Are lots of Greeks and Italians descendants of ancient Phonecians?

[oreo_cookie]

But also Sicily and South Italy were not unpopulated. We haven't aDNA from classical Greece for a comparison.

I apologize for not being clear: I was suggesting pre-Greek Sicily and pre-Greek Crete or Dodecanese would have been similar autosomally. It is just my hypothesis, based on the proximity of these populations to one another today.

If we believe the mainland has 10-15 %Slavic DNA, this is still enough to pull them north on a PCA plot. The Slavic DNA would not need to be that high for this to be the case.

 

[oreo_cookie]

They spout constantly, for example, how southern Italians have no or next to no Greek ancestry, which is patently absurd, as you and I, at least, know very well. You can even find it in the north, if E-V13 is any test, and I, for one, am proud of it. (They forget about all those Greek colonies in France and Spain and all along the Black Sea Coast. I wonder how much "Greek" the Ukrainians and the Crimeans have?

E-V13 could have also flowed across the Balkans gradually. Anyhow I do believe there is Greek DNA in southern Italians, but if we assume the Greeks always had the level of NE European/Steppe admixture as today, then we have to assume lower Greek in southern Italy, as southern Italians have much less Steppe admixture than Greeks (and it would have been the case if we go by the estimate of 10-15% Slavic admixture, whether it arrived at once or accumulated slowly). I think it is possible Greece was genetically diverse even in ancient times, though, with places like Crete always being more akin to southern Italians autosomally and people on the mainland having a slightly northeastern shift.

But then again, what do I know. Until we have ancient DNA samples from these regions, we'll never know for sure. I do have Greek DNA though, and a high number of Greek cousins on 23andme.

 

[Angela]

E-V13 could have also flowed across the Balkans gradually. Anyhow I do believe there is Greek DNA in southern Italians, (1) but if we assume the Greeks always had the level of NE European/Steppe admixture as today, then we have to assume lower Greek in southern Italy, as southern Italians have much less Steppe admixture than Greeks (and (2)it would have been the case if we go by the estimate of 10-15% Slavic admixture, whether it arrived at once or accumulated slowly). I think it is possible Greece was genetically diverse even in ancient times, though, with places like Crete always being more akin to southern Italians autosomally and people on the mainland having a slightly northeastern shift.

But then again, what do I know. Until we have ancient DNA samples from these regions, we'll never know for sure. I do have Greek DNA though, and a high number of Greek cousins on 23andme.

(1)Why on earth would "we" assume that if "we" know for a fact that there was Slavic migration to Greece, and there were Celts and Goths in the area, plus the long lived northern Italian rule much later. All those people have more "steppe" than southern Italians. That makes no logical sense.

(2)No, it wouldn't have been the case if there were Slavic input, plus a little Celtic and Goth, plus Italian.

There's no objective, logical, reason to assume number 1 or conclude number 2.

Posting the same thing over and over again hundreds of times on multiple sites doesn't make it any more true the 100th time than it was the first.

I suggest you wait for the ancient dna, as do we all.

 

[Korbyn]

From my knowledge Phoenicians are Canaanites; and Jews are somehow relative or direct descendants of them. Although it is possible that Greeks and especially Italians intermingled with them.

Arish the Phoenician (modern day Tunisia):



http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/news/carthage_phoenician_skeleton856.html

 

[LABERIA]

ok because I hear enough about Greece, etc etc,

1rst, the slavic and celtic admixture in Greece is a fact,
the Slavic admixture from the census of 1800's is considered to be 8-14%
the Celtic admixture either by Roman settlers, either by Crusaders, either By Venicians-Genovese, either by Catalans, even by Con/polis (NOVA ROMA) descendants is also about 8-12%
so Indeed 1/4 modern Greeks comes from Slavic or Celto-Roman,

the Greeks from Anatolia is about 10-15/100 of population, most devasstate abroad after 1920's or 1950's,
Today at Bayern Deutschland live more than 100 000 Greeks from Anatolia/Pontus area when all that came at 1920 were about 300-400 000

The Albanian admixture as Arbanites has 4 waves,
1 the crusaders time, at about 1200-1250 Crusaders brought Albanians to settle at the Duchy of Athens
2 the Maniakis and Kastrioti and Kladas times, which many of them are greeks and most left to Italy, the real Arbereshides
3 late 1700- early 1800 times which most of them were Vlachs and Greeks,
4 the late 1990 wave mostly economical immigrants, which is ahuge wave reaching 1 500 000 at 2002 and drop to about 300-600 000 today,
the Albanian admixture at Greece at the census of 1860 is considered to be 0.3% the written, and about 1,5% the non written,
simply the ones that came with crusaders had took Attica so at early Greek years the capital area looked as Arbanitika speaking to king Otto

other minorities at Greece that even you the wise guys do not know are the true Pomaks of Thrace,
True Pomaks, are not Greeks, neither Turks, neither Bulgarians, and have nothing to do with what Turks pomaks at Adrianoupolis,
True Pomaks have very high HBO Arab due to inner mariage, and live at Rodope mountains more than 2000 years as genetical studies show
they are about 200-300 000 at both Greece and Bulgaria, and after 1920's many moved to Turkey
they are about 1-1,5 % of modern Greek population,

on controversary,
at Albania at 1910-1920 lived 150-200 000 Greeks, more than 400 000 at Fyrom and Serbia about 150 000 at Bulgaria and 100 000 at ex-Austro-Hungarian empire,
most of them returned, or assimilated by locals,

the exchange of populations at 1920's with Turkey change the demographics indeed, but not as the number some want to see or talk,
they mostly came from the historical known after crusaders time Greek empire of Nicaia and Trebizond,
in fact it is considered a disaster for Greeks,
at Trebizond empire only, the estimation was about 3 000 000 Greeks (Rum) while only 3-400 000 came to Greece and same went to Russia and Georgia,
that is why Greeks yell about the Genocide of Pontic Greeks,
so what came from minor Asia it can have only Greek and Local Anatolian admixture,
anyway even if 50% of them were Anatolians or Galates that makes about 5-7% of greece population,
so excluding the Slavic and the 'Roman empire' remnants which is the heaviest admixture about 1/4 modern Greeks
the rest are about max 10%
so ok max 35% of modern Greeks is not ancient Greek, WOW to an area that was center of the world for at least 2 milleniums is that high?
consider Paris and London, they are center of the world for 2-3-5? centuries and have higher admixture,

ok lets put also all Scythians, and Avars, and Arabs and Roma and and and how much 40%?
come on what is next in the agenda?

PS
I wonder why everybody speaks about modern Greece and % of populations,
and do not see the effects of Greek population on other populations?
All except Italy, only Italians admit a % of south Italy has Greek ancenstry, and some Palaistinians
Not Austrians, not Hungarians, not Slovenes, not Romanians, not Bulgarians, not Spanish, not Albanians, not Fyrom, not Croats,, even not Egyptians and Cyrene, not Syrrians, etc etc,

Totally inaccurate as always.

 

[davef]

From my knowledge Phoenicians are Canaanites; and Jews are somehow relative or direct descendants of them. Although it is possible that Greeks and especially Italians intermingled with them.

Arish the Phoenician (modern day Tunisia):

View attachment 7856

http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/news/carthage_phoenician_skeleton856.html

As a person of both south italian and jewish ancestry my idea of what I'm made of keeps oscillating between greek, some old european farmer like population that isn't there any more, or some sort of italian in the jewish mix like a weird clock with a pundulum bouncing between three different walls.

Identity crisis anyone? Anyway time for that sleep thing.

 

[oreo_cookie]

(1)Why on earth would "we" assume that if "we" know for a fact that there was Slavic migration to Greece, and there were Celts and Goths in the area, plus the long lived northern Italian rule much later. All those people have more "steppe" than southern Italians. That makes no logical sense.

I am just going to wait for ancient samples rather than continue to hypothesize. But I take it what you're suggesting is that Greeks may have once been more comparable to the southern Italians of today, but have been shifted north because they've had more northern inputs in the last 2000 years or so than say, Calabria or Sicily overall. Is this correct? I just want to make sure I understand, then I'm done speculating here in this thread.

 

[Yetos]

I apologize for not being clear: I was suggesting pre-Greek Sicily and pre-Greek Crete or Dodecanese would have been similar autosomally. It is just my hypothesis, based on the proximity of these populations to one another today.

If we believe the mainland has 10-15 %Slavic DNA, this is still enough to pull them north on a PCA plot. The Slavic DNA would not need to be that high for this to be the case.

well if remember correct a work has prove that neolithich farmers moved from minor Asia to Italy via marine road,

 

[Hauteville]

well if remember correct a work has prove that neolithich farmers moved from minor Asia to Italy via marine road,

Paschou et al. This study also said that Greece was the proxy for the maritime road.

 

[DejaVu]

ok because I hear enough about Greece, etc etc,

1rst, the slavic and celtic admixture in Greece is a fact,
the Slavic admixture from the census of 1800's is considered to be 8-14%
the Celtic admixture either by Roman settlers, either by Crusaders, either By Venicians-Genovese, either by Catalans, even by Con/polis (NOVA ROMA) descendants is also about 8-12%
so Indeed 1/4 modern Greeks comes from Slavic or Celto-Roman,

the Greeks from Anatolia is about 10-15/100 of population, most devasstate abroad after 1920's or 1950's,
Today at Bayern Deutschland live more than 100 000 Greeks from Anatolia/Pontus area when all that came at 1920 were about 300-400 000

The Albanian admixture as Arbanites has 4 waves,
1 the crusaders time, at about 1200-1250 Crusaders brought Albanians to settle at the Duchy of Athens
2 the Maniakis and Kastrioti and Kladas times, which many of them are greeks and most left to Italy, the real Arbereshides
3 late 1700- early 1800 times which most of them were Vlachs and Greeks,
4 the late 1990 wave mostly economical immigrants, which is ahuge wave reaching 1 500 000 at 2002 and drop to about 300-600 000 today,
the Albanian admixture at Greece at the census of 1860 is considered to be 0.3% the written, and about 1,5% the non written,
simply the ones that came with crusaders had took Attica so at early Greek years the capital area looked as Arbanitika speaking to king Otto

other minorities at Greece that even you the wise guys do not know are the true Pomaks of Thrace,
True Pomaks, are not Greeks, neither Turks, neither Bulgarians, and have nothing to do with what Turks pomaks at Adrianoupolis,
True Pomaks have very high HBO Arab due to inner mariage, and live at Rodope mountains more than 2000 years as genetical studies show
they are about 200-300 000 at both Greece and Bulgaria, and after 1920's many moved to Turkey
they are about 1-1,5 % of modern Greek population,

on controversary,
at Albania at 1910-1920 lived 150-200 000 Greeks, more than 400 000 at Fyrom and Serbia about 150 000 at Bulgaria and 100 000 at ex-Austro-Hungarian empire,
most of them returned, or assimilated by locals,

the exchange of populations at 1920's with Turkey change the demographics indeed, but not as the number some want to see or talk,
they mostly came from the historical known after crusaders time Greek empire of Nicaia and Trebizond,
in fact it is considered a disaster for Greeks,
at Trebizond empire only, the estimation was about 3 000 000 Greeks (Rum) while only 3-400 000 came to Greece and same went to Russia and Georgia,
that is why Greeks yell about the Genocide of Pontic Greeks,
so what came from minor Asia it can have only Greek and Local Anatolian admixture,
anyway even if 50% of them were Anatolians or Galates that makes about 5-7% of greece population,
so excluding the Slavic and the 'Roman empire' remnants which is the heaviest admixture about 1/4 modern Greeks
the rest are about max 10%
so ok max 35% of modern Greeks is not ancient Greek, WOW to an area that was center of the world for at least 2 milleniums is that high?
consider Paris and London, they are center of the world for 2-3-5? centuries and have higher admixture,

ok lets put also all Scythians, and Avars, and Arabs and Roma and and and how much 40%?
come on what is next in the agenda?

PS
I wonder why everybody speaks about modern Greece and % of populations,
and do not see the effects of Greek population on other populations?
All except Italy, only Italians admit a % of south Italy has Greek ancenstry, and some Palaistinians
Not Austrians, not Hungarians, not Slovenes, not Romanians, not Bulgarians, not Spanish, not Albanians, not Fyrom, not Croats,, even not Egyptians and Cyrene, not Syrrians, etc etc,

Ancient Greeks?


http://www.valueforless.com/cohila/...ishment-modern-greek-army-1832-history-europe
Creation Of Greek State & Military By The Bavarians 1833-1865

Political Perspective
Modern Greece is a country born out of a mixture of regional ethnicities, mostly hudled under the banner of the Greek Orthodox Christian Church (often a flag of convenience for Jews in Turkey) and therefore describing themselves as 'Greek'.

European powers including Russia, Britain, Germany, Austria-Hungary, France and Italy, desired the demise of the troublesome Ottoman Empire and supported it's breakup into independent countries, along ethnic-cultural lines, a rare instance of western European agreement, one of these newly created countries was modern Greece.

The consensus figure to become King Of Greece, and create the structures of an independent Greek state, was Prince Otto, Bavarian (German) King Ludwig's second son.
With money borrowed from the British Government and the illustrious Jewish banking family of Rothschild, an expedition of Bavarian buraeucrats and palace officials plus a Bavarian military expedition force of 3500 men was created as the initial army of Greece, these were dispatched in 1835 to Greece together with prince Otto as the new king of Greece.


"In vain the pragmatic Metternich tried to argue with them that modern Greeks were not the Greeks of antiquity but a mixture of Albanians, slavs, and other elements, the liberal romantisists like King Ludwig of Bavaria saw in Greeks the descendants of ancient Greeks who brought human culture to its highest perfection."

 

[Angela]

Well, of course, if Spiro DeCastro Leon says so in his blog it must be true, of course. That's exactly the kind of scientific, logic based argumentation we like to see here.

In case anyone missed it, that's sarcasm.

 

[Sile]

Ancient Greeks?


http://www.valueforless.com/cohila/...ishment-modern-greek-army-1832-history-europe
Creation Of Greek State & Military By The Bavarians 1833-1865

Political Perspective
Modern Greece is a country born out of a mixture of regional ethnicities, mostly hudled under the banner of the Greek Orthodox Christian Church (often a flag of convenience for Jews in Turkey) and therefore describing themselves as 'Greek'.

European powers including Russia, Britain, Germany, Austria-Hungary, France and Italy, desired the demise of the troublesome Ottoman Empire and supported it's breakup into independent countries, along ethnic-cultural lines, a rare instance of western European agreement, one of these newly created countries was modern Greece.

The consensus figure to become King Of Greece, and create the structures of an independent Greek state, was Prince Otto, Bavarian (German) King Ludwig's second son.
With money borrowed from the British Government and the illustrious Jewish banking family of Rothschild, an expedition of Bavarian buraeucrats and palace officials plus a Bavarian military expedition force of 3500 men was created as the initial army of Greece, these were dispatched in 1835 to Greece together with prince Otto as the new king of Greece.


"In vain the pragmatic Metternich tried to argue with them that modern Greeks were not the Greeks of antiquity but a mixture of Albanians, slavs, and other elements, the liberal romantisists like King Ludwig of Bavaria saw in Greeks the descendants of ancient Greeks who brought human culture to its highest perfection."

Well history shows that after the un-democratic Treaty ...........called the Congress of Vienna 1815-1820 ...............to form a nation, you needed a King................Greece had to beg a Bavarian Nobleman to become the Greek king and so form a country called Greece.

Same with Italy..............it had to get a French family from Savoy to become an "Italian" King and so start the process of forming a country called Italy

 

[avarex]

early neolithic farmers bridged into europe via the dodecanese island formation; the true east Mediterranean synapse connecting east &west