Time and place of European admixture into the Ashkenazim-Xue et al

[Hauteville]

In terms of autosomal DNA Cretans are close to Sicilians (but again, their y-dna pool shows Slavic influence via R1a and I2), Cypriots are not even in the European cluster on any PCA plot, they are basically Levantines themselves.

Yes some islander Greeks have some Slavic Y-Chromosome at the same time Sicily is one of the most germanized regions by Y-Chromosome of Italy that make equal all.
Maps by the same author.

Sicilians DO have high IBD sharing with Maghrebi people, implying that the North African input into the population is more recent.

On the same study also Calabrians and Lucanians have similar amount of IBD sharing with North Africans and those two regions never had Muslims occupations, and IBD is reciprocal. Which can means that there is a significant Italian input on Maghrebi region since Roman times or in the times of Norman conquest when most of the muslims (in large part were local converts) settled to North Africa.

Phoenicians or anything more recent, and that the Sikels, Sicanians, and Elymians at the time of contact with Phoenicians had already been genetically shifted toward West Asia.

The estimating TMRCA of J1 and J2 in Southern Italy and Sicily is indeed in the early bronze age said Stefania Sarno. If there is some Punic DNA you can find it around Marsala or maybe Palermo but the rest of Sicily hadn't Phoenician settlements unlike North Africa and Iberian peninsula for example, but again we don't really know who were the Phoenicians and what is their DNA, a Phoenician man from Carthage had European mtDNA for example.

 

[davef]

Italian genetics are awesome, but we need to stick to Ashkenazim genetics and stay on topic.

 

[davef]

This was interesting:
http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f130123362.htm

My memory of the exact percentages is fuzzy, but what's striking about it is that the percentages of each component in this study are close to those in the study conducted by Xue.

Middle Eastern: .38
Italian: .305
French: .11
Russian: .04
Caucasian: .165

I'll just add up Caucasian and meddle eastern to make it a "Levantine" category akin to the Middle East category in the Xue study making it roughly .54 in comparison to Xue's .50 value. I'll admit its a bit of a stretch to do this.

Also the 16 percent Northern European found by Xue (west plus east Europe) is similar to the 15 percent Northern European found in this study (french plus Russian). I'm not quite sure whether they used french from the north or south as the former are north euros similar to the British and the latter are more like the Spaniards.

The .305 italian is also somewhat close to the .35 italian found by Xue. I'm again uncertain of the region from where the italian samples were taken from. Like france, italy is far from being a homogenous country, genetically speaking.

The researchers used a larger proportion of the genomes (almost 700k SNPs) which by my limited knowledge should give a better estimate.

The fact that a separate study produced similar values is somewhat intriguing. I'll have to look into the regions from where the italians and the french were taken.

 

[davef]

According to this image, Ashkenazim are pretty close to Sardinians, Balkars (I looked them up just now, they're a Caucasian group) and Cypriots! And far from everyone else it seems. They only seem to cluster with other euros in how related they are to ancient groups. I have no idea where this was originally pulled from, but i got it from the Razib thread
Angela posted.

Interesting how close they are to another endogamous population with old middle eastern roots.does it explain why Ashkenazim score more neolithic european farmer than levantines?

Here's the link. Chances are I may have no idea what I'm talking about, so beware readers (unless you're someone like Angela or LeBrok who knows a lot about this topic).

http://m.imgur.com/xBV90aP

 

[Angela]

According to this image, Ashkenazim are pretty close to Sardinians, Balkars (I looked them up just now, they're a Caucasian group) and Cypriots! And far from everyone else it seems. They only seem to cluster with other euros in how related they are to ancient groups. I have no idea where this was originally pulled from, but i got it from the Razib thread
Angela posted.

Interesting how close they are to another endogamous population with old middle eastern roots.does it explain why Ashkenazim score more neolithic european farmer than levantines?

Here's the link. Chances are I may have no idea what I'm talking about, so beware readers (unless you're someone like Angela or LeBrok who knows a lot about this topic).

http://m.imgur.com/xBV90aP

Davef, if my memory serves, you tend to put an extraordinary amount of emphasis on certain results, like PCAs, or Admixture calculator scores from gedmatch. You have to look at the results from all the tools to try to figure out some of these relationships.

In terms of PCA, I take heed of them too, but they're only one tool, and by far not the best, as they sometimes account for only rather low amounts of total genetic variation, maybe 25% in some cases.

As for these Admixture gedmatch scores floating around, you should be aware that we have no way of independently verifying whether result X, supposedly from person Y from some specific city in Sicily, or Calabria, for example, are even Italian, much less from that particular province and city city. The same goes for any results. That's why I really only take account of academic admixture results.

As for this particular chart, it's based on fst, and measures total genetic distance. It doesn't tell you what ancient groups at what times admixed to form any of those populations, if that's your interest.

At the same time, Ashkenazim plot close to Cypriots on most PCAs, so that's more confirmation of a similarity. Once again, though, we can't tell the population genetics history of the Ashkenazim, or the Cypriots, for that matter, from those results.

 

[davef]

Thanks for the response!

I did put a lot of stock into those gedmatch programs when I shouldn't have because they don't pinpoint where those similarities came from since different populations shared some of the same genes.

I know that fst chart doesn't give the full story but I'm struck by how close Ashkenazim are to Sardinians in that fst chart which might explain much of their affinity with Europe and this might just minimize the amount of extra european admixture. But yet again Sardinians aren't anything like Bronze Age Canaanites at all.

And I question the reliability of the IBD test used in Xue and Carmi. 50 percent Levantine and the IBD amounts to nothing? Unless I'm unaware as to how the program was able to arrive at the 50 percent Levantine figure. That's half the genome. certainly one would expect IBD with the levant beyond someone who is 1/128 th palestinian 127/128 th Finnish (I pulled those values out of my nose).

I know using modern populations is iffy but with these same modern populations a gigantic 50 percent of the genome is related to them according to the admixture run.

Basic question.,..what triggered the admixture calculator to say "50 percent Levantine?" To me 50 percent Levantine by this calculator means you share half your genes with Levantines (not to necessarily say you have a Levantine parent from modern Syria or Lebanon etc). Feel free to point out the flaws in what I said btw.

 

[John Doe]

At the same time, Ashkenazim plot close to Cypriots on most PCAs, so that's more confirmation of a similarity. Once again, though, we can't tell the population genetics history of the Ashkenazim, or the Cypriots, for that matter, from those results.

Exactly, for example Ashkenazim plot closer to Maltese and Sicilians on most PCAs, however that doesn't mean one derived from the other or even that they derive from the same founder populations.

 

[davef]

True, and based on the fst chart Ashkenazim are more like Sardinians and Cypriots. Difference could be just due to drift and the supposed intermarriage with northerners. I don't know where the chart came from so I can't do much more than guess.

 

[davef]

According to another forum, the neolithic k13 results for one of the Bronze Age levantines are:
Natufian-47
Anatolia Neolithic -25
Iran Neolithic-21
EHG-4
SHG-WHG-.5

Approximations since I don't remember them off the top of my head but only should be off by less than one percent which means nothing here.

As shaky as it is to rely on calculators, this is still rather interesting. It's a long way to an Ashkenazim from here, genetically speaking.

 

[John Doe]

True, and based on the fst chart Ashkenazim are more like Sardinians and Cypriots. Difference could be just due to drift and the supposed intermarriage with northerners. I don't know where the chart came from so I can't do much more than guess.

Assuming the Gedmatch calculators are to be taken seriously, the difference of admixture between Cypriots and Sicilians/Maltese/AJs seems IMHO a little too big to be the result only of genetic drift.

P.S And that's of course assuming Cypriots represent a good proxy population to pre Exilic Jews, which is mere speculation. Who knows? Maybe, just maybe, as a result of Philistine settlement and what not pre exilic Jews were already Cretan/Aegean like? But again that's just speculation and one can entertain these blinds assumptions only so much...

 

[davef]

Not to worry, I'm not to say that the calculators know all .

And the fst chart on the left in that image (distance between eac other) Ashkenazim, cypriots, Balkars, and Sardinians seem to cluster with each other (cypriots more so with jews) and very very far from other europeans, including italians.

You're right, it was crazy for me to suggest drift with a little northern admixture contributed most if not all to the distance.

 

[John Doe]

You're right, it was crazy for me to suggest drift with a little northern admixture contributed most if not all to the distance.

Save the sarcasm, you typed "Difference could be just due to drift and the supposed intermarriage with northerners." so I assumed that when you say "supposed intermarriage", you meant that this was unlikely and that it can be due to drift only. But you know what? It might just be only to drift, because WE DON'T KNOW! That's the point! All this speculation in the dark produces nothing, we have to wait for more ancient DNA from the Near East and the Eastern Mediterranean.

 

[davef]

I apologize for sounding sarcastic; not to worry, I wasn't trying to be.

I do admit, we are hugging the walls with these calculators and nothing beats ancient genomes or being empirical.

 

[Zionas]

I'm quite sure that the origins of Ashnekazi and Sephardic Jews dates back further than the so-called Khazar theory. Speaking of Ashnekazi DNA there's someone on WeGene who has .2% Ashknekazi and a woman on the same site from Gansu who has less than .1%. Guy had .2% European and woman had .7%.

 

[Joey D]

This right here is why people assume that Ashkenazim have Italian DNA. Because Sicilians and Ashkenazim on PCA plots, are both roughly halfway between North Italians and modern day Levantines, people say "well, Ashkenazim are Levantine on the male side, North Italian on the female side, and thus plot like Sicilians when you mix it all up." But Sicilians have very low IBD sharing with the Levant, which implies that West Asian input into Sicily occurred in the Bronze Age rather than from Phoenicians or anything more recent, and that the Sikels, Sicanians, and Elymians at the time of contact with Phoenicians had already been genetically shifted toward West Asia.

At this point, Ashkenazim would not have existed... they'd still be Israelites. My guess is that ancient Israelites were probably closer to Druze than to Lebanese Arabs or Palestinians, and thus we should look at Druze or Cypriots as a good proxy, which means that you'd need closer to 1/3 South European admixture, not 1/2, to explain European Jews' plotting today. They only land in Sicily because Sicilians have enough West Asian affinity that they drift away from the core European cluster, it's not due to any directly shared ancestry. The same would be true of Cretans, who also are very close to Ashkenazim autosomally.

IBD sharing, above all, reflects how recent the exchange took place. Sicilians DO have high IBD sharing with Maghrebi people, implying that the North African input into the population is more recent. I am unclear if Ashkenazim have the same.

Not that this is scientific, but I have seen a few Druze results on GEDmatch and compared to Lebanese Arabs, they shift toward Iberia, Sardinia, etc. and their overall closest population is Cyprus.

I found this post really interesting. I get a relatively high Caucasus percentage in all the various DNA tests, such that in the various four population tests, I'm consistently getting placed in Armenia/Georgia; Greece; South Italy and Nth Italy or Tuscany.

It's been making me wonder: what is this Caucasus reading which consistently comes up? The only thing which might make sense to me is something pre-Greek, which means the Sicels (I'm East Sicilian going back four generations).

As it happens, Ashkenazi Jew pops up for me a fair bit.

 

[Rafou]

All modern jews, from the whole world are quite close to each other (ruling out a modern Era european admixture), and all seems to be in between modern europeans and levantines (suite clear on a PCA chart). We Know modern levantines are canaanites mostly. If we take a bible as a possible historical sources (it has proven to ne historicly accurate countless Times) the bible says that overtime the hebrews were condemned many Times for having mixed with canaanites (and adopting their Baal cults) and After the macchabean révolt, with edomites (who were also partly canaanites). Their paternal ancestry is claimed by themselves to Come from king Herod who was, in historical and biblical records a grandson (paternal Line) of an edomite usurper put in place by Rome. This edomite and canaanites admixture was concentrated mostly in cities during impérial roman Era, the countrysides remaining more hebrew. That means many things:
J1 is edomite dna
E1B1A is probably canaanites dna
We dont Know the ancient hebrew haplotype.
Ancient Hebrews were close to modern europeans populations.
This explains ancient hebrew relying on milk as a major food source and Being a pastoral War tribe.
This explains biblical and historical depictions of them being "white" (David depiction, galileans depiction...)
This explains the 10 Lost tribes assimilating so well with the scythians before Germanic invasions
This explains Spartans being called abrahamites in the bible.
This explains christ calling pharisees "seed of Satan and false sons of Abraham"
This explains said pharisees to have a racial préjudice against galileans (wich implies a visible ethnic différence)

 

[Angela]

Perhaps this will help to clear up your confusion, but given your content it's perhaps a vain hope. All Modern Jews are emphatically NOT close to one another on a PCA.

 

[Rafou]

True the one who stayed in the middle east got more middle eastern, just as the whole of middle east got mixed and arabised during the ottoman empire

 

[Jovialis]

Distance to:	Late_Bronze_Age_Israel_(n=3)
4.81597342	Jordanian_Christian
4.96166303	Palestinian_Christian
5.14854348	Syrian_Christian
6.88400320	Lebanese_Christian
9.45394627	Palestinian
10.05734060	Lebanese_Muslim
10.06485966	Syrian_Muslim
10.10386560	Nusayri_Turkey
10.10678485	Jordanian_Muslim
10.83453275	Iraqi_Jew
11.34150343	Kurdish_Jew
13.09022154	Assyrian_West
13.13603441	Greek_Cypriot
13.19895450	Assyrian_South
13.77141242	Mandean
13.89213806	Assyrian_North
14.09925175	Azerbaijani_Jew
14.45971991	Iraqi_Arab
14.60487247	Iraqi_Baghdad
14.90190256	Turk_Cyprus
15.90668413	Iranian_Arab
15.92851845	Armenian_West
16.73498730	Greek_Cappadocia
17.01042621	Coptic_Egypt
18.14040518	Armenian_East

 

[Jovialis]

Distance to:	Ashkenazi
1.82282747	Ashkenazy_Jews
8.32329262	Sephardic_Jews
11.91236333	Morocco_Jews
28.69215921	Uzbekistan_Jews
29.72223747	Georgia_Jews
29.86268575	Iraq_Jews
30.51622519	Azerbaijan_Jews
31.89576774	Iranian_Jews
47.77781284	Yemen_Jews
53.09406747	Bnei_Menashe_Jews
68.14027884	Cochin_Jews
73.87435279	Ethiopian_Jews

Ashkenazi are already a notable distance from Sephardic, and Morocco (i.e. Western Jews). The others are completely out of the ball park.

Their ties are based on religion, not close genetic affinity. The Jewish diaspora mixed in with their host countries.