Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )

Tomenable said:
Samples from Nerquin Getashen = Trialeti culture or Sevan-Uzerlik culture.
Click to expand...

RISE413 416 and 423 were south of Lake Sevan in Armenia, which is not Trialeti region

but there were similarities

Trialeti-Vanadzor painted monochrome and polychrome pottery is very similar to that in the other areas of the Near East. In particular, similar ceramics is known as the Urmia ware (named after Lake Urmia in Iran). Also, similar pottery was produced by the Uzarlik culture, and the Karmirberd-Sevan culture.
 
bicicleur said:
the Armenian Kura-Araxes R1b was not Z2016, the LBA Armenian was R1b-Z2103
Click to expand...

OK, now after finetuning the results would be: Kura-Araxes R1b1a... who would be the "father" of MBA Armenian (Hurrian) R1b1a2, and his clade appears in a Yamnayan (RISE546) and a Poltavkian (SVP11); then a LBA Armenian was R1b1a2a2 (the grandson), but his subclade is the most common Yamnayan clade... To that it is possible to add that Armenians and Lurs have R1b related clades so that the ancient DNA is not coming from "wandering herders" but genetists are finding real people, and even a happy local Hg family.

Then we need to realize that a bunch of Yamnayans peopled all Western Europe with the Western R1b not found in Yamna, half Asia with the Asian R1a not found in Yamna, and Transcaucasia precisely with the known R1b clades they had... but by coincidence we know that Yamnayans received a Transcaucasian migration before any kurgan or horse expansion... so my astonishment is much or less like that of the Spanish President....

rajoy.png
 

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Some linguists noticed similarities between Hurro-Urartian and Basque languages.

This suggested language family is sometimes called "Vasco-Caucasian":

http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.com/2015/06/basque-olha-forge-foundry.html

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28131

The other argument is provided by the Basque language. Now, it is
the single non Indo-European language not only of Spain, but of
Western Europe. When the Pozo Moro tower was built, more than
2500 years ago, it might have been in the neighbourhood of the
Iberian and the Contestanian languages, exchanging vocabulary,
morphological and syntactic patterns with them. The presence of
Hurrian people in Contestania would perfectly explain why modern
Basque still uses words with an unmistakable Assyrian, Egyptian,
Hebrew or Sumerian origin, otherwise not justified at all.
Furthermore, in addition to these loan words, well attested by
the linguists studying the Basque language, it seems that there
could be genuine Hurrian loans in the Basque language.=20

These Hurrian-Basque words, which are scarce but highly
significant, tend to concentrate in some linguistic areas
(religion, social organization) and to follow regular phonetic
patterns when transferred. Good examples may be the words for
"God" (Hurrian eni > Basque jainkoa, but also jin, in) or "Lord"
(Hurrian ewri > Basque Jaun, Jaur- in compounds), which seem to
change initial e- to ya- regularly . There are even loan words
which, until now, were thought to be exclusive of the Hurrian-
Mittanian linguistic framework. This is the case of number 1,
aika, still used by modern Basque when forming the name of number
11, which is "amaika" and not "ama-bat" as expectable. A more
exhaustive study of these possible loans, which is far beyond the
scope of this message, is a task to be carried out by the Basque
scholars.

All these facts (with the possible exception of the loans to the
Basque language), are known and almost unanimously admitted by
the scholars and researchers (a document with full references to
the relevant books and articles is available for anyone
interested). What I am now proposing is "whether they may be
jointly interpreted in the sense of supporting the idea of the
presence of Hurrians in south-eastern Spain from the eighth
century BC onwards".
Click to expand...

Now that we know that Hurro-Urartians could be R1b, we also have a genetic link.
 
No Hurrian archaeological find is known for Spain, a logical thing taking into account their old geographic area and that by such dates they were time ago passed. For the R1b aspect even it could not explain matters in all Europe, the case is yet between mesolithics, neolithic herders or indoeuropeans. Allways is better to rely on works peer reviewed than in forumers or bloggers...

Precisely I remember now a Dutch work about the relation of Hurrian/Urartian with Chechen and also Etruscan quite suggestive, also in an historical sense by the Lemnian case and the supposed Anatolian origin of Etruscans.
 
berun said:
OK, now after finetuning the results would be: Kura-Araxes R1b1a... who would be the "father" of MBA Armenian (Hurrian) R1b1a2, and his clade appears in a Yamnayan (RISE546) and a Poltavkian (SVP11); then a LBA Armenian was R1b1a2a2 (the grandson), but his subclade is the most common Yamnayan clade... To that it is possible to add that Armenians and Lurs have R1b related clades so that the ancient DNA is not coming from "wandering herders" but genetists are finding real people, and even a happy local Hg family.

Then we need to realize that a bunch of Yamnayans peopled all Western Europe with the Western R1b not found in Yamna, half Asia with the Asian R1a not found in Yamna, and Transcaucasia precisely with the known R1b clades they had... but by coincidence we know that Yamnayans received a Transcaucasian migration before any kurgan or horse expansion... so my astonishment is much or less like that of the Spanish President....

rajoy.png
Click to expand...

do you know the connection between Kura-Araxes and Hurrians?
do you know many different people were gathered in Uratru ruled by Hurrians?
do you think the whole Pontic steppe had the same DNA as the Samarra and Kalmykia?

I put forward 2 theories
but you seem to know a lot more than me
 
In Ancient Turkey, page 184-186: "During the Early Bronze Age II A (2700-2600 BC), the Syro-Mesopotamian influence at Norsuntepe (Levels 24-21) [in the Tigris bend] started to wane, with a noticeable rise in Trans-Caucasian black burnished (Kura-Araxes) cermics..." ... "Wattle and daub houses are the norm from Level 20 through 14 at Norsuntepe (Early Bronze Age IIB) [2600-2500 BC]. They have typical features - rounded corners, benches along the walls, and eye-catching, horned hearth in the centre- well known from inner Georgia, in Trans-Caucasus." ... "The Upper Euphrates is also the home of a distinctive painted pottery tradition restricted to sites in the Keban (Elazig region) and Karakaya (Malatya region). Althought it is associated with hand-made Kura-Araxes pottery, and indeed probably derives from that tradition..." Such pottery is related to that found in the Khabur valley. The first documented Hurrian passages are from 2300 BC and continue till 1300 BC pointing to such regions.

Hurrians and Urarteans were not historicaly in contact... but taking the linguistic area of Hurrian, Urartean and NE Caucasian (with Caucasian Albanian), it fits quite well the area of the Kura-Araxes culture; and why I would deny that the first attested languages in such areas were not the ancestral ones? If you know other possible languages spoken there you may tell us.

Can you provide the other steppe Y-DNA or I must imagine which other Y-DNA they had? I must suppose that science might work imagining possibilities instead to work with facts?

Frankly I would like to discuss from know facts instead than from possible facts, otherwise I come back to the Atlantis plot...
;)
 
berun said:
In Ancient Turkey, page 184-186: "During the Early Bronze Age II A (2700-2600 BC), the Syro-Mesopotamian influence at Norsuntepe (Levels 24-21) [in the Tigris bend] started to wane, with a noticeable rise in Trans-Caucasian black burnished (Kura-Araxes) cermics..." ... "Wattle and daub houses are the norm from Level 20 through 14 at Norsuntepe (Early Bronze Age IIB) [2600-2500 BC]. They have typical features - rounded corners, benches along the walls, and eye-catching, horned hearth in the centre- well known from inner Georgia, in Trans-Caucasus." ... "The Upper Euphrates is also the home of a distinctive painted pottery tradition restricted to sites in the Keban (Elazig region) and Karakaya (Malatya region). Althought it is associated with hand-made Kura-Araxes pottery, and indeed probably derives from that tradition..." Such pottery is related to that found in the Khabur valley. The first documented Hurrian passages are from 2300 BC and continue till 1300 BC pointing to such regions.

Hurrians and Urarteans were not historicaly in contact... but taking the linguistic area of Hurrian, Urartean and NE Caucasian (with Caucasian Albanian), it fits quite well the area of the Kura-Araxes culture; and why I would deny that the first attested languages in such areas were not the ancestral ones? If you know other possible languages spoken there you may tell us.

Can you provide the other steppe Y-DNA or I must imagine which other Y-DNA they had? I must suppose that science might work imagining possibilities instead to work with facts?

Frankly I would like to discuss from know facts instead than from possible facts, otherwise I come back to the Atlantis plot...
;)
Click to expand...

in your post n°47 you make things so complicated while it is not

let me put it like this :
the first IE people were R1b-M269 and R1b-M473 ca 6.5 ka on the Pontic steppe, 400 years before the TMRCA of R1b-Z2103
R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they adopted IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

David Anthony wrote this scenario in 2007. All details are confirmed by anciant DNA afterwards.
There is no anciant DNA found yet which counterdicts this scenario.

Which of course does not mean it is the only possible scenario.
I think it is still the most parsimonious explanation.
 
Now something slightly different. Hasn't any of you noticed that NON of the Iron Age and the one Safavid era Iranic samples turned out as significantly more EHG shifted? Contrary the Iron Age samples even turned out with less Steppe like shift than modern once(Kurds, Persians etc).

Which brings us back to the question (conclusion) could the guys who brought Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian have been realy significantly EHG shifted? Obviously not. And I am being arguing for this over years. We can't take Srubnaya or Sintashta as refference since obviously these guys didn't came from there. Either the Kura Araxes or Yaz culture is the source.
 
Alan said:
Now something slightly different. Hasn't any of you noticed that NON of the Iron Age and the one Safavid era Iranic samples turned out as significantly more EHG shifted? Contrary the Iron Age samples even turned out with less Steppe like shift than modern once(Kurds, Persians etc).

Which brings us back to the question (conclusion) could the guys who brought Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian have been realy significantly EHG shifted? Obviously not. And I am being arguing for this over years. We can't take Srubnaya or Sintashta as refference since obviously these guys didn't came from there. Either the Kura Araxes or Yaz culture is the source.
Click to expand...

do we have Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian iron age samples?
and I don't think Mitanni were IE, only their horse trainers were
Median/Parthian/Persian came from Central Asia, not from across the Caucasus
 
bicicleur said:
do we have Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian iron age samples?
and I don't think Mitanni were IE, only their horse trainers were
Median/Parthian/Persian came from Central Asia, not from across the Caucasus
Click to expand...

We have Safavid era (post Sassanid) and Iron Age (little pre Mede and Persian era) samples. Both look as much or less Steppe shifted. I doubt that what was inbetween could have been so much Steppe shifted than.

We have absolutely no idea what Mitanni were, therefore people are widely speculating. I am going by historic refferences and according to those the Mitanni were pretty much absorbed or predecessors of the Medes. Only their Horse trainers being Indo European makes absolutely no sense. You wouldn't pay tribute to the Gods of some Horse trainers if an substantial part of the population (at least 25%) wasn't Indo_Iranian either. Just because a certain language is spoken among Mitanni, doesn't mean there wasn't a substantial population of people with a different language.
 
bicicleur said:
in your post n°47 you make things so complicated while it is not

let me put it like this :
the first IE people were R1b-M269 and R1b-M473 ca 6.5 ka on the Pontic steppe, 400 years before the TMRCA of R1b-Z2103
R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they adopted IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

David Anthony wrote this scenario in 2007. All details are confirmed by anciant DNA afterwards.
There is no anciant DNA found yet which counterdicts this scenario.

Which of course does not mean it is the only possible scenario.
I think it is still the most parsimonious explanation.
Click to expand...

No, the most parsimonious scenario is like that:

R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they "adopted" IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

If you need desperately the Yamnayans is to try to explain the Western R1b, but ailas their R1b clades were Trans-Caucasian, and all we know now that Yamnayans had a 50% Trans-Caucasian DNA: so Yamnayans were a dead end overan by IE R1a, that is the parsimonous explanation now.
 
Alan said:
We have Safavid era (post Sassanid) and Iron Age (little pre Mede and Persian era) samples. Both look as much or less Steppe shifted. I doubt that what was inbetween could have been so much Steppe shifted than.

We have absolutely no idea what Mitanni were, therefore people are widely speculating. I am going by historic refferences and according to those the Mitanni were pretty much absorbed or predecessors of the Medes. Only their Horse trainers being Indo European makes absolutely no sense. You wouldn't pay tribute to the Gods of some Horse trainers if an substantial part of the population (at least 25%) wasn't Indo_Iranian either. Just because a certain language is spoken among Mitanni, doesn't mean there wasn't a substantial population of people with a different language.
Click to expand...

Mitanni were Hurrite
but there is the text of Kikkuli the horse trainer who introduced Indic loanwords into Mitanni language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

Mitanni had nothing to do with Medes origin
 
berun said:
No, the most parsimonious scenario is like that:

R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they "adopted" IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

If you need desperately the Yamnayans is to try to explain the Western R1b, but ailas their R1b clades were Trans-Caucasian, and all we know now that Yamnayans had a 50% Trans-Caucasian DNA: so Yamnayans were a dead end overan by IE R1a, that is the parsimonous explanation now.
Click to expand...

Bell BeakerGermanyKromsdorf [grave 5]M2600-2500 BCR1b1b2M343, M269, (x S21/U106)I1a1Lee 2012; Oliveiri 2013.


Bell BeakerGermanyQuedlinburg [I0805/QLB 26]M2467-2142 BCR1b1a2PF6430, PF6482, PF6500, PF6509H1Mathieson 2015I0805 Germany Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a-L151 calls

Bronze AgeGermanyUntermeitingen [RISE471]M
R1b1a2a1aP310J1c1bAllentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015
Battle Axe/ Nordic LNSwedenLilla Beddinge 56 [RISE98]M2275-2032 BCR1b1a2a1a1M405/S21/U106K1b1a1Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015

I can give you many more examples of R1b-M269 in Europe.
Please explain.

The archeological evidence of the whole scenario, including expansions from the steppe into Europe prior to Sintashta expansion is explained in this book:

https://books.google.be/books/about...l?id=nLIufwC4szwC&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

I can recommend you this book.
 
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