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Thread: Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )

    Tepe Hasanlu - The Early Iron Age (3,250-2800 YBP)

    "F38 belongs to sub-haplogroup R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103. This lineage can be included in the L23(xM412) clade, which is characterized by frequencies higher than 10% in the Caucasus, Turkey, Southeastern Europe, and Circum-Uralic populations, and is mostly found at very low frequencies in Western Europe. This pattern sharply contrasts with the distribution of M412-derived Y-chromosomes, which are very common in Western Europe but rare in the 13East.

    The Iron Age sample (F38) from Zagros is part of the N1a3a haplogroup of the N1a clade,which is observed at low frequency among modern Iranians. N1a is found mostly in the Arabian Peninsula and Northeast Africa, but also in Central Asia and Southern Siberia at lowerfrequencies. However, a few ancient samples such as the NE7 individual from the Neolithic period in Hungary also represent an mtDNA HG derived from N1a. The N1a subclade appears in Europe together with the establishment of early farmer communities and has arelatively high frequency in early European farmers and also in Neolithic NW-Anatolia"

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...cience.aaf7943
    Last edited by Alpenjager; 16-07-16 at 04:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Tepe Hasanlu - The Early Iron Age (3,250-2800 YBP)

    "F38 belongs to sub-haplogroup R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103. This lineage can be included in the L23(xM412) clade, which is characterized by frequencies higher than 10% in the Caucasus, Turkey, Southeastern Europe, and Circum-Uralic populations, and is mostly found at very low frequencies in Western Europe. This pattern sharply contrasts with the distribution of M412-derived Y-chromosomes, which are very common in Western Europe but rare in the 13East.

    The Iron Age sample (F38) from Zagros is part of the N1a3a haplogroup of the N1a clade,which is observed at low frequency among modern Iranians. N1a is found mostly in the Arabian Peninsula and Northeast Africa, but also in Central Asia and Southern Siberia at lowerfrequencies. However, a few ancient samples such as the NE7 individual from the Neolithic period in Hungary also represent an mtDNA HG derived from N1a. The N1a subclade appears in Europe together with the establishment of early farmer communities and has arelatively high frequency in early European farmers and also in Neolithic NW-Anatolia"
    thanks

    The only other Ydna they found belonged to G2b group
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    ..........source?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Early Neolithic genomes from the eastern Fertile Crescent


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA


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    I glanced at the paper only. Do they confirm my scepticism of Iranian Neolithic taking part in EEF?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA

    With all of the usual caveats about PCAs and without having pored over the whole paper, these are some of my initial reactions:

    Sardinians are very close to the original European and northwest Anatolian farmers. How likely is it that Hellenthal and Busby et al (same group) are correct that they're the product of a very recent admixture with Egyptians? I think on this one Xue et al may be correct, and some of these programs just can't figure out southern European genetics.
    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...15)00949-5.pdf
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24531965
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...63099.full.pdf


    Mal'ta and the European foragers and the Iberian Neolithics are outside modern Eurasian genetic variation, but the European farmers and the CHG are not. The European foragers and the Iranian Neolithic are closer than Mal'ta, however. Speaking of Mal'ta, one might think it's just a function of age, but look at Ust'Ishim. He seems to cluster very comfortably with modern Indians. It may be that Mal'ta is not very representative of "ANE". I wonder what would have happened if Afontova Gora had been included.

    As before, the Hungarian Bronze Age clusters with southern Europeans. (For what it's worth, on the PUNT calculator that's the Bronze Age population to which I'm closest, and nobody is more southern European than I am.) A few of the Bronze Age samples cluster with the far northern Russians and the Mordovians ( Aren't they the ones with Siberian who couldn't be modeled by Lazaridis and Haak as fitting in the three ancient population model?)


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I glanced at the paper only. Do they confirm my scepticism of Iranian Neolithic taking part in EEF?
    Abstract:

    We sequenced Early Neolithic genomes from the Zagros region of Iran (eastern Fertile Crescent), where some of the earliest evidence for farming is found, and identify a previously uncharacterized population that is neither ancestral to the first European farmers nor has contributed significantly to the ancestry of modern Europeans. These people are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46-77,000 years ago and show affinities to modern day Pakistani and Afghan populations, but particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians. We conclude that multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations adopted farming in SW-Asia, that components of pre-Neolithic population structure were preserved as farming spread into neighboring regions, and that the Zagros region was the cradle of eastward expansion.

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    Ouch! Another R1b before the Indoeuropeans (Iranians) arrived in the area? where he was not expected yet? And precisely of the same clade than the Yamnayans? and precisely from the same geographic origin than the ancestors of the Yamnayans (Calcholithic Iranians / CHG)? What a great coincidence!... or it's a yellow alarm?

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    There is an Iron Age sample of R1b-Z2103 in this study, from a Mannean burial.

    Do we have his autosomal DNA to see if the guy was Steppe-admixed ???

    Manneans were Non-IE speakers (as were the Kura-Araxes people, among whom another R1b sample was found previously). If they were subjected to an ever increasing Iranian influence, then we would expect to find the Indo-Iranian marker R1a-Z93:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannaeans#Ethnicity

    Kura-Araxes were Hurro-Urartian speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura–A...guistic_makeup

    Here is my map of attested Non-IE languages of the Middle East, with Manneans in North-Western Iran:

    https://s30.postimg.org/pmjclmks1/Languages+of+ME.png



    Many linguists suggest that Hurrian, Urartian and Mannean languages were related (parts of the same family). This is why the map posted above shows all of them painted with the same colour. Kassite-speakers were likely also related:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-..._languages#Use

    We have R1b from Hurro-Urartian speaking Kura-Araxes, and another R1b from Mannean-speakers.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...rly-metallurgy

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    MANNAEA AND ADJACENT REGIONS:

    http://www.jstor.org/stable/4300620?...n_tab_contents

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mannea

    Linguistic analysis of the anthroponymy:



    Linguistic analysis of the toponymy:


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    This R1b-Z2103 sample is man F38, one of inhabitants of Hasanlu:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teppe_Hasanlu

    He lived in 971-832 BC. In ~800 BC, Hasanlu was destroyed by Urartu.

    ====================

    Hasanlu was a Mannean city:


    http://historum.com/general-history/...7?postcount=48

    Lake Matianus (Latin: Lacus Matianus) is an old name for Lake Urmia. It was the center of the Mannaean Kingdom, a potential Mannaean settlement represented by the ruin mound of Hasanlu was on the south side of Lake Matianus.

    Mannae was overrun by a people who were called Matiani or Matieni, an Iranic people variously identified as Scythian, Saka, Sarmatian, or Cimmerian.

    The Mannaeans (country name Mannea; Akkadian: Mannai, Biblical Minni) were an ancient people who lived in the territory of present-day Iran and Azerbaijan, around the 10th to 7th centuries BC.

    Beginning around 800 BC, the region became contested ground between Urartu, who built several forts on the territory of Mannea, and Assyria ... The Mannaean kingdom reached the pinnacle of its power during the reign of Iranzu (ca. 725-720 BC) ... In 716 BC, king Sargon II of Assyria moved against Mannea, where the ruler Aza, son of Iranzu, had been deposed by Ullusunu with the help of the Urartians. Sargon took Izirtu, and stationed troops in Parsua (Parsua was distinct from Parsumash located further southeast in what is today known as Fars province in Iran.). The Assyrians thereafter used the area to breed, train and trade horses.

    According to one Assyrian inscription, the Cimmerians (Gimirru) [biblical gnomes like creatures at Behistun] originally went forth from their homeland of Gamir or Uishdish on the shores of the Black Sea in "the midst of Mannai" around this time. The Cimmerians first appear in the annals in the year 714 BC, when they apparently helped the Assyrians to defeat Urartu.

    The Mannaeans are recorded as rebelling against Esarhaddon of Assyria in 676 BC, when they attempted to interrupt the horse trade between Assyria and its colony of Parsuash. The king Ahsheri, who ruled until the 650s BC, continued to enlarge the territory of Mannea, although paying tribute to Assyria. However, Mannea suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of the Assyrians around 660 BC, and subsequently an internal revolt broke out, continuing until Ahsheri's death. Also in the 7th century BC, Mannea was defeated by the advancing Scythians, who had already raided Urartu and been repelled by the Assyrians.

    Mitanni Mitanni "This kingdom was known as the Maryannu, Nahrin or Mitanni to the Egyptians, Hurri to the Hittites and Hanigalbat to the Assyrians. All three names were equivalent and interchangeable", asserted Michael C. Astour.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    F38 lived before the invasion of the Cimmerians and Scythians, who were R1a (Cimmerians are supposed to be the descendants of Srubnaya people)

    I see 2 possibilities for the origin of F38.

    - descendants of the Mushki who attacked the Assyrians ca 3 ka and probably came from Balkans or Carpathian basin
    Mushki would have been ancestral to Phrygians (Greek language) and the speakers of Armenian language

    - Yamna people R1b-Z2103 ousted by Sintashta warriors and crossing the Caucasus ca 4 ka


    we have another R1b-Z2103 in Armenia, same time period :

    Late Bronze Age Armenia Kapan [RISE397] M 1048-855 BC R1b R1b1a2a2 (Y4371/Z8128) + downstream +Z2106 > PH4902+ > Y:18249219(A/C)+ CTS9219- on R1b1a2 Project tree T1a2 Allentoft 2015; Y-DNA personal communication from author + additional info from Sergey Malyshev

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    But @bicicleur we have also Early Bronze Age R1b in Kura Araxes that predates any Indo EUropean movement into that region.

    Some bloggers might call all of these "confused Steppe man". I am thinking this is no coincidence. Hurro_Urartaen shows strong cultural similarities to Indo Europeans I have elloborated this quite a few times.

    Phrygians were not Greek speakers
    Also I am not aware of any Phrygian settlements that far East by 900 BC. However I could be wrong.

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    I think to find the final answer where these R samples come from we ultimately need to have samples from further east. Not only the very West of the Iranian Plateau but also Centra, Eastern parts of it, as well South_Central Asia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Ouch! Another R1b before the Indoeuropeans (Iranians) arrived in the area? where he was not expected yet? And precisely of the same clade than the Yamnayans? and precisely from the same geographic origin than the ancestors of the Yamnayans (Calcholithic Iranians / CHG)? What a great coincidence!... or it's a yellow alarm?
    I remember a discussion about 2 years ago here where smart people of Eupedia expected to find R1b all the way around Caspian Sea. You have to stick to the right crowd. ;)

    However, are we talking about Iron Age times? Way after IE expansion from Steppe.

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    Good for the expected geographical extension of such clade, but the nucleus was in the south...

    And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.

    Even the Yamnaya R1b clade were not going to nowhere. Once such culture was erased by R1a there was nothing left from them in other places, and as in Iran, it was overruned by R1a true Indoeuropeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Ouch! Another R1b before the Indoeuropeans (Iranians) arrived in the area? where he was not expected yet? And precisely of the same clade than the Yamnayans? and precisely from the same geographic origin than the ancestors of the Yamnayans (Calcholithic Iranians / CHG)? What a great coincidence!... or it's a yellow alarm?
    Indeed it's even the same culturual sphere. post Kura_Araxes. Interestingly this Iron Age sample from Mannae has significantly less "Steppe" like admixture than even modern Iranians. While if that was rather "newly" arrived R1b in this region you would expect a higher Steppe signature. Since over time the Steppe should actually have went slightly down.

    The authors say the sample differs in that way, that it has more Anatolian/Levant_Neo like ancestry, the same way how the Iran_CHL samples already. So I doubt the R1b is connected to the Levant_Neo though.

    As I said since we found already P1(R2, R1a, R1b) in Iran_Neo. R1a, R1b itself can't be far and it's just a matter of time we find it with more sampling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I remember a discussion about 2 years ago here where smart people of Eupedia expected to find R1b all the way around Caspian Sea. You have to stick to the right crowd. ;)

    However, are we talking about Iron Age times? Way after IE expansion from Steppe.
    Yep indeed, you will most likerly find more of R1b Northwet/West/Southwest of the Caspian and more R1a around Northeast/East/Southeast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Good for the expected geographical extension of such clade, but the nucleus was in the south...

    And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.

    Even the Yamnaya R1b clade were not going to nowhere. Once such culture was erased by R1a there was nothing left from them in other places, and as in Iran, it was overruned by R1a true Indoeuropeans.
    Why don't you write a history book and population genetics, and teach people how it went around. The rest of us will gladly follow the unfolding facts of latest research to understand the past.

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    tbh I doubt Indo_Iranians had no R1b though. However I did point out the similarities between those Hurro_Urartaens and Indo_europeans. From the Swastika to Teshub the Thunder god which seems to be the origin of the Celtic Taranis, Germanic Thor, Hittite Tarru and Greek Zeus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA

    Are there some symbols missing from the Legend? Symbols from ovals don't have explanation in the Legend of Ancient Samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Abstract:

    We sequenced Early Neolithic genomes from the Zagros region of Iran (eastern Fertile Crescent), where some of the earliest evidence for farming is found, and identify a previously uncharacterized population that is neither ancestral to the first European farmers nor has contributed significantly to the ancestry of modern Europeans. These people are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46-77,000 years ago and show affinities to modern day Pakistani and Afghan populations, but particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians. We conclude that multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations adopted farming in SW-Asia, that components of pre-Neolithic population structure were preserved as farming spread into neighboring regions, and that the Zagros region was the cradle of eastward expansion.
    Am I smart or am I smart, lol. Nice vindication. This was the only thing I questioned in latest Lazaridis paper and I was right. It is really hard to question something in a paper written by scientists of such high caliber, not to make an ass of self, and at the end to be right.
    It points to a caution about blindly believing in modeling of ancestral population. This is more of sophisticated guessing than a sure thing. To give some credit to Lazaridis in this regard, they surely mentioned that this was of a very low probability. And it turned out that it was.

    So Anatolian Neolithic doesn't contain Iranian Neolithic, in genetic sense not cultural, at least in any substantial amounts. It was also confirmed by Lorente et al, and this paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.
    who is the Yamna R1b before steppe expansion?

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