Non-Scandinavians in Viking armies

[Tomenable]

I am reading Saxo Grammaticus, Book VIII of his "Deeds of the Danes":

https://sites.google.com/site/margreteerykiunia/44-saxo/ksiega-08

He describes a battle between Viking kings Harald Hildetand and Sigurd Ring.

Although most of Viking warlords appear to be Scandinavian, he also mentiones foreigners. While listing individually the most prominent warlords who took part in that battle, he mentions Orm the Englishman, Duk the Slav, Ubbe the Frisian, Wisna the Slavic shieldmaiden (who led a group of Slavic warriors), Ger from Livonia (under command of shieldmaiden Hed), Saxi Flettir who lived along the northern Elbe [Saxon?], Tove [Slav?], Odd the Englishman, Gram Bryndælski [Slav?]. Later, while describing the "orders of battle", Saxo writes that Sigurd Ring's force was supported by "large units of Aestians and Curonians", which were deployed on both flanks. Harald Hildetand's force was supported by "Slavs, Livonians, and seven thousand Saxons". The last number - 7,000 - is likely an exaggeration. And also it seems that Slavs and Livonians were both more numerous than Saxons, because they were mentioned first.

Gram Bryndælski sounds a bit like Big Lebowski (who also looks like a potential Viking):

 

[Wanderlust]

1.) lol Sigh. Jeff Bridges, the star of "The Big Lebowski," is not Polish or slavic. He is of English, Irish, Swiss-German and German descent.

2.) The Gesta Danorum, though a dramatic and thrilling read, is large parts myth, folklore, and legend, with faint doses of historicity.

3.) The Battle of Bråvalla, which Book VIII covers, probably didn't take place at all, let alone in such a grandiose fashion. Many of the warriors named in the battle were parts of disparate tales of legend mentioned in other sagas and oral traditions. Something equivalent would be the Fellowship of the Ring from Tolkien or the Justice League. lol

4.) The battle involved many different neighboring clans, tribes and peoples in order to highlight its massive scope; every people implicated within the larger "Viking world" was present. And it's no secret that the "Viking World" covered everywhere from the British Isles and surrounding North Sea countries to the Baltics, south of the baltic and as far east as Russia.

5.) As far as reality is concerned, figures like Harald Bluetooth, for example, did use mercenaries, most likely from places like Poland:

The fact that Harold Bluetooth made use of ‘foreign workers’ in his army comes as no surprise to Dr Dobat.


“The noticeable presence of foreigners is possibly an expression of a very deliberate strategy that was used by the political elite in Viking Age Denmark. Many upheavals took place in Denmark during the tenth century. Societal conditions underwent radical changes, and a number of fundamentally new institutions were introduced: monarchy, the kingdom, military organisation, land ownership, market economy, coins and coinage economy, towns and cities, Christianity, and so on,” says Dr Dobat.


For Harold Bluetooth to accomplish such drastic changes, he had to depend on loyal supporters, and it was easiest for him to find them abroad. The foreigners were not expected to abide by the Viking society’s rules and common law, because they were not caught up in the kinship relations that otherwise characterised the traditional Viking society. Neither were they subject to the nobility, which – according to later written sources – was in opposition to Harold Bluetooth.


Other kings made use of a similar strategy, such as King David I of Scotland in the twelfth century and the Osman sultans in the fifteenth century.


Dr Dobat thus argues that the building up of the Danish state took place with significant outside help.


“As a result of my research, the formation process of the state in Denmark – or at least the Viking Age phase of this lengthy process – appears to depend in part on the activity and influence of people from abroad,” concludes Dr Dobat.

http://www.au.dk/en/about/news/single/artikel/harold-bluetooths-vikings-were-polish-mercenaries/

6.) Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.

 

[Dinarid]

1.) lol Sigh. Jeff Bridges, the star of "The Big Lebowski," is not Polish or slavic. He is of English, Irish, Swiss-German and German descent.

2.) The Gesta Danorum, though a dramatic and thrilling read, is large parts myth, folklore, and legend, with faint doses of historicity.

3.) The Battle of Bråvalla, which Book VIII covers, probably didn't take place at all, let alone in such a grandiose fashion. Many of the warriors named in the battle were parts of disparate tales of legend mentioned in other sagas and oral traditions. Something equivalent would be the Fellowship of the Ring from Tolkien or the Justice League. lol

4.) The battle involved many different neighboring clans, tribes and peoples in order to highlight its massive scope; every people implicated within the larger "Viking world" was present. And it's no secret that the "Viking World" covered everywhere from the British Isles and surrounding North Sea countries to the Baltics, south of the baltic and as far east as Russia.

5.) As far as reality is concerned, figures like Harald Bluetooth, for example, did use mercenaries, most likely from places like Poland:



http://www.au.dk/en/about/news/single/artikel/harold-bluetooths-vikings-were-polish-mercenaries/

6.) Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.

You have some legitimate criticism of Slavic nationalism- but you invalidate yourself with your attacks on imaginary straw men. I've never seen any pan-Slavists getting emotional or personal on Eupedia. Perhaps there have been instances but I've yet to encounter any.

Personally I can't stand Slavic Nordicism. Russians and even Ukrainians and Belarusians who brag about their "Viking heritage" and the "Rus" infuriate me. The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav". The fact that they were blond-haired and blue-eyed and promoted as the master race by the Nazis (our enemies) should say something. All of these morons are an embarrassment and their God, Hitler, would have put them in concentration camps. But no, let's blame the big Jewish conspiracy shall we?

 

[Angela]

Wanderlust: Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.

One more ethnic insult from you, or insult of any kind, and you're going to get an infraction. There will be no more warnings. Cut it out. We don't allow that kind of thing here.

 

[Wanderlust]

One more ethnic insult from you, or insult of any kind, and you're going to get an infraction. There will be no more warnings. Cut it out. We don't allow that kind of thing here.

? I made no such "ethnic insult." As Dinard cosigned, there are pro-Nordic slavic nationalists (I wasn't even specifically speaking about those on this site but more broadly--they are all over reddit, stormfront and other anthrophora) who use this type of information as validation. Nationalist movements usually employ romanticized, hyper-masculine, heroic, mythological figures in recreating and emboldening their national image--Hitler personified this better than most. That's the truth. That's a phenomena that actually happens. And I find the lengths that some will go to in order to "raise themselves up" to be desperate. Does making a truthful statement amount to an insult? Nowhere did I actively insult slavs as a people or culture. If anything, I'm very critical of nationalism.

 

[LeBrok]

Wanderlust: Cue the desperate, masculinity craving, slavic nationalists using this to further "romanticize" and "valorize" their past and affirm to themselves that they actually mattered in the larger world.

One more ethnic insult from you, or insult of any kind, and you're going to get an infraction. There will be no more warnings. Cut it out. We don't allow that kind of thing here.

I know it seems harsh on the surface, but I think he refers to Slavic Nationalists only, and not implicating all the Slavs. When I've read it I pictured Rethel and alike. The first post depicting Jeff Bridges, as an example of Slavic Viking, is nothing more but romantic wishful thinking of Tomenable. Nothing of historic and real value here but psychological need (of whatever) by Tomenable.
In short, Wanderlust poured a cold bucket of water on romantic Tomenable's head. In a bit brutal manner, I must say, but maybe this is what it takes to wake people up from a dream?

 

[LeBrok]

? I made no such "ethnic insult." As Dinard cosigned, there are pro-Nordic slavic nationalists (I wasn't even specifically speaking about those on this site but more broadly--they are all over reddit, stormfront and other anthrophora) who use this type of information as validation. Nationalist movements usually employ romanticized, hyper-masculine, heroic, mythological figures in recreating and emboldening their national image--Hitler personified this better than most. That's the truth. That's a phenomena that actually happens. And I find the lengths that some will go to in order to "raise themselves up" to be desperate. Does making a truthful statement amount to an insult? Nowhere did I actively insult slavs as a people or culture. If anything, I'm very critical of nationalism.

Every time I see an avatar with a knight in medieval armor I know what to expect. At least in Tomenable's avatar there is no weapon showing. What does that mean though? lol
Should we open a thread "Psychology behind Avatars"? It might have a great entertaining value at least.

 

[LeBrok]

I know it seems harsh on the surface, but I think he refers to Slavic Nationalists only, and not implicating all the Slavs. When I've read it I pictured Rethel and alike. The first post depicting Jeff Bridges, as an example of Slavic Viking, is nothing more but romantic wishful thinking of Tomenable. Nothing of historic and real value here but psychological need (of whatever) by Tomenable.
In short, Wanderlust poured a cold bucket of water on romantic Tomenable's head. In a bit brutal manner, I must say, but maybe this is what it takes to wake people up from a dream?

For what it is worth, I'm a Slav and I wasn't offended.

 

[LeBrok]

You have some legitimate criticism of Slavic nationalism- but you invalidate yourself with your attacks on imaginary straw men. I've never seen any pan-Slavists getting emotional or personal on Eupedia. Perhaps there have been instances but I've yet to encounter any.

Rethel is one of recent examples, and there were quite few in the past. Together with Greeks, Albanians, Spaniards and even a Hungarian.

Personally I can't stand Slavic Nordicism. Russians and even Ukrainians and Belarusians who brag about their "Viking heritage" and the "Rus" infuriate me. The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav". The fact that they were blond-haired and blue-eyed and promoted as the master race by the Nazis (our enemies) should say something. All of these morons are an embarrassment and their God, Hitler, would have put them in concentration camps. But no, let's blame the big Jewish conspiracy shall we?

Well said.

 

[Wanderlust]

You have some legitimate criticism of Slavic nationalism- but you invalidate yourself with your attacks on imaginary straw men. I've never seen any pan-Slavists getting emotional or personal on Eupedia. Perhaps there have been instances but I've yet to encounter any.

Personally I can't stand Slavic Nordicism. Russians and even Ukrainians and Belarusians who brag about their "Viking heritage" and the "Rus" infuriate me. The Vikings murdered and raped their ancestors and stole their land. They sold so many Slavs from all different tribes into captivity that the very word "slave" comes from "Slav". The fact that they were blond-haired and blue-eyed and promoted as the master race by the Nazis (our enemies) should say something. All of these morons are an embarrassment and their God, Hitler, would have put them in concentration camps. But no, let's blame the big Jewish conspiracy shall we?

1.) You misuse the term "strawmen." I abhor strawman arguments--and so, you're definitely mistaken. I made a tangential but off the cuff remark that was not in response to a real or imagined argument.

2.) I've lurked around here for years and some of the slavic members, particularly from the Balkans and approximate areas, seem to have their own unending, internal warfare going on. And they've become quite "emotional and personal" about it, to the point of being banned.

3.) And I agree about Slavic Nordicism and Nordicism of any kind. It's all based on arbitrary nonsense--hair and eye color? Seriously? And worst of all to me, they celebrate the most savage, brutal and barbaric aspects of Nordic peoples. Personally, If I had a to choose an "admirable" ethnic model, I'd go with the Greeks or the Italians. Not only did they have masterful warriors like the Spartans and the Roman legions but they were also world class thinkers and philosophers. But, as is the case with many a nationalist movement, might is held in higher esteem than brains. And as far as the South Slavs are concerned, you have the Order of the Dragon and Vlad Dracula--I mean, c'mon. As far as "folk symbols" go, it gets no cooler than that! Nordicism is unnecessary.

 

[Dinarid]

1.) You misuse the term "strawmen." I abhor strawman arguments--and so, you're definitely mistaken. I made a tangential but off the cuff remark that was not in response to a real or imagined argument.

2.) I've lurked around here for years and some of the slavic members, particularly from the Balkans and approximate areas, seem to have their own unending, internal warfare going on. And they've become quite "emotional and personal" about it, to the point of being banned.

3.) And I agree about Slavic Nordicism and Nordicism of any kind. It's all based on arbitrary nonsense--hair and eye color? Seriously? And worst of all to me, they celebrate the most savage, brutal and barbaric aspects of Nordic peoples. Personally, If I had a to choose an "admirable" ethnic model, I'd go with the Greeks or the Italians. Not only did they have masterful warriors like the Spartans and the Roman legions but they were also world class thinkers and philosophers. But, as is the case with many a nationalist movement, might is held in higher esteem than brains. And as far as the South Slavs are concerned, you have the Order of the Dragon and Vlad Dracula--I mean, c'mon. As far as "folk symbols" go, it gets no cooler than that! Nordicism is unnecessary.

As I stated earlier I haven't seen any radical and emotional Slavic nationalists assailing people. If you have, I apologize.

As far as your response to my point, I can't thank you enough. These morons are so brainwashed into believing in a big Jewish conspiracy and think that His Holiness Vladimir Putin will come save them. Literally. I'm not even exaggerating. I've actually seen Serbs and Poles commenting on YouTube videos comparing him to God. These Poles (not all of them) must have a very short memory. But there's also a supposedly anti-Hitler version of National Socialism gaining ground in far-right Pan-Slavic circles. They claim that they hate everything Nazi due to the genocide of our people by them, but they blame Jews for all their problems (including collaboration with the Nazis against the Slavic nation- yes, I'm serious) and, of greater relevance to this thread, espouse an particularly irritating Slavic variant of Nordicism. So basically they're just neo-Nazis who don't want to call themselves that. A true Slavic nationalist would be quite hostile to Nordicism, which was promoted by the Germans when they sought to exterminate us.

EDIT:
To add to this point I believe that these pathetic Slavic Nordicists on Stormfront and the like are doing this not just because of Germanic beauty standards and the glorification of the Nordic race, but also to appease their Western European and European-American fellow White nationalists. Quite hypocritical since they accuse people of sucking up to the Jews and being a "good goy" (i.e. YouTube comments). To me any Russian or Ukrainian or Belarusian who brags about their Viking heritage or praises the Wehrmacht, any Croatian Ustaša supporter, any Czech member of that new neo-Nazi party, or any Slovak who praises that dictator whose name escapes me at the moment, any Bosniak who brags about the Handžar Division, and any Serb who praises the Germans in WWII (yes, such idiots exist) has forfeited his or her right to be called a Slav. Tens of millions of our people died at the hands of totalitarianism and this is a sickening insult to their memory.

 

[Wanderlust]

I know it seems harsh on the surface, but I think he refers to Slavic Nationalists only, and not implicating all the Slavs. When I've read it I pictured Rethel and alike. The first post depicting Jeff Bridges, as an example of Slavic Viking, is nothing more but romantic wishful thinking of Tomenable. Nothing of historic and real value here but psychological need (of whatever) by Tomenable.
In short, Wanderlust poured a cold bucket of water on romantic Tomenable's head. In a bit brutal manner, I must say, but maybe this is what it takes to wake people up from a dream?

Thank you LeBrok--you perfectly encapsulate my thinking. First of all, you are right--I was not targeting "all slavs." Secondly, autosomally, I have a little north slavic ancestry myself and am far from a self-loather--You, Tomenable and I are distantly removed cousins. :grin: Thirdly, I spend way too much time in Eastern Europe with wonderful slavic people of all nationalities to ever see them or treat them as some monolithic entity.

It's just that threads like this are so transparent. And then to mix it with false information? It's quite irritating. Furthermore, I'm a firm believer in kinesthetic learning. Some people don't respond to reasons, facts and entreaties for compassion. But they respond to their own feelings. And when their (usually hyper-sensitive, fragile) feelings and pride are stung, they get the message far quicker. Having said that, I don't go out of my way to be mean. But the cold hard facts themselves are "mean," which is why I don't understand the overall lack of humility some of these people have in their views towards others. Why should any group think they're better than others? What people on earth have not suffered indignities? What people have not been humbled or brought low? Life has been mean to all of us, and still is. And yet some of us like to ignore it or have forgotten it. I think the occasional reminder is necessary.

Every time I see an avatar with a knight in medieval armor I know what to expect. At least in Tomenable's avatar there is no weapon showing. What does that mean though? lol
Should we open a thread "Psychology behind Avatars"? It might have a great entertaining value at least.

LOL You should also be concerned when you see Nordic runes! But mine is a symbol for "peace"; I specifically chose to use a rune, knowing that nowadays many Nordicist/Pan Germanic racists have co-opted these symbols. I'm a lover of irony and juxtapositioning!

For what it is worth, I'm a Slav and I wasn't offended.

Thanks cousin, because I sincerely meant no ill will to you or the rest of our strong, slavic Brethren! But some of the nationalists are indeed, problematic....

 

[Wanderlust]

As I stated earlier I haven't seen any radical and emotional Slavic nationalists assailing people. If you have, I apologize.

As far as your response to my point, I can't thank you enough. These morons are so brainwashed into believing in a big Jewish conspiracy and think that His Holiness Vladimir Putin will come save them. Literally. I'm not even exaggerating. I've actually seen Serbs and Poles commenting on YouTube videos comparing him to God. These Poles (not all of them) must have a very short memory. But there's also a supposedly anti-Hitler version of National Socialism gaining ground in far-right Pan-Slavic circles. They claim that they hate everything Nazi due to the genocide of our people by them, but they blame Jews for all their problems (including collaboration with the Nazis against the Slavic nation- yes, I'm serious) and, of greater relevance to this thread, espouse an particularly irritating Slavic variant of Nordicism. So basically they're just neo-Nazis who don't want to call themselves that. A true Slavic nationalist would be quite hostile to Nordicism, which was promoted by the Germans when they sought to exterminate us.

EDIT:
To add to this point I believe that these pathetic Slavic Nordicists on Stormfront and the like are doing this not just because of Germanic beauty standards and the glorification of the Nordic race, but also to appease their Western European and European-American fellow White nationalists. Quite hypocritical since they accuse people of sucking up to the Jews and being a "good goy" (i.e. YouTube comments). To me any Russian or Ukrainian or Belarusian who brags about their Viking heritage or praises the Wehrmacht, any Croatian Ustaša supporter, any Czech member of that new neo-Nazi party, or any Slovak who praises that dictator whose name escapes me at the moment, any Bosniak who brags about the Handžar Division, and any Serb who praises the Germans in WWII (yes, such idiots exist) has forfeited his or her right to be called a Slav. Tens of millions of our people died at the hands of totalitarianism and this is a sickening insult to their memory.

100% agreed with everything you wrote here. To me, if you're going to be a nationalist, celebrate your own people, history and culture. Celebrate your own successes and achievements. It is beyond ridiculous to grow one's ethnic, "national" esteem through celebration of different nationalities and their leaders and movements. And it's even MORE ludicrous to celebrate the ideologies of nations and peoples that had a direct hand in your disenfranchisement and destruction. What kind of self-loathing, brainwashed lunacy is that? Europe is incredibly diverse and every people has their own story that is worth being told. Yes, a lot of our histories and cultures are intertwined, but we still have our own unique folk heroes and symbols, languages, dialects and ways of looking at the world. If a nationalist has to look to outside of his group and to others to gain esteem and inspiration, then something is wrong.

 

[LeBrok]

Thank you LeBrok--you perfectly encapsulate my thinking. First of all, you are right--I was not targeting "all slavs." Secondly, autosomally, I have a little north slavic ancestry myself and am far from a self-loather--You, Tomenable and I are distantly removed cousins. :grin: Thirdly, I spend way too much time in Eastern Europe with wonderful slavic people of all nationalities to ever see them or treat as some monolithic entity.

I have 4% of Scandinavian and 4% of Balkan, the rest 92% says East European. How boring and ironic for a Citizen of the World, lol.

 

[Wanderlust]

I have 4% of Scandinavian and 4% of Balkan, the rest 92% says East European. How boring and ironic for a Citizen of the World, lol.

Lol Funny. I'm almost the reverse: 87% Scandinavian, 5% British, 4% Eastern European, 3% Baltic and 1% Italian. And truth be told, I hold on to that 1% Italian for dear life! lol

 

[Dinarid]

To be fair though, I don't know if this is what Tomenable meant to imply. I think he was just making an innocent post about Slavs in the ranks of the Vikings- however, the point about Slavic Nordicism needed to be raised and I'm glad it was.

 

[Wanderlust]

To be fair though, I don't know if this is what Tomenable meant to imply. I think he was just making an innocent post about Slavs in the ranks of the Vikings- however, the point about Slavic Nordicism needed to be raised and I'm glad it was.

Part of it is ignorance, part of it is subconscious and part of it is an explicit agenda--my private correspondence with him confirms this to me. In my opinion, he is bright but young and misguided.

Regardless, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, his OP had some problematic elements and I wanted to elucidate some of the issues.

But YES, historically, there were non-Scandinavian Vikings from what is now Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Friesland, Germany, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and so on:

"Viking Ethnicities: A Historiographic Overview"

http://www.academia.edu/1499804/Viking_Ethnicities_A_historiographic_overview

 

[Tomenable]

About Harald Bluetooth's army:

"(...) The famous Danish chronicler Saxo, in his ‘Danish History’ gives an account of the reign of Harald Bluetooth (...) He also reports that the king, towards the end of his rule and in a period contemporary with the Trelleborg fortresses, based his power on an army composed of ‘Danes and Slavs’. According to a twelfth-century chronicler, the so-called ‘law of the Kings’, retainers became necessary because of the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the royal retinue at the beginning of the eleventh century (for a more detailed review of the sources compare M. Andersen 1982; Damgaard-Sørensen 1991; Dobat 2010). (...)"

Source:

"Who was in Harold Bluetooth’s army?: Strontium isotope investigation of the cemetery at the Viking Age fortress at Trelleborg..."

Link: http://pure.au.dk/portal/en/publica...my(be96dda8-646b-4359-bffd-9e970fa66716).html

Harald Bluetooth's wife was also Slavic - Tofa, daughter of Prince Mstivoy of the Obodrites:

http://history.org.ua/JournALL/ruthenica/ruthenica_2011_suppl4/10.pdf

"(...) The wife of their paternal grandfather, Haraldr Gormsson (Bluetooth), was a Slav called Tofa. She was a daughter of Mstivoy, apparently the princely ruler of the Slavic Obodrites. It is not entirely clear whether Tofa was their grandmother, i.e., whether she had been the mother of Svein Haraldsson (Forkbeard) (...)"

Svein Forkbeard later also married a Slavic woman - one of daughters of Mieszko I of Poland.

That daughter was the mother of Canute the Great.

Assuming that Tofa was Canute's grandmother - then Canute was 75% Slavic (autosomally).

Check also:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32267-Athanasiadis-et-al-2016-Genetic-History-of-Denmark

 

[Tomenable]

Wanderlust,

my private correspondence with him confirms this to me

Good that you reminded me about this.

 

[Tomenable]

Dinarid,

Considering that Rurik's Y-DNA was N1c, it looks like someone was raped by Siberians:

Migrations of haplogroups N (red arrows + blue arrows) and N1c (black arrows):