Debate Why Don't Feminists Fight for Muslim Women ???

[Wanderlust]

Wanderlust,


Yes, they are - and this is genetically determined. So it will most likely NOT change with time.

Liberals do not understand, that every temperamental trait is under strong genetic influence.

You cannot just mold people into whatever shape you want. We are genetically programmed.

So then you discount epigenetics? Because both genetics and epigenetics play an important role in who we are and what we do. It's foolish to overstate nature just as it foolish to overstate nurture. Both matter.

Autosomally and temperamentally, the "hunter-gatherer" in me is strong. And as far back as I can trace on paper, I come from people who've always had impulses and drives not necessarily suited to restrictive and sedentary environments. Frankly, I'm pretty predisposed to apathy and aggression, and subsequently violence and brutality :shocked:. And yet I live in a society that finds even raising one's voice to be abhorrent. In my opinion, both extremes don't serve the modern world. Arguing and confrontation are fine as long as there is an underlying respect and civility that ideally, don't result in needless bloodshed. Regardless, I believe that humanity is better served through care and cooperation. Therefore, I choose to curtail and control genetic and epigenetic impulses, on behalf of the greater good. People most certainly can be molded and shaped.

Personally, I believe that sole reliance on genetic determinism encourages laziness and lets people off of the hook too easily. There are cases where genetics are insurmountable (I have family members with aggressive Cystic Fibrosis) but there are also plenty of caveats that only environment and free will can provide.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I never said or even implied that Muslims did not conquer or colonize like Christians because that would be egregiously preposterous and inaccurate. They were just as terrible in their own right. What I also said is that similarly to Christians, Muslims are experiencing "universal karma" for their previous exploits. I have never paternalized them or portrayed them to be blameless victims.

well it certainly seemed to me like that

Europe did take 600 years to free themselves from religious dogmas
I don't think Muslims are anywhere near that point
Look at Turkey. It was beaten after WW I and it started to become secular.
Now it is turning into a fascist Muslim state.
Look at youtube to the speeches Nasser gave 60 years ago and see what the Muslim brotherhood has done to that country.

You say Islam never had the chance to reform. It has had more chances than Christians, but every reform in Islam is countered by fundamentalism.
It seems to me most Muslims have accepted this as their karma.
If secular society wins, they keep low profile.
If fundamentalism wins, they'll submit to that without revolt.

 

[gyms]

Wanderlust:"3.) Humanity has always benefited from the intimate exchange of different ideas and methods, some of which can only come from perspectives arrived at the world over."

Absolutely!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykbJOXxyGho

 

[Wanderlust]

you forget to tell that most refugees that entered Europe last year and early this year didn't do so out of necessity
they came because they believed the stories of human trafickers who promised them they would get in Europe free housing an a very nice wellpaid job, even if they had no qualifications at all
that is why so many are dissapointed and are starting to return to their home country

Like I said, the people were in need, obviously. If they had adequate jobs, shelter, and good life prospects in their home countries, they wouldn't be willing to uproot themselves and leave, at dangerous costs to themselves, right? Some refugees had bombs exploding over their heads and others just wanted a better job and decent living conditions. They can't be faulted for wanting something better. Most immigrants have that in common.

so, I don't know whether Sweden got so many immigrants because other countries didn't pull their weight, maybe Sweden was more naive than other countries

You're wrong. It is because other European countries were not pulling their weight.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...er-strain-from-european-migration-crisis.html

"The United Nations reported that more than one million refugees and migrants fled to Europe in 2015, half a million of whom were escaping the Syrian war. The burden to absorb these migrants has been distributed unevenly."

and about cultures that need change, I don't say everything is perfect in Europe, but it is not Europe that should change, it is the countries where these people come from that should change
and people that come to Europe as a host should adapt themselves to Europe and not the other way

I think that all good house guests should adapt to reasonable house rules. But I also think that any good host will cater to his guests and make sure that they are comfortable and adequately cared for. Both the host and the hosted must make an effort to be considerate to the other. Just because someone extends you a kindness, does not mean that you are beholden to them and their every whim. But usually, kind deeds motivate people to acquiesce.

if they come they should adapt furthermore people should be stimulated to return and rebuild their country as soon as it is possible
and if Europe is able to intervene military or in another way to help restore stability in any of these countries it should do so

Agreed.

 

[gyms]

You're wrong. It is because other European countries were not pulling their weight.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-crisis.html

"The United Nations reported that more than one million refugees and migrants fled to Europe in 2015, half a million of whom were escaping the Syrian war. The burden to absorb these migrants has been distributed unevenly."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...gees-George-Soros-Hungary-Viktor-Orban-Europe

EUROPEAN Union supporter George Soros has claimed Europe should take "at least a million" refugees every year and let them choose where they want to live.
The human rights activist, who is a notable backer of the European Union, called on the EU to accept more refugees and cover the cost of housing health care and education for each refugee for the first two years.
The billionaire businessman was last week accused by Hungary's prime minister of deliberately encouraging the migration crisis.

 

[Wanderlust]

well it certainly seemed to me like that

Fortunately, perception isn't fact.

Europe did take 600 years to free themselves from religious dogmas
I don't think Muslims are anywhere near that point
Look at Turkey. It was beaten after WW I and it started to become secular.
Now it is turning into a fascist Muslim state.
Look at youtube to the speeches Nasser gave 60 years ago and see what the Muslim brotherhood has done to that country.

You say Islam never had the chance to reform. It has had more chances than Christians, but every reform in Islam is countered by fundamentalism.
It seems to me most Muslims have accepted this as their karma.
If secular society wins, they keep low profile.
If fundamentalism wins, they'll submit to that without revolt.

What people like you consistently gloss over or ignore altogether in these conversations, are:

1.) The massive roles the US and Europe have played in destabilizing the Middle East by virtue of interventionist policies meant to keep the region strategically, economically, and politically tied to the West, regardless of the disastrous effects on the sovereignty of the people in the region (which incidentally, figures like Nasser sought--sovereignty from the west). The fact of the matter is that the Middle East and North Africa are worse off now than they were before the increased involvement of the US and its Nato allies. This destabilization has allowed groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS to form, coalesce, gain power and popularity, particularly when contextually, they seem to be opposing Western dominance and its puppet politicians in the East.

2.) The socio-cultural identity politics that lie at the root of much of the dysfunction in Muslim nations. Muslims are not monolithic in belief, and most certainly not in ethnicity, nationality, culture and social class, which also factor greatly. Particularly in countries like Turkey, that have a much closer relationship to Christian Europe, there has been a tension between secular, middle-class, materialistic, Christian European values and the more conservative, traditional values of the Muslim East and this is still being reconciled. Because of the Christian reformation, Christianity is not attached to the identity of most Europeans in an all encompassing, core defining way--no, it's more individualized and therefore, comes with less judgmental, identity angst. That's not the case for many other religious groups in the world, including Muslims, who see being Muslim as more central to them than their ethnicity. But because of globalization (increased proximity to other cultures and belief systems) and the internet (access to different ideas and ways of thinking), Muslims are now individualizing what Islam means for them and contextualizing it depending on who they are (gender, sexuality, nationality) and where they live, in ways that have nothing to do with often fundamentalist, centralized power structures, like Imams that used to function as their sole authority (similarly to Catholics and the Pope). That is liberating and reforming. Going back to my previous point, now is the right time, more than ever before, for Islamic reformation in an earth moving way, which I believe will produce more progressive values.

 

[gyms]

Wanderlust:"And quite frankly, some cultures need to change."

Yes.

Migrants Attack 60 Minutes Crew In Sweden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42jpuXJPk0w

During a trip to the Swedish suburbs of Rinkeby and Husby two NRK-reporters were attacked with rocks and threatened by masked youth
They were aiming for the police. We were never hit by the rocks, says cameraman Mohammed Alayoubi. The most dramatic incident happened as we came along with the police inside a car park, where they were arresting kids dealing drugs. The kids were masked and extremely aggressive. They have no respect for the police and really disliked that we were there as well, says Alayoubi.

Norwegian Broadcasting visiting Husby, Sweden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTRMKQ6-sLk

 

[Wanderlust]

Wanderlust:"And quite frankly, some cultures need to change."

Yes.

The Vikings have become such wimps. lol Does that scare or intimidate you? Not one of them threw a proper punch. :useless: I'd hardly consider myself terrified.

I do think that Somalis are particularly problematic in that they are warlike and tribal and the refugees tend to have a healthy smattering of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder on top of it--which one would expect, considering the circumstances from which they come.

But this is the problem with humanitarianism--we're forced to have compassion for people who may be too psychologically wounded to care or be appreciative. And even worse, they may bite the hand that feeds them. But it's not humanitarianism if there are strings attached; then, it's just doing good things so that people think we're good when in actuality, we aren't, we just want to look that way.

Like most Swedes who have lived very privileged lives, it's hard to understand why someone would be so "mean" to you when you are being so "nice" to them. Cry me a river. Again, these are wounded people whose cultures and values are much harsher. Just because they have been removed from an even worse situation, doesn't mean they abandon the psychological scars overnight. It takes time. Why don't people get that? Doing the right thing is usually not easy; that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done anyway.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Fortunately, perception isn't fact.



What people like you consistently gloss over or ignore altogether in these conversations, are:

1.) The massive roles the US and Europe have played in destabilizing the Middle East by virtue of interventionist policies meant to keep the region strategically, economically, and politically tied to the West, regardless of the disastrous effects on the sovereignty of the people in the region (which incidentally, figures like Nasser sought--sovereignty from the west). The fact of the matter is that the Middle East and North Africa are worse off now than they were before the increased involvement of the US and its Nato allies. This destabilization has allowed groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS to form, coalesce, gain power and popularity, particularly when contextually, they seem to be opposing Western dominance and its puppet politicians in the East.

2.) The socio-cultural identity politics that lie at the root of much of the dysfunction in Muslim nations. Muslims are not monolithic in belief, and most certainly not in ethnicity, nationality, culture and social class, which also factor greatly. Particularly in countries like Turkey, that have a much closer relationship to Christian Europe, there has been a tension between secular, middle-class, materialistic, Christian European values and the more conservative, traditional values of the Muslim East and this is still being reconciled. Because of the Christian reformation, Christianity is not attached to the identity of most Europeans in an all encompassing, core defining way--no, it's more individualized and therefore, comes with less judgmental, identity angst. That's not the case for many other religious groups in the world, including Muslims, who see being Muslim as more central to them than their ethnicity. But because of globalization (increased proximity to other cultures and belief systems) and the internet (access to different ideas and ways of thinking), Muslims are now individualizing what Islam means for them and contextualizing it depending on who they are (gender, sexuality, nationality) and where they live, in ways that have nothing to do with often fundamentalist, centralized power structures, like Imams that used to function as their sole authority (similarly to Catholics and the Pope). That is liberating and reforming. Going back to my previous point, now is the right time, more than ever before, for Islamic reformation in an earth moving way, which I believe will produce more progressive values.

is the west responsable for the constant clashes between shi'ites and sunni?
the truth is these people are obsessed with their own wholy truth and are not ripe for democracy nor reason
they were better of with tyrants like Khadafi and Saddam Hussein
but optimistic people - like you? - cheered Arab spring and US and EU governments were stupid enough to get involved

and I never said Muslims are all alike, I just see what is happening in many Muslim countries
and I notice the attitude of some (not just a few) of the Muslim immigrants in Europe

I think your analyses of the psyche of the individual Muslim in a changing world is more wishfull thinking from your side than unravelling the factual truth which is unknown

 

[bicicleur 2]

You're wrong. It is because other European countries were not pulling their weight.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...on-crisis.html

"The United Nations reported that more than one million refugees and migrants fled to Europe in 2015, half a million of whom were escaping the Syrian war. The burden to absorb these migrants has been distributed unevenly."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...gees-George-Soros-Hungary-Viktor-Orban-Europe

EUROPEAN Union supporter George Soros has claimed Europe should take "at least a million" refugees every year and let them choose where they want to live.
The human rights activist, who is a notable backer of the European Union, called on the EU to accept more refugees and cover the cost of housing health care and education for each refugee for the first two years.
The billionaire businessman was last week accused by Hungary's prime minister of deliberately encouraging the migration crisis.

he should run for President of the EU and see if he gets a mandate for that from all Europeans
or he should buy a big island with all his money and house and cater all those refugees over there

 

[bicicleur 2]

The Vikings have become such wimps. lol Does that scare or intimidate you? Not one of them threw a proper punch. :useless: I'd hardly consider myself terrified.

I do think that Somalis are particularly problematic in that they are warlike and tribal and the refugees tend to have a healthy smattering of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder on top of it--which one would expect, considering the circumstances from which they come.

But this is the problem with humanitarianism--we're forced to have compassion for people who may be too psychologically wounded to care or be appreciative. And even worse, they may bite the hand that feeds them. But it's not humanitarianism if there are strings attached; then, it's just doing good things so that people think we're good when in actuality, we aren't, we just want to look that way.

Like most Swedes who have lived very privileged lives, it's hard to understand why someone would be so "mean" to you when you are being so "nice" to them. Cry me a river. Again, these are wounded people whose cultures and values are much harsher. Just because they have been removed from an even worse situation, doesn't mean they abandon the psychological scars overnight. It takes time. Why don't people get that? Doing the right thing is usually not easy; that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done anyway.

ah, come on
why don't you stop looking for excuses?

 

[gyms]

Wanderlust,this is not "humanitarianism".This is craziness.They are mostly illegal immigrants not refugees.

Even EU officials are now finally admitting that a lot – or, rather, most – of the people we have been calling ‘refugees’ are not refugees. They are economic migrants with no more right to be called European citizens than anybody else in the world. Even Frans Timmermans, Vice President of the European Commission, made this point this week. In his accounting, at least 60pc of the people who are here are economic migrants who should not be here – are from North African states such as Morocco and Tunisia. As he told Dutch television:-

“These are people that you can assume have no reason to apply for refugee status.”
​

Swedish officials are coming to a similar conclusion, saying that as many as 80,000 of the mainly young men who have gone to Sweden as ‘refugees’ in the past year alone are no such thing.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/0...the-trouble-our-continent-is-descending-into/


Sweden's immigration agency (Migrationsverket) is powerless to enforce deportation orders, says a spokesman for the organisation, as more than 11,000 asylum seekers go underground in Sweden

An increasing proportion of refugees due to be deported from Sweden are instead disappearing. Last year Migrationsverket decided to expel more than 20,000 people. But the proportion of those leaving the country voluntarily after the expulsion order was reduced to 41%.
http://www.thelocal.se/20150503/more-illegal-immigrants-going-underground-in-sweden

 

[bicicleur 2]

Like I said, the people were in need, obviously. If they had adequate jobs, shelter, and good life prospects in their home countries, they wouldn't be willing to uproot themselves and leave, at dangerous costs to themselves, right? Some refugees had bombs exploding over their heads and others just wanted a better job and decent living conditions. They can't be faulted for wanting something better. Most immigrants have that in common.



You're wrong. It is because other European countries were not pulling their weight.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...er-strain-from-european-migration-crisis.html

"The United Nations reported that more than one million refugees and migrants fled to Europe in 2015, half a million of whom were escaping the Syrian war. The burden to absorb these migrants has been distributed unevenly."



I think that all good house guests should adapt to reasonable house rules. But I also think that any good host will cater to his guests and make sure that they are comfortable and adequately cared for. Both the host and the hosted must make an effort to be considerate to the other. Just because someone extends you a kindness, does not mean that you are beholden to them and their every whim. But usually, kind deeds motivate people to acquiesce.



Agreed.

so whoever believes he has no future in his home country should come to Europe and be provided with shelter and all necessary cares?
they should even get European citizenship?

 

[gyms]

World's refugees and displaced exceed record 60 million: U.N.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-refugees-idUSKBN0U10CV20151218

Merkel:"WIR SCHAFFEN DAS."

 

[Tomenable]

Wanderlust,

Is not wanting your family to die cowardice?

Show me where do you see families (ca. 70% or more of "refugees" are young adult males of military age):

 

[Garrick]

I'm not ok with anyone hating people of other cultures,

But, people see situation, every day, every week, every month... A lot of areas in the Balkans are more islamized today (territorially expanded) than 20 years ago. And not only in the Balkans. You know in the Middle East whole non-Muslim populations disappeared in front of our eyes (Assyrians, Yazids etc.). And in Europe no-go zones rise what for example this British source reports (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/657520/Europe-no-go-900-EU-areas-police-lost-control).

Yes it would be ideal that between different cultures and civilization is harmony, and Wanderlust have beautiful ideas, but unfortunately reality is different.

Pope Benedict wanted honest dialogue with Muslim prelates. He wanted discussion about some key questions. And unfortunately silence in the other side occured despite his great and sincere wishes.

What do you think why? Because nobody in Ulama can change Quran and Hadith. Nobody can change propositions about believers and unbelievers (kafirs); types of unbelievers: people of the book (Christians, Jews, Sabians) who have right to live but as dhimmis, second order citizens with numerous restrictions including special tax - jizya, and others: polytheists, atheists, etc. which position is incomparably worse.

Nobody can change propositions about Dar al-Islam: territory where Muslims rule with Sharia law (practically Muslim countries), Dar al-Harb: territory where Muslim compete with non-Muslim for domination (practically zone of war), etc.

Nobody can change propositions about jihad which is in purpose of Muslim expansion and it can be practiced in many ways (including violent and non-violent and spiritual forms). Etc.

And nobody (what is important for this thread) cannot change regulations of males, females and family which are regular part of Sharia law. It is completely vain struggle, why someone of non-Muslims, for example non-Muslim feminists, should interfere in internal Muslim issues.

But pope Benedict is great man. Dialogue is a necessary. It would be ideal if very different civilizations can live in coexistence. But it is very hard and requires a lot of commitment, energy and effort. And carries risks, what all who accept this heavy task must be aware of.

 

[gyms]

Luton is Now a MUSLIM Town With a MUSLIM Mayor!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGdOBKapYuo

New London Mayor: Submit or You Will be Less Safe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaMCFBCAXXI

Welcome to Islamic Republic of Great Britain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z46imVQJejQ

 

[Wanderlust]

Wanderlust,this is not "humanitarianism".This is craziness.They are mostly illegal immigrants not refugees.

Even EU officials are now finally admitting that a lot – or, rather, most – of the people we have been calling ‘refugees’ are not refugees. They are economic migrants with no more right to be called European citizens than anybody else in the world.

ah, come on
why don't you stop looking for excuses?

I'm not making excuses--I'm being a thoughtful person who has a deep and complex understanding of human behavior and the issues at hand. You want me to say, "they are evil, terrible people who should be sent away" but human beings and life are far more complex than that.

Would I rather disaffected, disruptive, maladapted, violent, trouble making refugees/immigrants not be in Europe? YES. I am not blind to the problems they present. I understand Europe's frustrations and concerns. I don't want to deal with crap from ethnic European trouble makers, let alone foreign ones. But again, there are extenuating circumstances. These are poor, usually traumatized people who have no prospects and are just trying to get a leg up. Life has victimized them enough, why would I add to that and return them to misery? Like I said, these types of situations can get messy, unpleasant and uncomfortable, but I'm willing to make some sacrifices.

I do think Sweden needs to stop taking in more, especially for the time being, and focus on the ones that are already here because it is a bit out of control. But every other nation needs to pull their weight.

so whoever believes he has no future in his home country should come to Europe and be provided with shelter and all necessary cares?
they should even get European citizenship?

Isn't that why most immigrants leave their countries? To find a better life? As long as they are willing to work for it, I have no issues. Besides, Europe has taken and stolen enough resources from every other continent for centuries and so yes, yes, we had it coming.

 

[Wanderlust]

is the west responsable for the constant clashes between shi'ites and sunni?

Partly, yes and they've certainly done nothing to stop it. It has been no secret that the United States, particularly, is allied with the predominantly Sunni Gulf States and has backed them even as they've repressed and slaughtered Shi'ites. Who do you think installed Saddam Hussein, a Sunni, over a predominantly Shi'ite nation and then did nothing as he murdered them?

the truth is these people are obsessed with their own wholy truth and are not ripe for democracy nor reason
they were better of with tyrants like Khadafi and Saddam Hussein
but optimistic people - like you? - cheered Arab spring and US and EU governments were stupid enough to get involved

I cheered no such thing. The Arab Spring was most certainly manipulated by the West in order to initiate a pro-Western regime change. And now North Africa is an even worse hellhole than it was before. If you were actually reading and comprehending the things I've said, you'd understand that I think Western interference has been far more destructive than it has been helpful.

I think your analyses of the psyche of the individual Muslim in a changing world is more wishfull thinking from your side than unravelling the factual truth which is unknown

We will see, won't we.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Partly, yes and they've certainly done nothing to stop it. It has been no secret that the United States, particularly, is allied with the predominantly Sunni Gulf States and has backed them even as they've repressed and slaughtered Shi'ites. Who do you think installed Saddam Hussein, a Sunni, over a predominantly Shi'ite nation and then did nothing as he murdered them?



I cheered no such thing. The Arab Spring was most certainly manipulated by the West in order to initiate a pro-Western regime change. And now North Africa is an even worse hellhole than it was before. If you were actually reading and comprehending the things I've said, you'd understand that I think Western interference has been far more destructive than it has been helpful.



We will see, won't we.

Please stop the crap.
Shi'ites and Sunni are killing each other allready 1300 years, from the 3rd Islamic generation, and the west has nothing to do with that.
They are fanatics and everyone that does not agree with them are kafirs.