but went there from another italian region.
    I have been browsing old registry documents from that area, if you tell me your family name I could tell you whether I came across your family name and whether it sounds like from the Marche region.

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    [QUOTE=Fire Haired14;483193]
    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    Neolithic Europeans were a mixture of newcomers from Turkey and indigenous Europeans.
    So basically what I am if I go far back enough.

    I do have significant Neolithic Farmer ancestry. I took a GEDmatch that ran European Hunter/Gatherer vs Mediterranean Farmer and you should've seen my score for Mediterranean/European/Neolithic whatever Farmer. It was quite sizable as it probably is for all Italians. I am only half Italian though so the it was a split between Northern European HG vs Neolithic Farmer that I scored.

    Modern Europeans like myself are a mixture of many different things. Neolithic being one of them.

    Genetics and migration is honestly much more complicated than I ever expected it to be. People got around so much and there are too many different possibilities for everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

    As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
    http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

    All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

    As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

    There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

    As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.
    I came out as pretty European when I took the autosomal tests. Barely any foreign admixture.

    My signature came out as closest resembling Northern Italians and Tuscans on almost EVERY test so I guess whatever my J1 Y-DNA is didn't really have any sort of impact when it came from the Middle East.

    My subclade, L828 -> L829, which I tested positive for apparently was in the Near East AND Spread to Europe, effectively making it European. Even then I don't know which other subclades I test positive for. P-58 doesn't always mean your ancestors spoke a Semitic language. I guess I'll never know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post


    J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.
    "Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey). "

    I guess my J1e is ancient Anatolian in origin then. The people I match closest to genetically are Tuscan's.

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    [QUOTE=Fire Haired14;483193]
    Quote Originally Posted by MINDustry View Post
    I answered that in another thread.
    I forgot your answer. I think it was a "yes, Europeans can have J1e as well".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post


    J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.
    Last time I checked, Armenia and Azerbaijan are not in Europe.

    Where is the data to support the fact that the J1 in eastern Europe is from Armenians? First of all, you need detailed subclade information, as not all J1 is the same. Some upstream J1 may have come with the Neolithic, or some with the Bronze Age, but if it is in the specifically downstream southern Levant clades, and given that we know that there is IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Poles specifically, and therefore probably with all Slavs, and further given the fact of all the information that has come out about Jews who "passed" into the gentile community in the last 150 years or so, the reality is that the vast percentage of the specifically Middle eastern clades of J1 in eastern Europe are from Jews, not from the small population of Armenians.

    J2 is not most frequent in northern Italy. Only one paper, based on very few samples, even if their methodology was good, found pretty high levels of J2 in one region of central Italy, the Marche.


    The Marche have always had extended contacts with Greece and the Balkans. The J2 distribution mirrors that, in my opinion. As for J1, as I said, you have to look at the subclades. The J1 of our half Italian poster could have come from anywhere at any time. The only thing to do is follow the male line as far back as possible through church records. Beyond that one can only speculate.

    We've discussed these topics repeatedly, as we have the Etruscans. Please use the search engine to find the discussions.

    Here are a few that the posters on this thread might find interesting.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    This might be of particular interest as it is about the main topic of these merged threads: J1 in Italy.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    If you wish to discuss the Etruscans, please post in this thread after reading the posts:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...=yDna+j2+Italy

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    Angela and ThirdTerm, when it comes to Armenian J1:

    I was told, that ~14% of Armenians have J1, including ~7% with L136 and ~7% other subclades.

    However, according to Maciamo's article on J1, the most common Armenian branch is Z1828 (not L136).

    I checked Armenian FTDNA Project, found 70 samples, and both Z1828 and L136 are very common:

    J1a2a Z1828 - 35 samples:

    J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>Z1828>BY69>Z18471 - 3
    J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>Z1828>Z1842 - 6
    J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>Z1828>Z1842>Z18436>CTS1460 - 26

    J1a1b L136 - 27 samples:

    J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>L620+ (probably L136+ as well) - 3
    J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>L620>YSC196>L136>P58>YSC141>Z1885>Z1865>Z643>L147 - 3
    J1 (...) L620>YSC196>L136>P58>YSC141>Z1885>Z1865>Z643>L147>Z2324 - 4
    J1 (...) L620>YSC196>L136>P58>YSC141>Z1885>Z1865>Z643>L147>Z2324>YSC235>CTS 11741>YSC234>L858 - 17

    Other J1 subclades - 8 samples:

    J1 M267>YSC65 - 4
    J1 M267>YSC65>PF7261>PF7257 - 4

    =========================

    Sources:

    This Tree of hg J1 - https://figshare.com/articles/Haplog...ic_tree/741212
    Maciamo's article - http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml
    FTDNA Armenian - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

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    On the other hand, here is Ashkenazi Jewish J1 (but a much larger sample):

    J1a (Z2215) - 396 (17.85% of Ashkenazi Y-DNA, sample 2219), including:

    - J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4b1 (ZS227) - 161
    - J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a6 (YSC76) - 61
    - J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a1 (FGC11) - 9
    - J1a2b3a1 (L816) - 78
    - J1a2b2b1b7 (Z640) - 24
    - other J1a2b2 (Z18297) - 53
    - J1a1b1a1 (PF7263) - 10

    So the main Ashkenazi subclade is J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4 (Z2313 / PF4638).

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    I do agree with Angela about input from the balkans in the Marche region. Some of the 16th century immigrant were called schiavoni and probably came from Croatia and Bosnia, others were called Albanesi and probably came from Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia. I don't know, though, which one of them may have belonged to y haplogroup J2. What I do know is that in the province of Ancona, in the countryside, they made one third of the population during the 16th century. And there was also a greek presence.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

    As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
    http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

    All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

    As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

    There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

    As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.
    Yes, and…? Not once did I say that a certain haplogroup is a guaranteed indicator of ethnicity. I simply stated that there is indeed a correlation. I don't understand why so many people here have misinterpreted that.

    I don't get your argument, which rests on the fact that Haplogroup A has been found only in a few select and very rare cases in Britain, which may well have been the results of African slavery. The fact is that Haplogroup A is incredibly rare outside of the African continent. A few British men, Cypriots, Portuguese (involved in the slave trade), or peninsular Arabs who probably amount to no more than 20 people worldwide is not statistically significant. I stand by my original claim that haplogroup and ethnicity are correlated but not necessarily indicative.

    As a side note I too am sick of this garbage about Europeans getting petty over a certain haplogroup being "European" vs. "non-European". Even I, which was always thought to define Old Europe, is quite possibly native to the Middle East. Indeed, the examples of I in the Middle East mean that it may have split from IJ before entering Europe. Of course, this would have been immediately before it entered the continent, so it was almost there and didn't really spend a lot of time outside. Certain haplogroups, I believe, can be associated quite clearly with certain continents. Others- especially those that originated at the crossroads of several different continents and were dispersed around the area- not so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Last time I checked, Armenia and Azerbaijan are not in Europe.

    Where is the data to support the fact that the J1 in eastern Europe is from Armenians? First of all, you need detailed subclade information, as not all J1 is the same. Some upstream J1 may have come with the Neolithic, or some with the Bronze Age, but if it is in the specifically downstream southern Levant clades, and given that we know that there is IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Poles specifically, and therefore probably with all Slavs, and further given the fact of all the information that has come out about Jews who "passed" into the gentile community in the last 150 years or so, the reality is that the vast percentage of the specifically Middle eastern clades of J1 in eastern Europe are from Jews, not from the small population of Armenians.

    J2 is not most frequent in northern Italy. Only one paper, based on very few samples, even if their methodology was good, found pretty high levels of J2 in one region of central Italy, the Marche.


    The Marche have always had extended contacts with Greece and the Balkans. The J2 distribution mirrors that, in my opinion. As for J1, as I said, you have to look at the subclades. The J1 of our half Italian poster could have come from anywhere at any time. The only thing to do is follow the male line as far back as possible through church records. Beyond that one can only speculate.

    We've discussed these topics repeatedly, as we have the Etruscans. Please use the search engine to find the discussions.

    Here are a few that the posters on this thread might find interesting.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    This might be of particular interest as it is about the main topic of these merged threads: J1 in Italy.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    If you wish to discuss the Etruscans, please post in this thread after reading the posts:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...=yDna+j2+Italy
    I've got a question. Looking at my admixture results from the genographic project, I see I have 68 percent south european, 26 percent asia minor (for them asia minor include also iraq, syria and lebanon), 2 percent north africa and 2 percent arabia.

    There's un unusually high asia minor component. At first I thought there must have been an adoption in the family in the last 3 or 4 generations. But it appears it didn't happen. So I had a look at paternal lineages in italian regions and it looks like there's a split between tuscany and northern Italy which have more than 50 per cent R1b and low percentages of J1 and J2, and on the other hand Marche, Umbria and southern Italy which have much lower R1b percentages and higher proportion of j1 and j2. In particular my region, the Marche, appear to have as you say a very high percentage of J2 but also a fair amount of J1, and also only about 34 percent R1b.

    On this page (I don't know whether it is updated) J1 and J2 make 31 percent in the Marche. Is there any other source where you can find j1 and j2 subclades in that area?

    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

    On eupedia, on the J2 article, they say that J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

    What do you think about my 26 percent asia minor component? The genographic project doesn't appear to have an Italian admixture, but in iberia and greece they have 4 an 9 percent asia minor. Is it possible that on the central adriatic coast we got some caucasian or levantine admixture which mixed with italics of central Italy?

    Another question. I have traced my surname back to just a couple of villages in the province of Ancona and Urbino. They were there at least since the 18th century. After the black death of the 14th and 15th century we got a massive migration of croatian, albanians and other from the balkans but also of jews from iberia and southern Italy. They replaced part of the losses. According to the GP I have 0 percent jewish diaspora. Since my paternal lineage is L858 can I rule out forgotten jewish ancestry? Is it reliable? How much of my admixture comes from my Y dna, is it 1 or 2 percent?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 06-09-16 at 23:45.

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    Are you kidding? You're posting almost identical yDna, mtDna and supposed "Asia Minor" scores as those posted by Azzuro? You think because they're not precisely identical and you say you're from the Marche that we won't think you are posting under two names. You're not aware of the rules here against having sock accounts?

    You also are violating Eupedia rules by not posting the flag which corresponds with your IP address, which is France.

    FIX it.

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    Better leave her alone she'll ban yo ass. lol
    Last edited by Angela; 07-09-16 at 03:07.
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    So I had a look at paternal lineages in italian regions and it looks like there's a split between tuscany and northern Italy which have more than 50 per cent R1b and low percentages of J1 and J2, and on the other hand Marche, Umbria and southern Italy which have much lower R1b percentages and higher proportion of j1 and j2. In particular my region, the Marche, appear to have as you say a very high percentage of J2 but also a fair amount of J1, and also only about 34 percent R1b.

    On this page (I don't know whether it is updated) J1 and J2 make 31 percent in the Marche. Is there any other source where you can find j1 and j2 subclades in that area?

    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

    On eupedia, on the J2 article, they say that J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

    What do you think about my 26 percent asia minor component? The genographic project doesn't appear to have an Italian admixture, but in iberia and greece they have 4 an 9 percent asia minor. Is it possible that on the central adriatic coast we got some caucasian or levantine admixture which mixed with italics of central Italy?

    Another question. I have traced my surname back to just a couple of villages in the province of Ancona and Urbino. They were there at least since the 18th century. After the black death of the 14th and 15th century we got a massive migration of croatian, albanians and other from the balkans but also of jews from iberia and southern Italy. They replaced part of the losses. According to the GP I have 0 percent jewish diaspora. Since my paternal lineage is L858 can I rule out forgotten jewish ancestry? Is it reliable? How much of my admixture comes from my Y dna, is it 1 or 2 percent?
    The genographic project has an Italian admixture, the Tuscans who are central Italian. Also the Sardinians are covered by the genographic project.

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    There doesn't seem to be an option to close my account. I do not wish to have an account here. Please, close my account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    There doesn't seem to be an option to close my account. I do not wish to have an account here. Please, close my account.
    You say it's a total coincidence that TWO supposed Italian-Americans have extremely similar mtDna and yDna subclades, and "Asia Minor" scores on Nat Geo, and they both happen to post around the same time, except that when Azzuro is posting, Patrizio 22 is very silent, but as soon as Azzuro is banned, Patrizio 22 shows up again.

    OK, I'll play along, you're two totally different people. It's just a complete coincidence. Next.

    You were asked to make your flag match your IP address, which is Paris, France. That is a long standing Eupedia rule. No exceptions. You didn't do it. One infraction.

    You went on a tirade and posted insults against a team member. Second infraction.

    Keep going...at ten points you have an automatic ban. You can reach that with one or two posts.

    As for closing accounts, there's no way to do it to my knowledge. Sikelliot has rather made this request a hallmark of sites where he posts. Perhaps we should set the lyrics to music.

    In terms of the substance of your question, since the data you present is virtually indistinguishable from that presented by Azzuro, the answer will be about the same. By all means ask any questions that would clarify matters if you don't understand those answers.

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    I don't know why 'Semitic' is still used in scientific circles. It is a fake Biblical race. Noah had thee sons: Shem, Ham and Japhteth (?). Ham was supposedly banished to Africa and his descendants are most likely Haplogroup E. Now Noah must also be Haplogroup E and his other two sons. The human race descended from these guys. From Shem we get the Semites and the rest of the world from Japhteth. We should all be Haplogroup E i.e. the males. So Semites is a fairy tale race as much as Noah.

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