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Thread: Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

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    Question italian j1, questions about my haplogroup

    Hello,

    I'm from central Italy, Marche region on the Adriatic Coast, According to the Genographic Project my paternal lineage is J-Z1884 which should be J1. My maternal line is U5a1a1. I'm from a indoeuropean celtic/italic area but we are on the Appenine mountains which have a tradition of sheepherders. In Italy we had the Etruscans in Tuscany and the ancient Greeks in the south who should have partially anatolian origins. We didn't have major arabic invasions except in parts of Sicily where they were later chased away by the Normans. I know that in the appenines we have J1, G2a and T.

    Is my haplogroup J1? Has it a neolithic origin carried by farmers from the middle east? Could it have Greek or Etruscan origins? As I said in central and northern Italy we didn't have arabic invasions after the fall of the roman empire. I'm not an expert, just an italian interested in prehistory and don't find any information about this particular haplogroup.

    Please, help,

    Thanks,

    Regards,

    Patrizio22

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello,

    I'm from central Italy, Marche region on the Adriatic Coast, According to the Genographic Project my paternal lineage is J-Z1884 which should be J1. My maternal line is U5a1a1. I'm from a indoeuropean celtic/italic area but we are on the Appenine mountains which have a tradition of sheepherders. In Italy we had the Etruscans in Tuscany and the ancient Greeks in the south who should have partially anatolian origins. We didn't have major arabic invasions except in parts of Sicily where they were later chased away by the Normans. I know that in the appenines we have J1, G2a and T.

    Is my haplogroup J1? Has it a neolithic origin carried by farmers from the middle east? Could it have Greek or Etruscan origins? As I said in central and northern Italy we didn't have arabic invasions after the fall of the roman empire. I'm not an expert, just an italian interested in prehistory and don't find any information about this particular haplogroup.

    Please, help,

    Thanks,

    Regards,

    Patrizio22
    Hello, I have found out that my haplogroup J-Z1884 is J1, comes along the line after P58 and is 5300 years old. From my haplogroup separated about 4600 years ago three haplogroups, two are found in Europe and west Asia (J1-YSC76 and J1-Z640) and the other is the semitic branch J1-FGC11 which is linked to islam and jews and arabic countries.
    So, if my haplogroup precedes the semitic branch, it shouldn't be linked to medieval muslim invasions which are absent in central Italy.

    Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy? Central italy has belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century so it wasn't the best turistic destination for medieval muslims. Is it late neolithic farmers? I don't know whether the source is reliable, a web site. I'm not authorized to copy a link here.

    The website is haplogruplarwordpress and the article is Haplogroup J1 (J1-M267)

    Any opinion? I'm not really an expert.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post


    Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy?
    Nobody knows yet.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, I have found out that my haplogroup J-Z1884 is J1, comes along the line after P58 and is 5300 years old. From my haplogroup separated about 4600 years ago three haplogroups, two are found in Europe and west Asia (J1-YSC76 and J1-Z640) and the other is the semitic branch J1-FGC11 which is linked to islam and jews and arabic countries.
    So, if my haplogroup precedes the semitic branch, it shouldn't be linked to medieval muslim invasions which are absent in central Italy.

    Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy? Central italy has belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century so it wasn't the best turistic destination for medieval muslims. Is it late neolithic farmers? I don't know whether the source is reliable, a web site. I'm not authorized to copy a link here.
    ...
    Welcome to Eupedia!

    I gather that you are afraid that J-Z1884 is, or should be considered to be, Semitic and/or Middle Eastern. Things don't quite work like that. Many haplogroups seem to have spent some time in the region now called the Middle East. Some were Semitic, others weren't. Some men stayed, some didn't. Some left centuries or millennia before the rise of Judaism and Islam. Some came back generations later.

    As you mentioned, the branch most closely associated with Semitic peoples is a different one from the one you have. You can't simply say, "J1, oh that's Arab and/or Jewish" any more than you can say "R1b, oh that's Celtic", "I1? OMG Vikings!!11!1!one", or "R1a, must be Russian, da".

    Here are some things to get you started:

    Detailed SNP map of J, at the J-Z1884 node: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/
    The same SNP map, at J-P58: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/
    Eupedia article on J1: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Like Lebrok posted, nobody has a good idea what J1's history is. Lots of ancient DNA is needed to understand the origins/history of J1. There's already an example of J1*(J1 branch that is rare or extinct today) in Russia dating 7,500 years and Georgia dating 13,000 years. Like you said Z1884 is under P58 which is typical for Semetic speakers, but like RobertColumbia posted that doesn't mean your J1 is Semetic. It is very unlikely your paternal line is from Medieval Arabic Muslims, it's probably from different West Asian people who arrived earlier and could have been Semetic.

    My guess is most J1 in Italy and the rest of Europe arrived after 4000 BC from West Asia. It looks like post-4000 BC West Asian ancestry is significant part of the genetic origins Italy and areas surrounding Greece. It could represent 1/3 or slightly more of total ancestry. If many people from West Asia(maybe Turkey or Levant-Israel area) settled in Italy between 4000 BC and 500 BC, that'd mean they're the main source of Y DNA J and E1b in Italy today.

    EDIT: Your mtDNA U5a1a1, is a dead-ringer for Ancient Russia/Ukraine. DNA from old bones documents its origins in that region and migration to the rest of Europe around 5,000-4,000 years ago.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks
    IIRC the southern part of Marche was settled by South Picene people who had Sabellic speech but where of Sabine and sabellic stock
    Marche was known in ancient times as the Picenum territory.
    North Picene was as some say from Liburnian-illyrian stock.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picenum

    http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/s/sabellic.html

    I think the north Picene was settled later by gallic semnones tribe
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Hello. Yeah, the first settlers considered indoeuropeans were the italic tribes who came from north of the Alps 1200 years BC and occupied most of Italy. That's what they say. The gauls came from north of the Alps about 400 BC and occupied the northern Italian area up to the middle of my region which was probably previously all italic (picentes). Tuscany, on the western side, was instead still occupied by the Etruscans. So, it could be that some of those italic were not indoeuropeans after all. Thanks, I'll check out that Illyrian thing

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    Ok, so, he south of the Adriatic coast was colonized by the Illyrians and apparently in that region (Puglia) they have an awful lot of J1. The Illyrians are regarded as indoeuropeans but perhaps coming from the balkans carried also J1.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Good find: the total frequency of the haplgroup J1 is 0.7% in Italy. I really don't know much about your subclade though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Europe


    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Like Lebrok posted, nobody has a good idea what J1's history is. Lots of ancient DNA is needed to understand the origins/history of J1. There's already an example of J1*(J1 branch that is rare or extinct today) in Russia dating 7,500 years and Georgia dating 13,000 years. Like you said Z1884 is under P58 which is typical for Semetic speakers, but like RobertColumbia posted that doesn't mean your J1 is Semetic. It is very unlikely your paternal line is from Medieval Arabic Muslims, it's probably from different West Asian people who arrived earlier and could have been Semetic.


    My guess is most J1 in Italy and the rest of Europe arrived after 4000 BC from West Asia. It looks like post-4000 BC West Asian ancestry is significant part of the genetic origins Italy and areas surrounding Greece. It could represent 1/3 or slightly more of total ancestry. If many people from West Asia(maybe Turkey or Levant-Israel area) settled in Italy between 4000 BC and 500 BC, that'd mean they're the main source of Y DNA J and E1b in Italy today.


    EDIT: Your mtDNA U5a1a1, is a dead-ringer for Ancient Russia/Ukraine. DNA from old bones documents its origins in that region and migration to the rest of Europe around 5,000-4,000 years ago.

    Haplogroups J2, J1 and E1b1b have been found both in Neoltich and Mesolitich remains in Europe.

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    Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks
    For traits that are expressed in autosomal DNA (that is, nearly all of them), there should be a half and half contribution from each parent. Due to the randomness that happens during each generation, this does not mean that you will have exactly 25% of your autosomal DNA from each grandparent, because the DNA of each of your parents was "mixed up" at the time of your conception and you might have, e.g., received more of dad's mom and mom's dad (and less of dad's dad and mom's mom) due to the "roll of the dice", as they say. 50% of your autosomal DNA still came from each parent, but that 50% might favor one grandparent or the other. Consider this analogy. Put 10 red balls and 10 blue balls in a jar, shake them up, and then draw 10 balls at random (put them back afterwards). Will you always get exactly 5 red and 5 blue out? No. Does the jar still contain an equal number of red and blue balls? Yes.

    In my own family, it has been observed that my face is very similar to my father's father and that my brother's face looks similar to my mother's father. We both have y-haplogroup R-M222 and mt-haplogroup H1bi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks
    the 50 -50 split is with your mother only............beyond this the split halves again and again and again.............
    on your mums side it comes from maternal and paternal

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    J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
    Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

    http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista..../genitaly.html

    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Hello. According to the scientific articles you may read, it looks like five different middle-eastern of north african lineages living in different places decided all together to come to greece and italy exactly 8000 years ago, probably on the same day. They must have gone to the same travel agent. I think it's more complicated. Probably they kept coming through the bronze and even iron age. Anyway, in central and southern italy around the appennine mountains the most common cheese is pecorino, sheep milk cheese. It must be linked to sheep herders from the middle east. You find the some cheese in Sardinia which has the most neolithic people in europe along with the basque region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks
    Phoenicians settled in Sardinia (six colonies) and in the western tip of Sicily (two colonies) but I think they mostly carried J2 because modern Lebanon is pred J2 while some J1 there entered via Arabians (Ghassanids and muslim conquest).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
    Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

    http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista..../genitaly.html

    thanks

    I read the link, but where is this chart?

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    It's the italian project made by Ethnopedia Facebook page

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    Hello, there's also the Eupedia website but I don't know whether is reliable. There's a spreadsheet of italian haplogroups by regions in Eupedia on Eupedia home/Genetics/Haplogroups Home/Italian genetics. Sorry but I'm a new member and can't paste links. The article is called genetic history of the italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello, there's also the Eupedia website but I don't know whether is reliable. There's a spreadsheet of italian haplogroups by regions in Eupedia on Eupedia home/Genetics/Haplogroups Home/Italian genetics. Sorry but I'm a new member and can't paste links. The article is called genetic history of the italians.
    I know, if you look at the percentages are similar to the Ethnopedia's table. At the same time the same studies like Boattini, Brisighelli and many others had similar percentages.

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    A Vittorio questo qui è di sicuro o Dejan o Marco Sernesi. Mi ricordo che apri threads simili sulla fogna e Peyrol confermo la sua reale origine.

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    Hello, my family name is Brega and is present in Italy just in milan and Ancona, in central italy. I don't which one of the two it came from. I know it existed in Milan during the middle ages. But I have just found out that, outside of Italy, there are Brega in Moldova, which is one of the hotspots of J1 along with the area of Hungary (see map of J1 in Europe). So perhaps this may be a east european J1 route from the Middle east, perhaps medieval. During the middle ages current family name already existed. Is it an absurd explanation?

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    Patrizio 22: Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks
    That isn't how it works. The genes which code for "appearance" if that's what you mean by "traits" are in your autosomal dna; they aren't carried by your mtDna or yDna. Whatever you inherit from your mother in terms of autosomal inheritance comes from all of her ancestors, male and female, and the same is true for your father. Your mtDna and yDna ancestors are only two lines out of many.

    Let's take a simple example. Let's say that a person has maternal ancestry from the Cape Verde Islands. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but the people there have quite a bit of SSA admixture. It shows up in autosomal tests, and also shows up in "appearance". I once went to a Cape Verdean festival in Massachusetts, and you can clearly see it in these people. However, the mtDna of some of them might be a totally unremarkable mtDna "H" subclade common in Portugal. (Of course, it could also be mtDna L3) The SSA could have entered through the paternal ancestors of the mother, or could indeed have entered through a maternal line, but not the one represented by the mtDna. Do you see how it can work?

    If you follow this link you can access a lot of "beginner's guides" to the whole subject of genetic genealogy. You might find them useful.
    http://isogg.org/wiki/Beginners'_gui...etic_genealogy

    Anyway, in central and southern italy around the appennine mountains the most common cheese is pecorino, sheep milk cheese. It must be linked to sheep herders from the middle east. You find the some cheese in Sardinia which has the most neolithic people in europe along with the basque region.
    I take it you're not an afficionado of cheese? :) Have you ever heard of Roquefort, Manchego, or, if you're in a goat cheese mood, feta, chèvre (Bucheron), garrotxa...well, I could go on and on. Spain is actually the largest producer of sheep cheeses. Are you going to attribute it to J1 sheep herders? Bucheron is made in the Loire Valley, feta in, obviously, Greece. I'm not aware of any "Arabic" domination of those areas.

    The goat, the sheep, and the cow were all domesticated in the Near East and were all brought to Europe by Neolithic farmers.
    http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/images/r4_468.png

    This is a paper on domesticated animals in the Early Neolithic in the Balkans:
    http://www.academia.edu/4124374/Anim...Central_Europe

    Animal Herding in the Balkan Neolithic:
    http://www.academia.edu/1517144/Herd...lkan_Neolithic

    Although there are nutritional pros and cons to the milk of all these animals, in one thing the cow has the others beat hands down, and that's in the total quantity of milk they can produce, which makes sense given the size differential. However, the downside is that they require a great deal of food, huge quantities of grass or hay or even better, grain. In certain parts of Europe that's just not to be had. Terrain and climate dictate what you grow and which animals you domesticate, the "terroir", or at least they did. That's why in rural Emilia there are more cows than people, but in Liguria and the Lunigiana people could only manage a cow or two for personal use, and sometimes not even that, and the vast majority of cheeses are made from either sheep's milk or goat's milk. Oh, and we don't have much J1 at all. :)

    It's easy, in the beginning, without an understanding of the causes of certain economic paradigms or cultural manifestations, to draw false conclusions. For example, I recently read a post elsewhere where someone, after listening to some "Ashkenazi' music and some "Sicilian" music, saw some similarities between them and tried to use that as "proof" of gene sharing between them. This totally ignores the fact, as others pointed out, that cultural flow, particularly in the modern era, can have absolutely nothing to do with gene flow. More directly, if this person knew anything about European music, he would have known that the two pieces of music were both influenced by music forms created in eastern Europe. Do you know how much Italian "folk" music is set to mazurkas and polkas? Why, the older folks wouldn't be able to dance at summer festivals if all such music was removed from the program. :) *The same thing happened with the "jig". It was created or evolved in 16th century England. From there it spread to Ireland, France, Italy etc. (the French gigue, the Italian giga) This isn't proof of any gene flow or sharing between them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig

    Hello. According to the scientific articles you may read, it looks like five different middle-eastern of north african lineages living in different places decided all together to come to greece and italy exactly 8000 years ago, probably on the same day. They must have gone to the same travel agent. I think it's more complicated.
    What makes you think we don't recognize that this is all very complicated? See:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Post+Neolithic

    As for the yDna of the Neolithic, you might want to read Iain Mathiesen et al, which shows that the Anatolian farmers carried various yDna clades, even if the majority were G2a. That doesn't mean there was only one Neolithic wave, necessarily. J2 and the immediate precursor to E-V13 suddenly show up in Europe in the mid-Neolithic.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf

    *Ah, I forgot all the songs based on the German waltz. It's all called ballo liscio in Italian, if anyone is interested, dances (and songs) based on waltzes, mazurkas and polkas. Later on, tangos were added, and there was no mass migration of Argentinians to account for it. :)







    Last edited by Angela; 17-01-16 at 18:30.


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    Hello. You caught me red handed. You got straight away that I'm an absolute beginner in genetics and cheese. Thanks for the useful information.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Hello. You caught me red handed. You got straight away that I'm an absolute beginner in genetics and cheese. Thanks for the useful information.
    Perhaps also music?

    I hope indeed that you're a beginner...we don't take kindly here to people with multiple accounts or people pretending to be someone that they aren't.

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