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Thread: Non-Scandinavians in Viking armies

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    Non-Scandinavians in Viking armies



    I am reading Saxo Grammaticus, Book VIII of his "Deeds of the Danes":

    https://sites.google.com/site/margre...saxo/ksiega-08

    He describes a battle between Viking kings Harald Hildetand and Sigurd Ring.

    Although most of Viking warlords appear to be Scandinavian, he also mentiones foreigners. While listing individually the most prominent warlords who took part in that battle, he mentions Orm the Englishman, Duk the Slav, Ubbe the Frisian, Wisna the Slavic shieldmaiden (who led a group of Slavic warriors), Ger from Livonia (under command of shieldmaiden Hed), Saxi Flettir who lived along the northern Elbe [Saxon?], Tove [Slav?], Odd the Englishman, Gram Bryndælski [Slav?]. Later, while describing the "orders of battle", Saxo writes that Sigurd Ring's force was supported by "large units of Aestians and Curonians", which were deployed on both flanks. Harald Hildetand's force was supported by "Slavs, Livonians, and seven thousand Saxons". The last number - 7,000 - is likely an exaggeration. And also it seems that Slavs and Livonians were both more numerous than Saxons, because they were mentioned first.

    Gram Bryndælski sounds a bit like Big Lebowski (who also looks like a potential Viking):


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    1.) lol Sigh. Jeff Bridges, the star of "The Big Lebowski," is not Polish or slavic. He is of English, Irish, Swiss-German and German descent.

    2.) The Gesta Danorum, though a dramatic and thrilling read, is large parts myth, folklore, and legend, with faint doses of historicity.

    3.) The Battle of Bråvalla, which Book VIII covers, probably didn't take place at all, let alone in such a grandiose fashion. Many of the warriors named in the battle were parts of disparate tales of legend mentioned in other sagas and oral traditions. Something equivalent would be the Fellowship of the Ring from Tolkien or the Justice League. lol

    4.) The battle involved many different neighboring clans, tribes and peoples in order to highlight its massive scope; every people implicated within the larger "Viking world" was present. And it's no secret that the "Viking World" covered everywhere from the British Isles and surrounding North Sea countries to the Baltics, south of the baltic and as far east as Russia.

    5.) As far as reality is concerned, figures like Harald Bluetooth, for example, did use mercenaries, most likely from places like Poland:

    The fact that Harold Bluetooth made use of ‘foreign workers’ in his army comes as no surprise to Dr Dobat.


    “The noticeable presence of foreigners is possibly an expression of a very deliberate strategy that was used by the political elite in Viking Age Denmark. Many upheavals took place in Denmark during the tenth century. Societal conditions underwent radical changes, and a number of fundamentally new institutions were introduced: monarchy, the kingdom, military organisation, land ownership, market economy, coins and coinage economy, towns and cities, Christianity, and so on,” says Dr Dobat.


    For Harold Bluetooth to accomplish such drastic changes, he had to depend on loyal supporters, and it was easiest for him to find them abroad. The foreigners were not expected to abide by the Viking society’s rules and common law, because they were not caught up in the kinship relations that otherwise characterised the traditional Viking society. Neither were they subject to the nobility, which – according to later written sources – was in opposition to Harold Bluetooth.


    Other kings made use of a similar strategy, such as King David I of Scotland in the twelfth century and the Osman sultans in the fifteenth century.


    Dr Dobat thus argues that the building up of the Danish state took place with significant outside help.


    “As a result of my research, the formation process of the state in Denmark – or at least the Viking Age phase of this lengthy process – appears to depend in part on the activity and influence of people from abroad,” concludes Dr Dobat.
    http://www.au.dk/en/about/news/singl...h-mercenaries/

    6.) Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    1.) lol Sigh. Jeff Bridges, the star of "The Big Lebowski," is not Polish or slavic. He is of English, Irish, Swiss-German and German descent.

    2.) The Gesta Danorum, though a dramatic and thrilling read, is large parts myth, folklore, and legend, with faint doses of historicity.

    3.) The Battle of Bråvalla, which Book VIII covers, probably didn't take place at all, let alone in such a grandiose fashion. Many of the warriors named in the battle were parts of disparate tales of legend mentioned in other sagas and oral traditions. Something equivalent would be the Fellowship of the Ring from Tolkien or the Justice League. lol

    4.) The battle involved many different neighboring clans, tribes and peoples in order to highlight its massive scope; every people implicated within the larger "Viking world" was present. And it's no secret that the "Viking World" covered everywhere from the British Isles and surrounding North Sea countries to the Baltics, south of the baltic and as far east as Russia.

    5.) As far as reality is concerned, figures like Harald Bluetooth, for example, did use mercenaries, most likely from places like Poland:



    http://www.au.dk/en/about/news/singl...h-mercenaries/

    6.) Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.
    You have some legitimate criticism of Slavic nationalism- but you invalidate yourself with your attacks on imaginary straw men. I've never seen any pan-Slavists getting emotional or personal on Eupedia. Perhaps there have been instances but I've yet to encounter any.

    Personally I can't stand Slavic Nordicism. Russians and even Ukrainians and Belarusians who brag about their "Viking heritage" and the "Rus" infuriate me. The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav". The fact that they were blond-haired and blue-eyed and promoted as the master race by the Nazis (our enemies) should say something. All of these morons are an embarrassment and their God, Hitler, would have put them in concentration camps. But no, let's blame the big Jewish conspiracy shall we?

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    Wanderlust: Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.
    One more ethnic insult from you, or insult of any kind, and you're going to get an infraction. There will be no more warnings. Cut it out. We don't allow that kind of thing here.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One more ethnic insult from you, or insult of any kind, and you're going to get an infraction. There will be no more warnings. Cut it out. We don't allow that kind of thing here.
    ? I made no such "ethnic insult." As Dinard cosigned, there are pro-Nordic slavic nationalists (I wasn't even specifically speaking about those on this site but more broadly--they are all over reddit, stormfront and other anthrophora) who use this type of information as validation. Nationalist movements usually employ romanticized, hyper-masculine, heroic, mythological figures in recreating and emboldening their national image--Hitler personified this better than most. That's the truth. That's a phenomena that actually happens. And I find the lengths that some will go to in order to "raise themselves up" to be desperate. Does making a truthful statement amount to an insult? Nowhere did I actively insult slavs as a people or culture. If anything, I'm very critical of nationalism.

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    Wanderlust: Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One more ethnic insult from you, or insult of any kind, and you're going to get an infraction. There will be no more warnings. Cut it out. We don't allow that kind of thing here.
    I know it seems harsh on the surface, but I think he refers to Slavic Nationalists only, and not implicating all the Slavs. When I've read it I pictured Rethel and alike. The first post depicting Jeff Bridges, as an example of Slavic Viking, is nothing more but romantic wishful thinking of Tomenable. Nothing of historic and real value here but psychological need (of whatever) by Tomenable.
    In short, Wanderlust poured a cold bucket of water on romantic Tomenable's head. In a bit brutal manner, I must say, but maybe this is what it takes to wake people up from a dream?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    ? I made no such "ethnic insult." As Dinard cosigned, there are pro-Nordic slavic nationalists (I wasn't even specifically speaking about those on this site but more broadly--they are all over reddit, stormfront and other anthrophora) who use this type of information as validation. Nationalist movements usually employ romanticized, hyper-masculine, heroic, mythological figures in recreating and emboldening their national image--Hitler personified this better than most. That's the truth. That's a phenomena that actually happens. And I find the lengths that some will go to in order to "raise themselves up" to be desperate. Does making a truthful statement amount to an insult? Nowhere did I actively insult slavs as a people or culture. If anything, I'm very critical of nationalism.
    Every time I see an avatar with a knight in medieval armor I know what to expect. At least in Tomenable's avatar there is no weapon showing. What does that mean though? lol
    Should we open a thread "Psychology behind Avatars"? It might have a great entertaining value at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I know it seems harsh on the surface, but I think he refers to Slavic Nationalists only, and not implicating all the Slavs. When I've read it I pictured Rethel and alike. The first post depicting Jeff Bridges, as an example of Slavic Viking, is nothing more but romantic wishful thinking of Tomenable. Nothing of historic and real value here but psychological need (of whatever) by Tomenable.
    In short, Wanderlust poured a cold bucket of water on romantic Tomenable's head. In a bit brutal manner, I must say, but maybe this is what it takes to wake people up from a dream?
    For what it is worth, I'm a Slav and I wasn't offended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    You have some legitimate criticism of Slavic nationalism- but you invalidate yourself with your attacks on imaginary straw men. I've never seen any pan-Slavists getting emotional or personal on Eupedia. Perhaps there have been instances but I've yet to encounter any.
    Rethel is one of recent examples, and there were quite few in the past. Together with Greeks, Albanians, Spaniards and even a Hungarian.

    Personally I can't stand Slavic Nordicism. Russians and even Ukrainians and Belarusians who brag about their "Viking heritage" and the "Rus" infuriate me. The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav". The fact that they were blond-haired and blue-eyed and promoted as the master race by the Nazis (our enemies) should say something. All of these morons are an embarrassment and their God, Hitler, would have put them in concentration camps. But no, let's blame the big Jewish conspiracy shall we?
    Well said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    You have some legitimate criticism of Slavic nationalism- but you invalidate yourself with your attacks on imaginary straw men. I've never seen any pan-Slavists getting emotional or personal on Eupedia. Perhaps there have been instances but I've yet to encounter any.

    Personally I can't stand Slavic Nordicism. Russians and even Ukrainians and Belarusians who brag about their "Viking heritage" and the "Rus" infuriate me. The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav". The fact that they were blond-haired and blue-eyed and promoted as the master race by the Nazis (our enemies) should say something. All of these morons are an embarrassment and their God, Hitler, would have put them in concentration camps. But no, let's blame the big Jewish conspiracy shall we?
    1.) You misuse the term "strawmen." I abhor strawman arguments--and so, you're definitely mistaken. I made a tangential but off the cuff remark that was not in response to a real or imagined argument.

    2.) I've lurked around here for years and some of the slavic members, particularly from the Balkans and approximate areas, seem to have their own unending, internal warfare going on. And they've become quite "emotional and personal" about it, to the point of being banned.

    3.) And I agree about Slavic Nordicism and Nordicism of any kind. It's all based on arbitrary nonsense--hair and eye color? Seriously? And worst of all to me, they celebrate the most savage, brutal and barbaric aspects of Nordic peoples. Personally, If I had a to choose an "admirable" ethnic model, I'd go with the Greeks or the Italians. Not only did they have masterful warriors like the Spartans and the Roman legions but they were also world class thinkers and philosophers. But, as is the case with many a nationalist movement, might is held in higher esteem than brains. And as far as the South Slavs are concerned, you have the Order of the Dragon and Vlad Dracula--I mean, c'mon. As far as "folk symbols" go, it gets no cooler than that! Nordicism is unnecessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    1.) You misuse the term "strawmen." I abhor strawman arguments--and so, you're definitely mistaken. I made a tangential but off the cuff remark that was not in response to a real or imagined argument.

    2.) I've lurked around here for years and some of the slavic members, particularly from the Balkans and approximate areas, seem to have their own unending, internal warfare going on. And they've become quite "emotional and personal" about it, to the point of being banned.

    3.) And I agree about Slavic Nordicism and Nordicism of any kind. It's all based on arbitrary nonsense--hair and eye color? Seriously? And worst of all to me, they celebrate the most savage, brutal and barbaric aspects of Nordic peoples. Personally, If I had a to choose an "admirable" ethnic model, I'd go with the Greeks or the Italians. Not only did they have masterful warriors like the Spartans and the Roman legions but they were also world class thinkers and philosophers. But, as is the case with many a nationalist movement, might is held in higher esteem than brains. And as far as the South Slavs are concerned, you have the Order of the Dragon and Vlad Dracula--I mean, c'mon. As far as "folk symbols" go, it gets no cooler than that! Nordicism is unnecessary.
    As I stated earlier I haven't seen any radical and emotional Slavic nationalists assailing people. If you have, I apologize.

    As far as your response to my point, I can't thank you enough. These morons are so brainwashed into believing in a big Jewish conspiracy and think that His Holiness Vladimir Putin will come save them. Literally. I'm not even exaggerating. I've actually seen Serbs and Poles commenting on YouTube videos comparing him to God. These Poles (not all of them) must have a very short memory. But there's also a supposedly anti-Hitler version of National Socialism gaining ground in far-right Pan-Slavic circles. They claim that they hate everything Nazi due to the genocide of our people by them, but they blame Jews for all their problems (including collaboration with the Nazis against the Slavic nation- yes, I'm serious) and, of greater relevance to this thread, espouse an particularly irritating Slavic variant of Nordicism. So basically they're just neo-Nazis who don't want to call themselves that. A true Slavic nationalist would be quite hostile to Nordicism, which was promoted by the Germans when they sought to exterminate us.

    EDIT:
    To add to this point I believe that these pathetic Slavic Nordicists on Stormfront and the like are doing this not just because of Germanic beauty standards and the glorification of the Nordic race, but also to appease their Western European and European-American fellow White nationalists. Quite hypocritical since they accuse people of sucking up to the Jews and being a "good goy" (i.e. YouTube comments). To me any Russian or Ukrainian or Belarusian who brags about their Viking heritage or praises the Wehrmacht, any Croatian Ustaša supporter, any Czech member of that new neo-Nazi party, or any Slovak who praises that dictator whose name escapes me at the moment, any Bosniak who brags about the Handžar Division, and any Serb who praises the Germans in WWII (yes, such idiots exist) has forfeited his or her right to be called a Slav. Tens of millions of our people died at the hands of totalitarianism and this is a sickening insult to their memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I know it seems harsh on the surface, but I think he refers to Slavic Nationalists only, and not implicating all the Slavs. When I've read it I pictured Rethel and alike. The first post depicting Jeff Bridges, as an example of Slavic Viking, is nothing more but romantic wishful thinking of Tomenable. Nothing of historic and real value here but psychological need (of whatever) by Tomenable.
    In short, Wanderlust poured a cold bucket of water on romantic Tomenable's head. In a bit brutal manner, I must say, but maybe this is what it takes to wake people up from a dream?
    Thank you LeBrok--you perfectly encapsulate my thinking. First of all, you are right--I was not targeting "all slavs." Secondly, autosomally, I have a little north slavic ancestry myself and am far from a self-loather--You, Tomenable and I are distantly removed cousins. Thirdly, I spend way too much time in Eastern Europe with wonderful slavic people of all nationalities to ever see them or treat them as some monolithic entity.

    It's just that threads like this are so transparent. And then to mix it with false information? It's quite irritating. Furthermore, I'm a firm believer in kinesthetic learning. Some people don't respond to reasons, facts and entreaties for compassion. But they respond to their own feelings. And when their (usually hyper-sensitive, fragile) feelings and pride are stung, they get the message far quicker. Having said that, I don't go out of my way to be mean. But the cold hard facts themselves are "mean," which is why I don't understand the overall lack of humility some of these people have in their views towards others. Why should any group think they're better than others? What people on earth have not suffered indignities? What people have not been humbled or brought low? Life has been mean to all of us, and still is. And yet some of us like to ignore it or have forgotten it. I think the occasional reminder is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Every time I see an avatar with a knight in medieval armor I know what to expect. At least in Tomenable's avatar there is no weapon showing. What does that mean though? lol
    Should we open a thread "Psychology behind Avatars"? It might have a great entertaining value at least.

    LOL You should also be concerned when you see Nordic runes! But mine is a symbol for "peace"; I specifically chose to use a rune, knowing that nowadays many Nordicist/Pan Germanic racists have co-opted these symbols. I'm a lover of irony and juxtapositioning! ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    For what it is worth, I'm a Slav and I wasn't offended.
    Thanks cousin, because I sincerely meant no ill will to you or the rest of our strong, slavic Brethren! But some of the nationalists are indeed, problematic....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    As I stated earlier I haven't seen any radical and emotional Slavic nationalists assailing people. If you have, I apologize.

    As far as your response to my point, I can't thank you enough. These morons are so brainwashed into believing in a big Jewish conspiracy and think that His Holiness Vladimir Putin will come save them. Literally. I'm not even exaggerating. I've actually seen Serbs and Poles commenting on YouTube videos comparing him to God. These Poles (not all of them) must have a very short memory. But there's also a supposedly anti-Hitler version of National Socialism gaining ground in far-right Pan-Slavic circles. They claim that they hate everything Nazi due to the genocide of our people by them, but they blame Jews for all their problems (including collaboration with the Nazis against the Slavic nation- yes, I'm serious) and, of greater relevance to this thread, espouse an particularly irritating Slavic variant of Nordicism. So basically they're just neo-Nazis who don't want to call themselves that. A true Slavic nationalist would be quite hostile to Nordicism, which was promoted by the Germans when they sought to exterminate us.

    EDIT:
    To add to this point I believe that these pathetic Slavic Nordicists on Stormfront and the like are doing this not just because of Germanic beauty standards and the glorification of the Nordic race, but also to appease their Western European and European-American fellow White nationalists. Quite hypocritical since they accuse people of sucking up to the Jews and being a "good goy" (i.e. YouTube comments). To me any Russian or Ukrainian or Belarusian who brags about their Viking heritage or praises the Wehrmacht, any Croatian Ustaša supporter, any Czech member of that new neo-Nazi party, or any Slovak who praises that dictator whose name escapes me at the moment, any Bosniak who brags about the Handžar Division, and any Serb who praises the Germans in WWII (yes, such idiots exist) has forfeited his or her right to be called a Slav. Tens of millions of our people died at the hands of totalitarianism and this is a sickening insult to their memory.
    100% agreed with everything you wrote here. To me, if you're going to be a nationalist, celebrate your own people, history and culture. Celebrate your own successes and achievements. It is beyond ridiculous to grow one's ethnic, "national" esteem through celebration of different nationalities and their leaders and movements. And it's even MORE ludicrous to celebrate the ideologies of nations and peoples that had a direct hand in your disenfranchisement and destruction. What kind of self-loathing, brainwashed lunacy is that? Europe is incredibly diverse and every people has their own story that is worth being told. Yes, a lot of our histories and cultures are intertwined, but we still have our own unique folk heroes and symbols, languages, dialects and ways of looking at the world. If a nationalist has to look to outside of his group and to others to gain esteem and inspiration, then something is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    Thank you LeBrok--you perfectly encapsulate my thinking. First of all, you are right--I was not targeting "all slavs." Secondly, autosomally, I have a little north slavic ancestry myself and am far from a self-loather--You, Tomenable and I are distantly removed cousins. Thirdly, I spend way too much time in Eastern Europe with wonderful slavic people of all nationalities to ever see them or treat as some monolithic entity.
    I have 4% of Scandinavian and 4% of Balkan, the rest 92% says East European. How boring and ironic for a Citizen of the World, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have 4% of Scandinavian and 4% of Balkan, the rest 92% says East European. How boring and ironic for a Citizen of the World, lol.
    Lol Funny. I'm almost the reverse: 87% Scandinavian, 5% British, 4% Eastern European, 3% Baltic and 1% Italian. And truth be told, I hold on to that 1% Italian for dear life! lol

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    To be fair though, I don't know if this is what Tomenable meant to imply. I think he was just making an innocent post about Slavs in the ranks of the Vikings- however, the point about Slavic Nordicism needed to be raised and I'm glad it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    To be fair though, I don't know if this is what Tomenable meant to imply. I think he was just making an innocent post about Slavs in the ranks of the Vikings- however, the point about Slavic Nordicism needed to be raised and I'm glad it was.
    Part of it is ignorance, part of it is subconscious and part of it is an explicit agenda--my private correspondence with him confirms this to me. In my opinion, he is bright but young and misguided.

    Regardless, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, his OP had some problematic elements and I wanted to elucidate some of the issues.

    But YES, historically, there were non-Scandinavian Vikings from what is now Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Friesland, Germany, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and so on:

    "Viking Ethnicities: A Historiographic Overview"

    http://www.academia.edu/1499804/Viki...aphic_overview

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    About Harald Bluetooth's army:

    "(...) The famous Danish chronicler Saxo, in his ‘Danish History’ gives an account of the reign of Harald Bluetooth (...) He also reports that the king, towards the end of his rule and in a period contemporary with the Trelleborg fortresses, based his power on an army composed of ‘Danes and Slavs’. According to a twelfth-century chronicler, the so-called ‘law of the Kings’, retainers became necessary because of the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the royal retinue at the beginning of the eleventh century (for a more detailed review of the sources compare M. Andersen 1982; Damgaard-Sørensen 1991; Dobat 2010). (...)"

    Source:

    "Who was in Harold Bluetooth’s army?: Strontium isotope investigation of the cemetery at the Viking Age fortress at Trelleborg..."

    Link: http://pure.au.dk/portal/en/publicat...0fa66716).html

    Harald Bluetooth's wife was also Slavic - Tofa, daughter of Prince Mstivoy of the Obodrites:

    http://history.org.ua/JournALL/ruthe..._suppl4/10.pdf

    "(...) The wife of their paternal grandfather, Haraldr Gormsson (Bluetooth), was a Slav called Tofa. She was a daughter of Mstivoy, apparently the princely ruler of the Slavic Obodrites. It is not entirely clear whether Tofa was their grandmother, i.e., whether she had been the mother of Svein Haraldsson (Forkbeard) (...)"

    Svein Forkbeard later also married a Slavic woman - one of daughters of Mieszko I of Poland.

    That daughter was the mother of Canute the Great.

    Assuming that Tofa was Canute's grandmother - then Canute was 75% Slavic (autosomally).

    Check also:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ory-of-Denmark
    Last edited by Tomenable; 15-07-16 at 10:08.

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    Wanderlust,

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust
    my private correspondence with him confirms this to me
    Good that you reminded me about this.

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    Dinarid,

    Considering that Rurik's Y-DNA was N1c, it looks like someone was raped by Siberians:

    Migrations of haplogroups N (red arrows + blue arrows) and N1c (black arrows):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid
    The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav".
    You apparently don't know, that in Old Norse language the word for slave was thrall:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrall

    Check also the Old Norse - English dictionary (English slave = Old Norse þræll):

    http://www.vikingsofbjornstad.com/Ol...ary_E2N.shtm#s

    Slave is an English word, borrowed from French, borrowed from Latin, borrowed from Greek.

    The ultimate origin of the world is from Byzantine-era Latin and from Byzantine-era Greek.

    It indicates, that the word originated from South Slavs, not from East or West Slavs.

    I explained this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    As for the association of ethnonym Slavs with the new term for "slaves", which emerged during the Early Middle Ages:

    That association emerged after original Slavic-speaking invaders enslaved many ethnic Non-Slavs, and then allowed them to join their communities (this is one of reasons why Slavs were so successful in colonizing half of Europe in a very short time - they increased their numbers not just due to natural growth, but also by enslaving Non-Slavic locals and "turning them into Slavs", assimilating them).

    Ethno-linguistic ancestors of modern South Slavs came to the Balkans from North-Eastern and North-Central Europe after 500 AD.

    I never really understood this whole idea that modern South Slavs are supposedly the most "mixed" and the "least Slavic" of all Slavs. The most "mixed" (chiefly with Ugro-Finns and with Turkic tribes) are perhaps some of East Slavs. All archaeological and written evidence point to replacement in the Balkans during the Slavic invasion and colonization (even though sources also describe Slavs as enslaving Roman citizens and then liberating them and incorporating into their own tribes - so some degree of mixing with local Non-Slavs certainly took place).

    Emperor Maurice in his "Strategikon" noticed, that Slavs treated their slaves (captives) in different ways than other peoples did.

    Quote:

    "(...) Slavs, unlike all other peoples, do not keep captives in perpetual slavery, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can either return home if they purchase their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

    So, according to "Strategikon", Slavic invaders used to incorporate captives into their ranks. They had an unusual habit of liberating their slaves and incorporating them into their own communities as free people - thus increasing their own numbers very fast.

    This also hints to the origin of association of ethnonym Slavs with the new, Early Medieval Latin term for "slaves".

    Slavic warriors enslaved thousands of Non-Slavs, and incorporated them into their own tribes as free people - unlike the majority of other peoples, who used to keep their captives in perpetual slavery, rather than mixing with them.

    Therefore Slavic tribes which emerged in the Balkans must have included some descendants of former Byzantine citizens who got captured by the Slavs, then liberated, then linguistically and culturally assimilated into Slavic communities.

    This is also confirmed by other sources, for example by these excerpts from Procopius of Caesarea:

    Procopius of Caesarea, Book VII, XIII - describing the events in year 545 AD:

    Quote:

    "(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni [Slavs], had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister [Danube], plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

    Another excerpt from Procopius:

    "(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sclavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either enslaved or killed (...)"

    And here an excerpt from John of Ephesus:

    "(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, enslaving and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

    Also a passage from Menander Protector:

    "(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste and enslaved by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"

    Jordanes about the three branches of early Slavic-speaking peoples (ethnonym Slavs comes from just one of them - the Sclaveni):

    "(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...)"

    Procopius of Caesarea once again (about Slavic foederati/mercenaries fighting under Belisarius):

    "(...) Belisarius was eager to capture alive one of the men of note among the enemy, in order that he might learn what the reason might be why the barbarians were holding out in their desperate situation. And Valerian promised readily to perform such a service for him. For there were some men in his command, he said, from the nation of the Sclaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their slave hunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

    And also: http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

    "(...) There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows (...)"

    So early Slavs were famous for their slave hunts, in which they enslaved both Roman citizens, and other barbarians. Most of those captives were later becoming members of Slavic tribes, as "Strategikon" says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Harald Hildetand and Harald Bluetooth were TWO different persons, living in different times.
    Duh. Trust me, I know Scandinavian history, I don't need to be educated by you--nowhere did I say or imply that they were the same person. I only used Harald Bluetooth's association with Slavs as an example rooted in more vetted and substantiated facts (exhumed Vikings and their DNA), because Saxo's accounts are unreliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    "(...) It is not entirely clear whether Tofa was their grandmother, i.e., whether she had been the mother of Svein Haraldsson (Forkbeard) (...)"

    Svein Forkbeard later also married a Slavic woman - one of daughters of Mieszko I of Poland.
    That daughter was the mother of Canute the Great.

    Assuming than Tofa was Canute's grandmother - then Canute was 75% Slavic (autosomally).
    Just so we're clear:

    1.) It is not clear that Tofa was the mother of Svein Haraldsson. Much of the history surrounding this is contested and unfounded.

    2.) It is not clear that Canute's mother was a daughter of Mieszko I of Poland, though there is a bit more corroborated evidence (by way of independent chroniclers) that this is likely.

    Therefore, all you really have to go on is speculation and assumptions.

    3.) Even if Canute had been 75% slavic (autosomally--certainly not culturally), so what? What are the implications? What does that do for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You apparently don't know, that in Old Norse language the word for slave was thrall:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrall

    Check also the Old Norse - English dictionary (English slave = Old Norse þræll):

    http://www.vikingsofbjornstad.com/Ol...ary_E2N.shtm#s

    Slave is an English word, borrowed from French, borrowed from Latin, borrowed from Greek.

    The ultimate origin of the world is from Byzantine-era Latin and from Byzantine-era Greek.

    It indicates, that the word originated from South Slavs, not from East or West Slavs.

    I explained this here:
    None of that changes history. The Vikings glorified by so many stupid Slavs committed atrocities against our people, and by continuously glorifying them and using Nordic beauty standards we are insulting our ancestors. I'm not saying we should despise everything Germanic, rather, we should simply stop the glorification of those invaded our land and murdered our people. Slavs should look to ourselves for inspiration. We are a proud people and we don't need to adapt anyone else's culture or beauty standards.

    As far as your comment about Haplogroup N, point taken, but that doesn't erase what the Vikings did.

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    Dinarid,

    If all of the Vikings emigrated from Scandinavia and settled in other countries, then who are their descendants today?

    Modern Scandinavians like Wanderlust are descended from those who were too weak to get on boats and emigrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Dinarid,

    If all of the Vikings emigrated from Scandinavia and settled in other countries, then who are their descendants today?

    Modern Scandinavians like Wanderlust are descended from those who were too weak to get on boats and emigrate.
    Not us if that's what you're implying. Slavic R1a is generally closer to the Asian branch than it is to the Germanic branch. Some Germanic R1a is actually in this eastern branch (R1a1a1b) but the majority is R1a1a1a. Perhaps we could assume that all European R1a1a1b is of Slavic origin but this would have very little evidence. As far as I know only in small areas in northern Russia is there significant concentrations of I1. That's pretty much the only place where those Vikings settled in significant numbers. I have nothing to do with the Vikings and neither do the vast majority of Slavs let alone Croats.

    As far as the comments about Wanderlust, I wouldn't go there… the Vikings in Scandinavia continued ruling their own homeland and evolved into the modern Nordic nations.

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