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Thread: we might have political anomaly at Turkey.

  1. #26
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    double post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Both, but the AKP mostly because they use the grey wolves otherwise they have their own (Neo_Ottoman) agenda. However especially the military is infested by pro Grey wolves.
    When the Military went on the streets many were making the Grey wolve sign.
    The AKP is anti West, but they also show it. The Military is anti West but they are good in playing the double faced game. Remember how they went over to Cyprus infront of the eyes of NATO?

    well
    Cyprus case is a big story that starts from 1950'
    simply H Kissinger with up snd down jundas in Greece manage to revenge Greece and Makarios,
    but all start from 1950's and 'Instambul Pogrom'
    so I remind you someone that lower class Turks and farmers love in Turkey



    among Erdogan and Menteres I see many common,
    Grey wolfs were created at 1960's by Turces, but prexisted as idea, since many of them were at Instambul Pogrom
    and my infos say that support Erdogan.

    anyway, I said that democracy and elected goverments are always welcomed and legal,

    so the last days militarry effort could be the end of Grey wolfs?
    cause if some supported military and others Erdogan that means division
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Don't spend your time with hypothetical coalitions between countries that can offer only their geographical position. You need a key to understand a situation. Behind the conflicts, the wars, the different crisis and military putchs is the conflict between great powers. It is not a coincidence that a few days before the putch there was a mea culpa of Erdoğan about the Russian jet.


    Of course, the interest of every country is important in the game, but not decisive. Who decide in the end are the big guys.
    You theorized that Turkey will be pulled into Eurasia. My response was to observe and postulate about the relationship between America, Greece, Cyprus, Israel, Russia, and Turkey. These are facts. Israel does have an increasingly strong military alliance with Greece and Cyprus. Russia also does play a role for all of these countries. I see these hypothetical situations as quite useful- I don't quite understand your objection.

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    Turkish people have voted Erdogan in power (unless the votes were rigged which i dont think so) So why a coup? unless he decides that there will be no more elections and establish a dictatorship. Also in Egypt. Isn't this antidemocratic irrelevant to whether you agree with the policies or not? What I cannot understand is why people are happy to vote for these people in the first place? There must be many reasons for this, were people who live in different social structures will find it difficult to understand.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Turkish people have voted Erdogan in power (unless the votes were rigged which i dont think so) So why a coup? unless he decides that there will be no more elections and establish a dictatorship. Also in Egypt. Isn't this antidemocratic irrelevant to whether you agree with the policies or not? What I cannot understand is why people are happy to vote for these people in the first place? There must be many reasons for this, were people who live in different social structures will find it difficult to understand.
    It's not the first time when people choose democratically dictators or tyrants. This has to do with the low level of emancipation of this societies. Of course every country has it specifics. As a result of this situations there are this military putchs in order to protect the laicity or against the communism during the Cold War, etc.
    About the putch in Turkey, i don't like the conspiracy theories but at least this putch can be considered bad organized. Personally i think that Erdoğan was aware of the possibility of putch, because this was the logic result of politicaly game in Turkey. So, he organized this trap and his internal enemies fell in this trap.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Turkish people have voted Erdogan in power (unless the votes were rigged which i dont think so) So why a coup? unless he decides that there will be no more elections and establish a dictatorship. Also in Egypt. Isn't this antidemocratic irrelevant to whether you agree with the policies or not? What I cannot understand is why people are happy to vote for these people in the first place? There must be many reasons for this, were people who live in different social structures will find it difficult to understand.
    because Erdogan takes controll over the press and the media
    he limits free speech, punishing 'insults'
    he is dividing the country and doesn't respect any human rights
    he is replacing judges and military officers by men of his own environment
    it looks like his ultimate goal is to abolish democracy

    he is no better than Puttin

    and indeed a majority of Turks was stupid enough to vote on him
    I din't know how this can be resolved, I'm quite pessimistic
    I'm glad they are not in the EU
    shame on you, Frau Merkel to restart negociations

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    Negotiations may actually be a good thing. They come together with clauses and clauses demand for multiple reforms in civil rights, free speech, economy, etc, etc.
    Apparently Turkey under Erdogan did not close any of those or so, but is good to at least try to push them into right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laberia
    This has to do with the low level of emancipation of this societies.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicileur
    he limits free speech, punishing 'insults'
    he is dividing the country and doesn't respect any human rights
    he is replacing judges and military officers by men of his own environment
    it looks like his ultimate goal is to abolish democracy

    he is no better than Puttin


    The flaws of democracy. It surely does not work well in any kind of situation (although much better then right out dictate) One can maneuver around it to be perceived less of a control freak nature.


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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Negotiations may actually be a good thing. They come together with clauses and clauses demand for multiple reforms in civil rights, free speech, economy, etc, etc.
    Apparently Turkey under Erdogan did not close any of those or so, but is good to at least try to push them into right direction.
    I agree that Negotiations are a good thing, unless someone decides that its ok to give up some of the basic fundamental values just to accommodate a country for a particular reason or another. The few Turks I came across were very secular (not to mention very nice and friendly people) but mostly came from Istanbul (if it makes any difference). But Turkey is a large country and it seems its going to take a very long time before they would feel genuinely comfortable being part of the EU and also of course the other way round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If anyone was still in doubt, Turkey should never have been included in NATO. Perhaps ten years ago, before Erdogan, it looked as if Turkey was on its way to becoming a modern, progressive, prosperous country. It no longer looks like that.

    Erdogan is becoming a Hitler like dictator, in my opinion, with Muslim fundamentalism instead of white racism as his credo, and there were all those people on the streets cheering him on. Very disheartening.

    Not, of course, that I favor military coups in general, but the Turkish army has had a history of intervening to actually bring the country back to democracy instead of vice versa. I guess they left it too long; half the army had been replaced.

    This retreat into the past has infected Turkey as well, and I think a lot of the blame can be laid at the door of the Saudis and their funding of Islamic schools and other forms of fundamentalist propaganda.

    The solution? I have no idea.
    1- At the time when Turkey became a NATO member, it was the time of cold war, and surely Turkey at that time was much more secular and democratic than it's today. Last years it's shifting into a anti democratic regime. In my opinion if they don't change course, Turkey should be banned from NATO.

    2- The army in Turkey it's the guarantor of the constitution. It's their job to protect the democracy in Turkey. Seems they failed. There are rumors that it was done by Erdogan himself

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    1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    A long steady grind against this ideology. No easy solution, though. Go after these clerics in mosques, madrasas and internet. To start the fight, let's stop buying Saudi's oil, this should get their attention.
    There are signs that Erdogan may change side. His ideology fits better with Russia/ China alliance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the funny is that as president, he ban twitter and other internetic forms of communication,
    yesterday he used Skype to communicate with his citizens,

    anyway democracy is better, and as we see yesterday, many citizens defend their constitution,
    except if the whole case was theatre,

    but that makes Erdogan more powerfull, and I wonder about future,
    how more west or deep islamic Turkey will be,
    Democracy! !!!! What citizens! !!!! They were all a bunch of extremist called for help by the Imams. The Imams throughout turkey called the Ezan at their mosques. It was exclusively for Erdogan. Do you know what it means? It's the first calling the Exan for someone and he was Erdogan. Probably you know that the call of Ezan it's exclusive to God, and this is the first time called for a human being. They are celebrating the new sultan or caliph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Hypocrisy worthy of a dictator.

    Erdogan position was very strong to start with, same as Putin's position in Russia. They were elected by majority of citizens who dream about powerful Turkey, the old Ottoman Empire. Likewise, Russians about Russian Empire. "I will make Turkey great again!", "I will make Russia great again." I will make America great again, says Trump. A dictator in making.
    Wake up sheep,... I mean, people.
    Greater the state, smaller the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    It's kinda funny, how some people here, obviously with not much idea about Kemalism are being supportive for a military coup. Let me tell you something about the military and this glorified "Westernized" Kemalistic ideology. It is the very basis of the racist Turkish education system. It is the reason why Turkey intervented in Cyprus (to my fellow Greeks).

    If anyone thinks this military and Kemalism is going to change the country into the right direction they are being to optimistic. May I remind the very reason why the AKP has so much support in among the voters is the very inability of the former Kemalistic regime. Kemalism is not the solution but the very root of the evil in the Turkish society. AKP and the Kemalists don't take much from each other.
    No one it's saying that the military junta IRS good, but still better than the Erdogan's regime.
    For the Kurds it's better the revival of the ottoman empire, because it means the destruction of the turkey. Of course you like the Erdogan. The true enemy of Turkey isn't Greece, nor Kurds, nor Russia, nor other countries, instead the true enemy it's the religious state represented by AKP and Erdogan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    Personally, I believe that certain countries and cultures are better served by centrist values, politics and governments--and Turkey is one of them. Though Kemalism implemented many progressive, secularist, socialist policies within post WW1 Turkey, it also ironically touched on Stalinist totalitarianism veiled as "nationalism" in a few places, as far as seeking to aggressively rid Turkey of "cultural difference" and unite all underneath a narrowly defined Turkish identity and homogeneity through state sponsored violence--which is why the Kurds and Armenians were persecuted, disenfranchised and massacred. Extreme-leftists can be just as intolerant and destructive as the right-wing.

    I've said this elsewhere recently--fundamentalism in the modern world is more concerned with power, identity and legitimacy than it is to religion, which is usually secondary. Muslims find themselves in a peculiar position because unlike Christians, who have become thoroughly secular throughout much of the West and have a more decentralized and individualized notion of Christianity/spirituality/belief, Islam is intimately and innately attached to their identity; it's even more important than their ethnicity and nationality in many cases. And that identity is connected to a traditional value system that finds itself at odds with science, modernity, secularism and Western cultural dominance. Therefore, of course resistance and pushback in the form of an opposing ideology and worldview, rooted in fundamentalism, is to be expected. Historically--across all countries, peoples and belief systems, an inability to reconcile social complexity (power dynamics and hegemony/identity politics) lays at the heart of fundamentalist uprisings. Under Erdogan, the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction, which will have dire consequences for the Turkish people who are perhaps better served by a system that allows for all, both the traditional and the secular, to have equal voices.

    I also think it's important to mention that Erdogan won the last election by a 52/48 margin, so it's not as if the Turkish people overwhelmingly chose an Islamist. There is a real tension between traditional Muslim values and the Western secular values. Interestingly enough, the USA finds itself in a somewhat similar situation--though a bit less volatile--as far as the tension between conservative Christian values and secular liberalism both vying for dominance.
    Actually, the AKP in last elections didn't won more than 50% , actually they went only to 49% , and the electoral process was doubtful. Not mentioning here the skirmishes between the turkey police and the Kurdish rebels went heavier at the time of the electoral process.

    To conclude: the Erdogan and AKP has nothing to do with a democratically elected government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    That was basically the biggest nonsense argument I have been given since years. I might be Kurd but obviously my information is not biased, the article is from Turkish news paper. The very same guy who started the operations in destroying Kurdish cities with Tanks (the same general sent Tanks and Helicopters on to the streets of Istanbul why should he have any issues in doing it so in Kurdish cities), was also the guy who started this coup. If a fascist military tries to overthrow a powerhungry regime, don't expect from any sane and not biased individual, to be supportive for that. Ironiy is that you call my informations biased because your own judgement is biased due to your political view on this.
    As a Kurd you wish for the destruction of turkey. Erdogan it's succeeding in this. We need a democratic Turkey, and they are destroying it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    No, Turkey would rather ally with Qatar due to the Sunni dictatorship. Greece, Cyprus, and Israel would outweigh any benefits of Russia aligning with Turkey. Personally I wish that Greece, Cyprus, and Israel would turn their backs on Russia but Putin and his propaganda machine are really good at propping up Eurasianist political movements in other countries. Russia has no interest in Turkey but would rather try to counter America and Israel to seek favor with the Kurds.
    The true and the most desire of Russia, it's the alliance with Turkey. It would be the victory of the century for them. Putin knows well that the enemy isn't Turkey, but USA and NATO. Erdogan's goal it's the revive of Ottoman empire. This will never be allowed by NATO and he knows it. His expansionist ideas fits better with the expansionist ideas of Putin. This will be better for both. Tsar~ Putin alliance.

    Russia doesn't care for Greece and they don't need Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Don't spend your time with hypothetical coalitions between countries that can offer only their geographical position. You need a key to understand a situation. Behind the conflicts, the wars, the different crisis and military putchs is the conflict between great powers. It is not a coincidence that a few days before the putch there was a mea culpa of Erdoğan about the Russian jet.


    Of course, the interest of every country is important in the game, but not decisive. Who decide in the end are the big guys.
    I was predicting this since a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinarid View Post
    You theorized that Turkey will be pulled into Eurasia. My response was to observe and postulate about the relationship between America, Greece, Cyprus, Israel, Russia, and Turkey. These are facts. Israel does have an increasingly strong military alliance with Greece and Cyprus. Russia also does play a role for all of these countries. I see these hypothetical situations as quite useful- I don't quite understand your objection.
    Comparing Israel with Greece and Cyprus it's nonsense. The only ally of Israel it's USA. Greece and Cyprus are not enough strong to deal with the geo politics, instead Israel it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Turkish people have voted Erdogan in power (unless the votes were rigged which i dont think so) So why a coup? unless he decides that there will be no more elections and establish a dictatorship. Also in Egypt. Isn't this antidemocratic irrelevant to whether you agree with the policies or not? What I cannot understand is why people are happy to vote for these people in the first place? There must be many reasons for this, were people who live in different social structures will find it difficult to understand.
    Before 1990 there were held elections in my country every year. The communist party won the elections every time. The result 99% of voters voted pro the communist party .

    Erdogan democratically elected! ! Please, don't make me laugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    As a Kurd you wish for the destruction of turkey. Erdogan it's succeeding in this. We need a democratic Turkey, and they are destroying it

    interresting words, 'WE NEED'?

    are you a Turk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    because Erdogan takes controll over the press and the media
    he limits free speech, punishing 'insults'
    he is dividing the country and doesn't respect any human rights
    he is replacing judges and military officers by men of his own environment
    it looks like his ultimate goal is to abolish democracy

    he is no better than Puttin

    and indeed a majority of Turks was stupid enough to vote on him
    I din't know how this can be resolved, I'm quite pessimistic
    I'm glad they are not in the EU
    shame on you, Frau Merkel to restart negociations
    To add either the revoke of immunity of the deputies of parliament. They could be arrested at any moment if the Erdogan's security service this that any of them it's suspended for terrorism. They call it the anti terror law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I agree that Negotiations are a good thing, unless someone decides that its ok to give up some of the basic fundamental values just to accommodate a country for a particular reason or another. The few Turks I came across were very secular (not to mention very nice and friendly people) but mostly came from Istanbul (if it makes any difference). But Turkey is a large country and it seems its going to take a very long time before they would feel genuinely comfortable being part of the EU and also of course the other way round.
    1- The Turks of European part and western Anatolia are more secular than the others.

    2- the Turkish migrants are more westerners than the Turks living in Turkey. We have many here in my country and they looks not oriental.

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    Country: Greece



    well as it seems Turkey is moving to civil war,

    by what Hamza hemze the Kurd says
    Turkey's miltary groups have been seen at the mountains as rebels against Erdogan,
    at least 40 helicopters missing etc etc

    at Con/polis Allevi Turks tooks arms and guard the roads of their neighborhoods, since Erdogan's crowd is entering with attacking and hostile feelings
    At Malateia tonight street fights and a kind of war/pogrom is on loose against Allevi and HDP party and kurds

    well this story reminds me 1950's at Turkey and Menteres,
    if Islamist take the power then about 30 000 000 Allevis and Kurds might ask asyllum at EU,

    seems like Erdogan nowdays is playing his last cards,
    either he manage to pass the Sunni Islamic Ottoman empire
    either he will be hanged like Menteres
    17 september is not far
    the first total sunni state was created by Suleigman the magnificent when he killed Grand Vizier Ibrahim pasha, the Greek, and settled the Kadi (sunic law judges and lawers)
    also Allevi Piri Reis and Greek Barbarosa although he sent the last one to Tynissia.

    Erdogan has expelled his 2 early life and carrer friends
    Fetullah Gullen
    and Davutoglu
    in fact like another Suleigman he created a Fetva against Gullen, and he asks his head,
    I think his paths follow the Suleigman paths, or the Menteres steps

    well I still support democracy and the elected goverment at Turkey,
    but I think is time for new elections there.

    to understand more what is happening to Turkey
    look this


    only the man is not Turk, but Morrocan, his name is Redouan Balch,
    now why a morrocan is fighting for Erdogan?
    I do not know, but I can guess,

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