Debate Why Don't Feminists Fight for Muslim Women ???

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Can we care about oppressed women regardless of their faith?

This is very good question and in terms of thread feminists cannot make more than they make. It is incorrect to blame feminists.

In our civilization based on Judeo-Christian tradition it is normal that feminists criticize everything what threatens women's rights and fight for gender equality. In our civilization is entirely normal gender equality, democracy, freedom of speech, diversity of options, to be a believer or an atheist, etc.

But Islam is entirely different civilization. For example Islam forbids atheists, it is impossible to be an atheist in Islamic society.

I wrote, Quran cannot be changed, role of woman is determined in Quran and Hadith, and Sharia (Islamic law) is derived from Quran and Hadith.

Nobody in Islamic society, man or woman, cannot criticize or change Quran, it is strictly forbidden and consequences are very severe.

Feminists who originate from the civilization based on Judeo-Christian tradition have very limited opportunities to criticize what is happening in Islamic society. It is another faith, system, civilization, Muslim scholars can criticize them that to meddle in another religion, to talk about things they do not understand since they do not practice and do not understand Islam, to act arrogantly imposing their Judeo-Christian or atheist position to Islam, etc. For feminists who originate from the Judeo-Christian tradition is generally not correct to interfere in Islamic issues and question is how much they are competent for it. And after that it is clearer why feminists largely avoid this issues.

Who can? Muslim feminists. And they do. But again we must know basic rules. Muslim feminists are limited by Islamic rules. Role of woman is determined, Islam is male dominant religion and Muslim feminists can move only within these limits.

Different schools of Sharia law may have differences in interpretation. Not all schools think Muslim man can have four woman at a time, for example there is interpretation that he can marry nine woman. But all schools require that Muslim woman can have only one man for husband at a time. Or, Muslim man can have woman another faith but Muslim woman can be married to a Muslim only, if a non-Muslim man wants to marry a Muslim woman he must became Muslim. Etc.

The possible actions of Muslim feminists are very narrowed viewed from the side of someone who is not a Muslim. However civilizations are different, something that is logical and right in one civilization can be completely illogical/invalid in another. Someone can like or dislike Huntington, but he noticed that civilizations differ and it is objective reality.

Huntigton:

"Every civilization sees itself as the center of the world and writes its history as the central drama of human history."
 
It is not just the Muslims, women in South Asia also has severe gender inequalities. Can you go tell them to change their whole culture and system? I don't think you can turn another culture into your culture.

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/pu...ence-against-women-and-girls-around-the-world
And since when giving women equality is the same as changing the whole culture? We will not get anywhere in this discussion if you keep exaggerating to prove your point.
While we at changing cultures, could you explain by what miracle European/Western culture managed to change giving women equality?
 
How many people were killed in christian Europe from year 500 to 2000? You want more of the same? Good plan, lol.
I don't actually want that; I was making a joke to highlight the hypocrisy of moronic leftists who allow in hordes of Muslims who are opposed on the most basic moral level to everything they say to believe in.
 
Can we care about oppressed women regardless of their faith? Shouldn't be a normal human response to suffering and injustice of anyone?

Of course I'm just making the point that Christians do a lot because some classifying all Christians as angry prudes.
 
the hypocrisy of moronic leftists who allow in hordes of Muslims who are opposed on the most basic moral level to everything they say to believe in.

I don't think you understand the liberal world view that well. Open-mindedness, tolerance and inclusivity are hallmarks of liberalism. And in order to be open-minded, one must be tolerant of views contrary to those he or she may hold. Unlike right-wing conservatives, liberals don't demand that everyone look, think, believe and behave as they do--because that would be antithetical to liberalism.

Also, liberals are willing to take risks and make sacrifices for the sake of "the greater good." And in this case, there are far more Muslims simply seeking peace and stability than there are opportunistic rapists, sadists, fanatics and terrorists. Liberals believe that it would be morally wrong and inhumane to deny the many (in need) for the sins of the few. Moreover, liberals ultimately believe that their tolerant and compassionate values will breed further tolerance and compassion, particularly in those who have benefited from it--being "open" encourages "openness" in others. Second and third generation Muslims living in secularized Western nations tend to be more secular and progressive than their forebears; culture is anything but immutable.

And though there will always be a few sociopaths in every bunch who take advantage of kindness/generosity and see it as a sign of weakness to exploit, liberalism is not concerned with stooping/pandering to the lowest common denominator; its ideals are much higher and more humanely broad in scope.
 
I don't think you understand the liberal world view that well. Open-mindedness, tolerance and inclusivity are hallmarks of liberalism. And in order to be open-minded, one must be tolerant of views contrary to those he or she may hold. Unlike right-wing conservatives, liberals don't demand that everyone look, think, believe and behave as they do--because that would be antithetical to liberalism.

Also, liberals are willing to take risks and make sacrifices for the sake of "the greater good." And in this case, there are far more Muslims simply seeking peace and stability than there are opportunistic rapists, sadists, fanatics and terrorists. Liberals believe that it would be morally wrong and inhumane to deny the many (in need) for the sins of the few. Moreover, liberals ultimately believe that their tolerant and compassionate values will breed further tolerance and compassion, particularly in those who have benefited from it--being "open" encourages "openness" in others. Second and third generation Muslims living in secularized Western nations tend to be more secular and progressive than their forebears; culture is anything but immutable.

And though there will always be a few sociopaths in every bunch who take advantage of kindness/generosity and see it as a sign of weakness to exploit, liberalism is not concerned with stooping/pandering to the lowest common denominator; its ideals are much higher and more humanely broad in scope.
I understand everything about it. And that's why I hate it. You can't let in to your country people who have ideals that are fundamentally opposed to yours and expect flawless assimilation. I live in an increasingly Islamic nation and hate every second of it. Then again you are in Sweden. Enjoy your multiculturalism.
 
I don't think you understand the liberal world view that well. Open-mindedness, tolerance and inclusivity are hallmarks of liberalism. And in order to be open-minded, one must be tolerant of views contrary to those he or she may hold. Unlike right-wing conservatives, liberals don't demand that everyone look, think, believe and behave as they do--because that would be antithetical to liberalism.

Also, liberals are willing to take risks and make sacrifices for the sake of "the greater good." And in this case, there are far more Muslims simply seeking peace and stability than there are opportunistic rapists, sadists, fanatics and terrorists. Liberals believe that it would be morally wrong and inhumane to deny the many (in need) for the sins of the few. Moreover, liberals ultimately believe that their tolerant and compassionate values will breed further tolerance and compassion, particularly in those who have benefited from it--being "open" encourages "openness" in others. Second and third generation Muslims living in secularized Western nations tend to be more secular and progressive than their forebears; culture is anything but immutable.

And though there will always be a few sociopaths in every bunch who take advantage of kindness/generosity and see it as a sign of weakness to exploit, liberalism is not concerned with stooping/pandering to the lowest common denominator; its ideals are much higher and more humanely broad in scope.

"Liberal tolerance" has big limitations. There is no place in the U.S. that is more dominated by liberals than American college campuses. They are also the least tolerant places in America. It has gone to quite absurd lengths.

"Tolerance", like "free speech" applies to the whole spectrum of opinion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...79e8e8-d101-11e5-88cd-753e80cd29ad_story.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/11/how-liberals-have-ruined-college.html
 
You can't let in to your country people who have ideals that are fundamentally opposed to yours and expect flawless assimilation.

Who expects "flawless assimilation?" Liberals strive for integration, not assimilation. For one, they don't see non-native cultures and belief systems, by default, as infectious dead tissue in need of sloughing off. And two, reasonable people understand that it can take time (with a few bumps and bruises along the way) for different cultures to acclimate to each other and that's ok. Humans are tribal, narcissistic and stubborn--we need time, hell, even when we look alike, speak the same language and come from a similar place (look at early Irish immigrants in the US). But most importantly, thousands of our fellow human beings (many of whom are women and children) fleeing unimaginable terror will be able to sleep better at night. That's more important than me hating the smell of Doner Kebabs and the sight of Hijabs. After a while, I might even like Doners (I do).

But you know what doesn't help the integration process along? Hatred and fear mongering, which leads me to my next point...


Then again you are in Sweden. Enjoy your multiculturalism.

One would think that a Croat, more than most, would understand the insidiousness of ethnic nationalism and xenophobia and its disastrous consequences. Sweden is home to plenty of Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian refugees (and their descendents) thanks in part to your disdain for multiculturalism.
 
"Liberal tolerance" has big limitations. There is no place in the U.S. that is more dominated by liberals than American college campuses. They are also the least tolerant places in America. It has gone to quite absurd lengths.

"Tolerance", like "free speech" applies to the whole spectrum of opinion.

I totally agree that "tolerance" and "free speech" should apply to everyone and that is what TRUE liberals believe.

The American college campuses are dominated by fascistic minded, agenda driven leftists, who in practice, are not actual liberals. As a society, we tend to use leftist and liberal interchangeably and there is often overlap but the former is more of a dogmatic political affiliation and the latter a worldview and philosophy. Leftists, just like their right winged counterparts at the other end of spectrum, are primarily concerned with maintaining their agendas--unyielding tunnel vision, selective morality and double standards are de rigeur. Liberals are actually open to dissenting views and encourage a debate of ideas.
 
Who expects "flawless assimilation?" Liberals strive for integration, not assimilation. For one, they don't see non-native cultures and belief systems, by default, as infectious dead tissue in need of sloughing off. And two, reasonable people understand that it can take time (with a few bumps and bruises along the way) for different cultures to acclimate to each other and that's ok. Humans are tribal, narcissistic and stubborn--we need time, hell, even when we look alike, speak the same language and come from a similar place (look at early Irish immigrants in the US). But most importantly, thousands of our fellow human beings (many of whom are women and children) fleeing unimaginable terror will be able to sleep better at night. That's more important than me hating the smell of Doner Kebabs and the sight of Hijabs. After a while, I might even like Doners (I do).

But you know what doesn't help the integration process along? Hatred and fear mongering, which leads me to my next point...




One would think that a Croat, more than most, would understand the insidiousness of ethnic nationalism and xenophobia and its disastrous consequences. Sweden is home to plenty of Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian refugees (and their descendents) thanks in part to your disdain for multiculturalism.
Welcome to Eupedia Wandelust. I enjoy your posts. Very refreshing in today's nationalistic and conservative climate of fearful of everything Europeans, and Americans alike.

Unfortunately, many former Yugoslavia members here are the most nationalistic people in Europe. One would assume that after years of killing each other they would learn that peace and tolerance is the only solution of coexistence, but effect was different. And the explanation is that any fight for independance heightens nationalistic feelings in such country. I wish I'm wrong, and most of them learned a lesson, but few disgruntled and disappointed soles voice their nationalistic hatred over safety of internet.
 
I don't think you understand the liberal world view that well. Open-mindedness, tolerance and inclusivity are hallmarks of liberalism. And in order to be open-minded, one must be tolerant of views contrary to those he or she may hold. Unlike right-wing conservatives, liberals don't demand that everyone look, think, believe and behave as they do--because that would be antithetical to liberalism.

Also, liberals are willing to take risks and make sacrifices for the sake of "the greater good." And in this case, there are far more Muslims simply seeking peace and stability than there are opportunistic rapists, sadists, fanatics and terrorists. Liberals believe that it would be morally wrong and inhumane to deny the many (in need) for the sins of the few. Moreover, liberals ultimately believe that their tolerant and compassionate values will breed further tolerance and compassion, particularly in those who have benefited from it--being "open" encourages "openness" in others. Second and third generation Muslims living in secularized Western nations tend to be more secular and progressive than their forebears; culture is anything but immutable.

And though there will always be a few sociopaths in every bunch who take advantage of kindness/generosity and see it as a sign of weakness to exploit, liberalism is not concerned with stooping/pandering to the lowest common denominator; its ideals are much higher and more humanely broad in scope.

I'm afraid you drank the koolaid. Frankly, your attitude will erode and destroy Swedish customs and values. That's the reality, perhaps that's what you want.
You can't compare Irish assimilating to "British" customs on the same level. The country is about a stone's throw away and not really much different from British-American values. The bottom line is Muslim immigrants will soon outnumber Swedes within their own country, that is a fact. They are not going to acclimatize themselves to your customs and traditions. Perhaps in some respects but not the true traditional values. You must be on a lot of drugs man.
 
Welcome to Eupedia Wandelust. I enjoy your posts. Very refreshing in today's nationalistic and conservative climate of fearful of everything Europeans, and Americans alike.

Unfortunately, many former Yugoslavia members here are the most nationalistic people in Europe. One would assume that after years of killing each other they would learn that peace and tolerance is the only solution of coexistence, but effect was different. And the explanation is that any fight for independance heightens nationalistic feelings in such country. I wish I'm wrong, and most of them learned a lesson, but few disgruntled and disappointed soles voice their nationalistic hatred over safety of internet.

Thanks LeBrok, I'm a long time lurker and I enjoy your posts as well. You and Angela are amongst my favorites!

And I completely agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, the anthrofora are rife with bright yet disaffected, emotionally stunted, browbeaten people grasping at straws for any semblance of worth, value, power and relevance. The most angry usually cry the loudest. One thing that unites all of humanity is the common desire for validation and to know that we matter, in ways grandiose or seemingly trivial. But warfare particularly strips away dignity, integrity, self worth and humanity; it doesn't just tear down cities, countries and bodies, it disfigures hearts and minds as well, sometimes irreparably.

Nationalism has always been the cheapest way to feed the (figuratively and literally) starving masses--usually with hot air that bloats them up without providing any true sustenance. As opposed to supplying the people with what they truly need: healthy food, livable wages, decent shelter, adequate healthcare and education, instead they receive filler, high fructose laden pride based on phenotype or bygone civilizations that absolutely do nothing tangibly for their current misbegotten state. It's tragic really.

I've found that trauma can create two distinctive worldviews: one of fear and withdrawal or one of heightened empathy and compassion. It's rather ironic that conservatives are known for being such "tough," "hawkish," and "hardline" badasses when what motivates them at their core is fear and the dread of being consumed by change, the unknown, the other, and every other "boogie man" that threatens the status quo (read: their ultra fragile sense of security). Whereas liberals get criticized for being "bleeding hearts" and "soft," which usually implies some sort of weakness or naivite when it actually takes a lot of guts to look fear in the face and decide to not be deterred, to do what's right and assume the risks. Just sayin.
 
Who expects "flawless assimilation?" Liberals strive for integration, not assimilation. For one, they don't see non-native cultures and belief systems, by default, as infectious dead tissue in need of sloughing off. And two, reasonable people understand that it can take time (with a few bumps and bruises along the way) for different cultures to acclimate to each other and that's ok. Humans are tribal, narcissistic and stubborn--we need time, hell, even when we look alike, speak the same language and come from a similar place (look at early Irish immigrants in the US). But most importantly, thousands of our fellow human beings (many of whom are women and children) fleeing unimaginable terror will be able to sleep better at night. That's more important than me hating the smell of Doner Kebabs and the sight of Hijabs. After a while, I might even like Doners (I do).

But you know what doesn't help the integration process along? Hatred and fear mongering, which leads me to my next point...




One would think that a Croat, more than most, would understand the insidiousness of ethnic nationalism and xenophobia and its disastrous consequences. Sweden is home to plenty of Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian refugees (and their descendents) thanks in part to your disdain for multiculturalism.
We have had our culture suppressed and our land ruled by a blood-thirsty Middle Eastern death cult. We have always hated everything about it. The Serbs tried to force multiculturalism on all of us, and guess what- they lost. The Mohammedans won. That's why we hate our current situation.
 
Welcome to Eupedia Wandelust. I enjoy your posts. Very refreshing in today's nationalistic and conservative climate of fearful of everything Europeans, and Americans alike.

Unfortunately, many former Yugoslavia members here are the most nationalistic people in Europe. One would assume that after years of killing each other they would learn that peace and tolerance is the only solution of coexistence, but effect was different. And the explanation is that any fight for independance heightens nationalistic feelings in such country. I wish I'm wrong, and most of them learned a lesson, but few disgruntled and disappointed soles voice their nationalistic hatred over safety of internet.
So sorry that not everyone wants globalization, the abolition of national identity and culture, and destructive "tolerance". Yes, I'm a nationalist, and I'm proud. That's my political philosophy, just as yours is internationalist globalization. But I respect your worldview, despite how ridiculous it seems to me. I don't assume that I am empirically 100% right.

Also the Bosniak usurpers are not nationalist, their "nationality" is Islam, and they know full well they are sitting on other peoples' lands.
 
I'm afraid you drank the koolaid. Frankly, your attitude will erode and destroy Swedish customs and values. That's the reality, perhaps that's what you want.
You can't compare Irish assimilating to "British" customs on the same level. The country is about a stone's throw away and not really much different from British-American values. The bottom line is Muslim immigrants will soon outnumber Swedes within their own country, that is a fact. They are not going to acclimatize themselves to your customs and traditions. Perhaps in some respects but not the true traditional values. You must be on a lot of drugs man.

1.) Frankly, your many presumptions are rather obnoxious and uncalled for.

2.) Some of you seem to be incapable of understanding that ALL cultures change and evolve over time and that's both normal and ok. This has happened for as long as humans have existed. The fact that this must be said on an anthropology forum is beyond baffling.

3.) What are the Swedish customs and values that my people hold so dear? Do enlighten me. What's hilarious is that the only culture to (arguably) "erode and destroy" Swedish customs and values over the last century has been American culture.

4.) Clearly you are unfamiliar with the egregious amounts of discrimination Irish immigrants received in the United States that impeded them from "whiteness." They were disliked because of their Catholic faith and the "odd" religious rituals and customs associated with it; they were stereotyped as being unintelligent, impulsive, aggressive, violent alcoholics; and they generally were an unskilled labor force. Hmmmm....that sounds an awful like another ethnic/religious minority some of you seem to be irrationally obsessed with.

5.) There is no way in hell that "Muslim immigrants will soon outnumber Swedes." lol The ignorance is unbounded. For one, they are 5% of the population and two, less than a quarter of that number are devout, practicing Muslims. Fortunately, fear mongering is rarely ever supported by the actual facts.

6.) If "on a lot of drugs" = stable, secure, open-minded and armed with facts, then yes, I am quite high.
 
Wanderlust said:
there are far more Muslims simply seeking peace and stability than there are opportunistic rapists, sadists, fanatics and terrorists.
Opinion polling carried out on representative samples of Muslims living in Europe tends to support your view expressed above, but only by the narrowest of margins. It seems that the proportion of peace-seeking Muslims to rapists, sadists, fanatics and terrorists is roughly like 60% to 40%. So, about 40% of Muslims in Europe are rapists, sadists, fanatics or terrorists, and about 60% are peace and stability seekers. Good luck with such "high quality manpower".
 
-and only reason to exist is to bear children.

This is actually true, and not just for women, but for males as well - for both sexes. :)

The sole evolutionary purpose of humans, is to reproduce and perpetuate the species. :)
 
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