Off topic Ashkenazi Genetics Thread

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Tomenable

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Apparently European Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardi ones) were/are brachycephalic (C.I. between 81.5 and 83.0):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32413-Average-CWC-skull-metrics?p=483155&viewfull=1#post483155

I wonder what could be the reason of this? Aren't they supposed to be dolichocephalic, like Mediterranid-type peoples?

Quote:

"(...) Setting aside the Caucasian and also the African Jews, we find that the cephalic index of nearly all European Jews is between 81.5 and 83.0, showing only a limited variability, which may be attributed to the usual discrepancies between the different series of measurements of a single and homogeneous race. Another remarkable fact is the striking absence of dolichocephaly, varying from one percent in Blechman's to 7.3 in Glück's series; and at the same time there seems to be a marked preponderance of the brachycephalic type - the results of all observers show that over 60 percent of the individuals measured had a C.I. of over 80. This is about as far as we can go while attempting to study the head-form of the Jews from the accumulated anthropological literature of today. (...)"

Source:

Maurice Fishberg, "Physical Anthropology of the Jews. I. The Cephalic Index", published in: "American Anthropologist", Vol. 4, No. 4, 1902.

==================

Am I right to assume that Ancient Jews were dolichocephalic, like the Mediterranid subrace ???
 
Here is the defining classification:

German system:

C.I. 55.0 - 59.9 = ultradolichocephalic (extremely long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. 60.0 - 64.9 = hyperdolichocephalic (very long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. - 74.9 = dolichocephalic (long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. 75.0 - 79.9 = mesocephalic (intermediate in head form)
C.I. 80.0 - = brachycephalic (round-/short-/broad-headed)
C.I. 85.0 - 89.9 = hyperbrachycephalic (very round-/short-/broad-headed)
C.I. 90.0 - 94.9 = ultrabrachycephalic (extremely round-/short-/broad-headed)

French system:

C.I. - 75.00 = dolichocephalic
C.I. 75.01 - 77.77 = subdolichocephalic
C.I. 77.78 - 80.00 = mesocephalic
C.I. 80.01 - 83.33 = subbrachycephalic
C.I. 83.34 - = brachycephalic

=======================

C.I. of 81.5 - 83.0 places Jews in the "brachycephalic" (German) or "subbrachycephalic" (French) categories.
 
Tomenable said:
Apparently European Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardi ones) were/are brachycephalic (C.I. between 81.5 and 83.0):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32413-Average-CWC-skull-metrics?p=483155&viewfull=1#post483155

I wonder what could be the reason of this? Aren't they supposed to be dolichocephalic, like Mediterranid-type peoples?

Quote:

"(...) Setting aside the Caucasian and also the African Jews, we find that the cephalic index of nearly all European Jews is between 81.5 and 83.0, showing only a limited variability, which may be attributed to the usual discrepancies between the different series of measurements of a single and homogeneous race. Another remarkable fact is the striking absence of dolichocephaly, varying from one percent in Blechman's to 7.3 in Glück's series; and at the same time there seems to be a marked preponderance of the brachycephalic type - the results of all observers show that over 60 percent of the individuals measured had a C.I. of over 80. This is about as far as we can go while attempting to study the head-form of the Jews from the accumulated anthropological literature of today. (...)"

Source:

Maurice Fishberg, "Physical Anthropology of the Jews. I. The Cephalic Index", published in: "American Anthropologist", Vol. 4, No. 4, 1902.

==================

Am I right to assume that Ancient Jews were dolichocephalic, like the Mediterranid subrace ???
Click to expand...

Tomenable, I think that a dstat admixture thread isn't the best place for a protracted discussion of physical anthropology. Perhaps you can continue the discussion on one of your recent threads on skull shapes?

Just briefly, however, to the best of my recollection there's a lot of brachycephaly in the Near East, increasing perhaps as you go further north. This is total speculation on my part, but perhaps it's connected to the movement south of certain phenotypes that originated in areas around the Caucasus or Central Asia. There's a lot in Europe too, of course, even beginning in the middle Neolithic, as Otzi shows. So, it was present in a minority percentage even in the Neolithic, although it increased in the Bronze Age.

Then again, with no big changes in terms of mass migrations in the last 500+ years, brachycephaly is increasing, which is why physical anthropology is not completely reliable for tracking migrations, at least in terms of this particular measurement over time.
 
Armenoid (which is brachycephalic, IIRC) was the main phenotype of Polish Jews according to Henryk Szpidbaum.*

The "Jewish nose" is in fact Armenoid nose, and it is actually most common among ethnic Armenians.

Data on percentage of convex noses by country / ethnicity:

Armenians: 62%
Albania (Ghegs): "over 50%"
Montenegro: 52%
Jews (Ashkenazi): "below 50%"
Ireland: 45%
Basques: 43% (Spanish); 49% (French)
Netherlands (Frisians): 35%
Italy (North): 32%
Greece: 30%
Switzerland: 25%
Serbia: 25%
Ukraine (Volhynians): 17%
Spain: 15%
Bulgaria: "rare"

===============================

*Henryk Szpidbaum was a Polish-Jewish anthropologist, he wrote a chapter in this book:

"Żydzi w Polsce Odrodzonej. Działalność społeczna, gospodarcza, oświatowa i kulturalna."

In English (plus a table of contents translated to English - author of each chapter is given):

"Jews in the Reborn Poland. Social, economic, educational and cultural activity":

VOLUME ONE, Warsaw 1933:

Publisher's Note
Introduction - Dr Ozjasz Thon

PART I - Jews in the old Polish Rzeczpospolita [Commonwealth]:

1. Growth of Jewish population in the lands of old Polish Commonwealth - Dr Ignacy Schiper
2. External history of Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr Emanuel Ringelblum
3. Internal Organization of Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr I. Schiper
4. Economic history of Jews of the Crown and of the Grand Duchy in pre-partitions times - Dr I. Schiper
5. Fundamental rights of Jews in pre-partitions Poland - Dr Mojżesz Schorr
6. Jewish taxes to the state and to patrons - Dr I. Schiper

PART II - Jewish culture in Poland before the partitions:

7. Rabbinic literature of Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr Jeremjasz Frenkel
8. Vernacular languages of Polish Jews and their folk literature in the old Commonwealth - Dr I. Schiper
9. Jewish apologists and polemicists in the old Commonwealth - Dr I. Schiper
10. Secular sciences among Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr I. Schiper
11. Misticism and messianic movements among Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr I. Schiper
12. Chasidism among Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr Jeremiasz Frenkel
13. Jewish doctors in the old Commonwealth - Dr Majer Bałaban
14. Plastic arts among Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr I. Schiper
15. Jewish education in the old Commonwealth - Dr Majer Bałaban
16. Customs and private life of Jews in the old Commonwealth - Dr Majer Bałaban

PART III - Polish Jews in the post-partitions period until year 1918:

17. History of Jews in Galicia (1772 - 1918) - Dr Filip Friedman
18. Galician Jews during the World War (1914 - 1918) - Dr I. Schiper
19. History of Jews in the Duchy of Warsaw and in the Kingdom of Poland (1795 - 1863) - Dr I. Schiper
20. History of Jews in the Kingdom of Poland since 1864 until 1918 - Samuel Hirszhorn
21. Development of Chasidism among Jews in post-partitions Poland (1795 - 1918) - Dr Jeremiasz Frenkel
22. History of Zionism in Polish lands (until 1918) - Dr Ignacy Schiper
23. Jewish working class movement in pre-war period - Arjeh Tartakower
24. Jews in Polish Legions (1914 - 1917) - Władysław Konic
25. Jews under the Prussian partition (1772 - 1918) - Dr I. Schiper
26. Jews in northern and eastern Kresy in post-partitions times - Dr I. Schiper

VOLUME TWO, Warsaw 1933:

PART III - Polish Jews in the post-partitions period until year 1918 (continued):

26. Jews in northern and eastern Kresy in post-partitions times (continued) - Dr I. Schiper
27. Participation of Polish Jews in science (19th century and early 20th century) - Mateusz Mieses
28. Modern Hebrew literature in Poland - Dr Jeremiasz Frenkel
29. Jewish contribution to Polish literature (until year 1918) - Dr Wilhelm Fallek
30. Development of Jewish literature in post-partitions Poland - Dr I. Schiper
31. Rabbinic literature of Polish Jews in post-partitions times - Izaak Lewin
32. Polish Jews and fine arts until year 1918 - Aleksander Hafftka

PART IV - Jews in the Rzeczpospolita [Republic] of Poland in period 1918 - 1933:

34. Racial [anthropological] structure of Polish Jews - Dr Henryk Szpidbaum
35. Numbers and natural development of Jewish population in Poland - Dr Arjeh Tartakower
36. Fundamental rights of Jewish minority in Poland and their history - Dr Michał Ringel
37. Legislation of the Reborn Poland concerning its Jewish national minority - Aleksander Hafftka
38. Legislation of the Reborn Poland concerning Jewish communities - Dr Michał Ringel
39. Jewish political parties in the Reborn Poland - Aleksander Hafftka
40. Parliamentary life of Jews in the Reborn Poland - Aleksander Hafftka
41. Parliamentary and political activity of Jewish deputies and senators in the Reborn Poland - A. Hafftka

PART V - Economic life:

42. Occupational and social structure of Jews in the Reborn Poland - Dr Arjeh Tartakower
43. Issues concerning pauperization of Jewish population in Poland - J. Borenstein
44. Jews in agriculture in the areas of former Congress Poland and Eastern Kresy - Engineer Bernard Dobrzyński
45. Jews in agriculture in the region of Lesser Poland - Dr Ignacy Schiper
46. Jews in Polish banking - Adolf Peretz
47. Jews in banking and credit (Greater Poland, Lesser Poland, Wilno Region, Eastern Kresy) - Dr Ignacy Schiper
48. Participation of Jews in trade of the Reborn Poland - Engineer Maurycy Zajdeman
49. Participation of Jews in the branch of dealership and commission - Leon Perl
50. Jews in Polish industry - Dr Ignacy Schiper & Aleksander Hafftka
51. Participation of Jews in communication and transport - Dr Ignacy Schiper
52. Jewish artisans in the Reborn Poland - A. Hafftka
53. Jewish working class in Poland - Dr Arjeh Tartakower
54. Jewish cooperatives in the Reborn Poland - Abraham Prowalski

====================================

Volume One has almost 600 pages and Volume Two has over 650 pages.

I don't know if there is also Volume Three, perhaps not (though it was planned before WW2).

====================================

Has this book ever been translated to English ???
 
Tomenable said:
Armenoid type is brachycephalic - and this was the main phenotype of Polish Jews according to

The "Jewish nose" is in fact Armenoid nose, and it is actually most common among Armenians.

Data on percentage of convex noses by country / ethnicity:

Armenians: 62%
Albania (Ghegs): "well over 50%"
Montenegro: 52%
Jews (Ashkenazi): "well below 50%"
Ireland: 45%
Basques: 43% (Spanish); 49% (French)
Netherlands (Frisians): 35%
Italy (North): 32%
Greece: 30%
Switzerland: 25%
Serbia: 25%
Ukraine (Volhynians): 17%
Spain: 15%
Bulgaria: "rare"
Click to expand...

As I said, this is not the thread for a protracted discussion of physical anthropology. In addition, please don't post statistics without citations, and don't post at all if the said stats are not from a reliable source.
 
Angela said:
In terms of the IBD sharing, why would you assume that the gene flow was all from the Jews into Slavs? I don't see any evidence that was the case. If nothing else, with each pogrom there were reported rapes. Some of those no doubt resulted in pregnancies, much as I would prefer not to discuss it. They may not have happened specifically in Poland, but they were "Slavic" genes nonetheless. That's why ultra-orthodox Jewish women still have very short hair and wear wigs. The custom developed in the Pale, and was to make them less attractive to the surrounding goyim. At least that's what my Orthodox friends have told me.
Click to expand...

There is virtually no any Slavic Y-DNA among Jews, especially no European R1a, so how does it fit into the "rape theory"?

On the other hand, there are some Southern European and Western/Central European Y-DNA haplogroups among Jews.

Indicating that they were being raped by Italians, Germans, Spaniards and the like - before finding refuge in Poland.

Maybe Roman soldiers raped many Jewesses before destroying the Temple and massacring the Masada defenders ???

Maybe Italian admixture in Ashkenazi Jews was due to rapes of Jewish women by Romans, not due to conversions?

============================

Ashkenazi Y-DNA, sample size: 2219 Ashkenazi men (= 100%)

Haplogroup J2:

J2b (M102) - 29 (1.31%)
J2a1 (L26) - 436 (19.65%), including:

- J2a1b1a (L556) - 171
- other J2a1b1 (M92) - 22
- J2a1b3 (L210) - 89
- other J2a1b (Z6046) - 40
- J2a1h2a1 (L70) - 50
- J2a1h2b (L243) - 17
- other J2a1h2 (L25) - 47

Haplogroup J1:

J1a (Z2215) - 396 (17.85%), including:

- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4b1 (ZS227) - 161
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a6 (YSC76) - 61
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a1 (FGC11) - 9
- J1a2b3a1 (L816) - 78
- J1a2b2b1b7 (Z640) - 24
- other J1a2b2 (Z18297) - 53
- J1a1b1a1 (PF7263) - 10

Haplogroup E1:

E1a1 (M44) - 15 (0.68%)
E1b1b1 (M35) - 369 (16.63%), including:

- E1b1b1b2a1a4d2 (Y6923) - 125
- other E1b1b1b2a1a (M84) - 105
- other E1b1b1b2 (Z830) - 72
- E1b1b1b1a (M81) - 7
- E1b1b1a1b2 (V22) - 32
- E1b1b1a1b1a (V13) - 14
- E1b1b1a1a1 (V12) - 14

Haplogroup G:

G2b1 (M377) - 170 (7.66%)
G2a2b2a1 (L140) - 36 (1.62%)
other G2a (P15) - 18 (0.81%)
G1 (M342) - 31 (1.4%)

Haplogroup T1:

T1a1a1b2b2b1a (P77) - 19 (0.86%)
other T1a1a (L208) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup L1:

L1b (M317) - 4 (0.18%)

Haplogroup R1:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%)
R1a1a1b2a2a (Z2123) - 8 (0.36%)
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (L1029) - 11 (0.5%)
R1b1c (V88) - 22 (0.99%)
R1b1a1a* (PF4354) - 6 (0.27%)
R1b1a1a2b (PF7558) - 37 (1.67%)
R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%)
R1b1a1a2a1 (L51) - 134 (6.04%)

Haplogroup R2:

R2a2 (F1092) - 21 (0.95%)
other R2a (M124) - 3 (0.14%)

Haplogroup Q:

Q1b1a1a1a (Y2200) - 144 (6.49%)

Haplogroup I2:

I2a1 (P37) - 24 (1.08%)
I2a2 (P78) - 12 (0.54%)
I2c (P215) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup I1:

I1a2a1a (Z140) - 4 (0.18%)

=========
Source:

http://jewishdna.net
 
As we can see, the only typically Slavic Y-DNA in that sample is this:

I2a1 (P37) - 24 (1.08%)
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (L1029) - 11 (0.5%)

So only 35 Jewish men with Slavic Y-DNA in a large sample of 2219.

And the proportion of I2a to R1a actually looks South Slavic (Balkan).

It seems that R1b-L51 Western European men raped more Jewesses:

R1b1a1a2a1 (L51) - 134 (6.04%)

And also a relatively fair share of this Jewish R1b-L51 is R1b-U106.
 
Given the paucity of Slavic Y-DNA among Ashkenazim (at least in this sample), I would say that Slavic admixture which can be seen among them was mediated mostly via women - perhaps some Slavic women converting to Judaism and marrying Ashkenazi men. After all, Jewish Y-DNA is mostly of Middle Eastern origin, but in case of mtDNA some authors have suggested that a lot of it is European (but similar mtDNA was also found in aDNA from Neolithic Levant).

It will be hard to determine, where did Ashkenazi "founding mothers" live. By "founding mothers", I mean the 4 women who were ancestral to ca. 38-40% of Ashkenazim. They were carriers of the following mtDNA haplogroups:

K1a1b1a1 ---- ca. 20% of Ashkenazi mtDNA
N1b2 ---------- ca. 9% of Ashkenazi mtDNA
K1a9 ---------- ca. 6% of Ashkenazi mtDNA
K2a2a1 ------- ca. 5% of Ashkenazi mtDNA

The remaining 60% of Ashkenazi mtDNA belongs to a plethora of various haplogroups & subclades.
 
There is also some E-M123, E-M136, etc. (these two are subclades of E-Z380) among Jewish Y-DNA.
 
Hello dear always in my thoughts, but I work a lot and do not always have time to be on the forums hearing all sorts of things, but believe me this is very interesting, highly recommendable.


Really do not know, sometimes I think I am a Jew; though religions are later, but with the Jewish issue is as more complicated still if possible, I feel strange and I really believe that there can be a purer than mine on the face of the earth heart, but assails me doubt and I have come to think I'm reptilian because I have some pictures where my ward is completely vertical, I really feel strange, and I think sometimes that this world is not for me, I renounce the world, but please stop breaking the windows of Spanish restaurants in London or will they deserve, the world is very choppy and heated and you can not go around throwing stones, so that will soon be left in its bloody island taking a bath clouds with a deplorable time, stay at home. Salve Maria Full of Grace.
 
Ashkenazi Jew from Germany (Rhea Tannenbaum):

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158342

Rhea Tannenbaum
GEDMATCH KIT #: T405698
ANCESTOR NAME: Heinrich "Daniel" Knobloch
ANCESTOR BIRTH: Posen Province, Prussia, Germany ABT 1812
Click to expand...

Eurogenes K15:

GEDmatch kit T405698

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.7
2 West_Med 17.48
3 West_Asian 15.5
4 Atlantic 11.46
5 North_Sea 8.68
6 Red_Sea 7.63
7 Baltic 5.32
8 Eastern_Euro 2.9
9 South_Asian 1.56
10 Northeast_African 1.5
11 Siberian 0.96
12 Southeast_Asian 0.67
13 Sub-Saharan 0.64

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.11
2 Ashkenazi 4.27
3 Central_Greek 4.34
4 South_Italian 5.38
5 Italian_Abruzzo 6.59
6 West_Sicilian 7.79
7 Italian_Jewish 8.45
8 Sephardic_Jewish 8.84
9 Greek_Thessaly 9.35
10 Greek 9.54
11 Algerian_Jewish 9.94
12 Tuscan 11.59
13 Tunisian_Jewish 12.83
14 Libyan_Jewish 14
15 Cyprian 14.72
16 Bulgarian 16.33
17 Turkish 16.86
18 Lebanese_Muslim 17.28
19 Syrian 17.45
20 North_Italian 17.92

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.7% East_Sicilian + 6.3% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.2
2 92% East_Sicilian + 8% Turkmen @ 2.2
3 93.7% East_Sicilian + 6.3% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 2.22
4 95.5% East_Sicilian + 4.5% Hazara @ 2.32
5 95% East_Sicilian + 5% Afghan_Hazara @ 2.32
6 95.9% East_Sicilian + 4.1% Burusho @ 2.35
7 94.1% East_Sicilian + 5.9% Tadjik @ 2.36
8 95% East_Sicilian + 5% Uzbeki @ 2.36
9 94.9% East_Sicilian + 5.1% Afghan_Turkmen @ 2.4
10 94% East_Sicilian + 6% Nogay @ 2.43
11 95.4% East_Sicilian + 4.6% Brahui @ 2.46
12 95.2% East_Sicilian + 4.8% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.46
13 95.1% East_Sicilian + 4.9% Makrani @ 2.47
14 95.7% East_Sicilian + 4.3% Uygur @ 2.47
15 95.4% East_Sicilian + 4.6% Balochi @ 2.47
16 96.1% East_Sicilian + 3.9% Kalash @ 2.5
17 96.2% East_Sicilian + 3.8% Pathan @ 2.53
18 90.3% East_Sicilian + 9.7% Turkish @ 2.54
19 92.5% East_Sicilian + 7.5% Azeri @ 2.58
20 96.7% East_Sicilian + 3.3% Sindhi @ 2.59

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% East_Sicilian @ 3.331193

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% East_Sicilian +25% South_Italian @ 3.279974

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Armenian + Bedouin + Sardinian + Serbian @ 2.677660
2 Georgian_Jewish + Hungarian + Jordanian + Sardinian @ 2.734455
3 Armenian + Hungarian + Palestinian + Sardinian @ 2.779987
4 Georgian_Jewish + Hungarian + Palestinian + Sardinian @ 2.793874
5 Armenian + Bedouin + Hungarian + Sardinian @ 2.832329
6 Georgian_Jewish + Hungarian + Sardinian + Syrian @ 2.864037
7 Armenian + Austrian + Bedouin + Sardinian @ 2.864691
8 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Tunisian + Tuscan @ 2.927758
9 Kumyk + Romanian + Sardinian + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.936674
10 Assyrian + Hungarian + Sardinian + Syrian @ 2.957949
11 Austrian + Georgian_Jewish + Jordanian + Sardinian @ 2.964595
12 Armenian + Hungarian + Jordanian + Sardinian @ 2.985512
13 East_German + Georgian_Jewish + Palestinian + Sardinian @ 2.991710
14 Chechen + Sardinian + Tuscan + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.999371
15 Armenian + Austrian + Palestinian + Sardinian @ 2.999888
16 Algerian + Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Tuscan @ 3.011000
17 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Moroccan + Tuscan @ 3.013715
18 Armenian + Austrian + Jordanian + Sardinian @ 3.031933
19 Lezgin + Sardinian + Tuscan + Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.047948
20 Bedouin + Georgian_Jewish + Hungarian + Sardinian @ 3.060024
 
Tomenable said:
Armenoid (which is brachycephalic, IIRC) was the main phenotype of Polish Jews according to Henryk Szpidbaum.*

The "Jewish nose" is in fact Armenoid nose, and it is actually most common among ethnic Armenians.

Data on percentage of convex noses by country / ethnicity:

Armenians: 62%
Albania (Ghegs): "over 50%"
Montenegro: 52%
Jews (Ashkenazi): "below 50%"
Ireland: 45%
Basques: 43% (Spanish); 49% (French)
Netherlands (Frisians): 35%
Italy (North): 32%
Greece: 30%
Switzerland: 25%
Serbia: 25%
Ukraine (Volhynians): 17%
Spain: 15%
Bulgaria: "rare"
Click to expand...

And how do you explain the connection between Armenians, Ashkenazi, Irish, Basques, French and Frisians (Northern Dutch)?

Italy (North) is 23,8% (31,70% males and 16,01% females = 23,8%)

s10.jpg
 
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