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Thread: Proto-Indo-Europeans = Proto-Dealers of Cannabis

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    Arrow Proto-Indo-Europeans = Proto-Dealers of Cannabis

    Apparently dealing cannabis was a very lucrative business on the Eurasian Steppe of the Bronze Age:

    Article - https://www.newscientist.com/article...-dope-dealers/



    Also in later times, Iranic-speakers of the Pazyryk culture (including the Ukok Princess) smoked weed:

    "The Ukok plateau, Altai, Siberia, where Princess and two warriors were discovered. Their bodies were surrounded by six horses fully bridles, various offering of food and a pouch of cannabis":

    Full article - The astonishing 2,500 year old tattoos of a Siberian princess - and how little has changed in the art | Daily Mail Online

    The mummy of Ukok Princess with tatoos - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNsV8ARnHK...0/93972694.jpg

    ^^^ She died aged ca. 25 years old.

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    I've always claimed this for IE's. I hope it to be true. It would account for their apparent unprecedented skill at animal mastery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The stereotypical stoner beliefs were all true, is seems.

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    This thread means a lot to me.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    I think Pazyryk culture is too eastern to be considered Scythian in the proper sense. It was in any case a rather mixed Eurasian culture, wherein only the women resembled the Caucasoid populations of the western grasslands and Eastern Europe.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Apparently dealing cannabis was a very lucrative business on the Eurasian Steppe of the Bronze Age...Also in later times, Iranic-speakers of the Pazyryk culture (including the Ukok Princess) smoked weed..
    these scytoid tribes of a short period of the 700-400 BC weren't proto-indoeuropeans, who dwelled the steppes millenias earlier. It even isn't quite clear if the pazyryk were IE at all. Guess the whole issues of drug dealing IE is a primitive racist slur and has nothing to do with science at all.

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    Do we have PIE word for Cannabis?
    On other hand might not be an issue.

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    it looks like they brought cannabis into China 5000 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think Pazyryk culture is too eastern to be considered Scythian in the proper sense. It was in any case a rather mixed Eurasian culture, wherein only the women resembled the Caucasoid populations of the western grasslands and Eastern Europe.
    ???
    Have you some basis to your present affirmation concerning complete dichotomy between males and females in Pazyryk? It seems Pazyryk population was heterogenous at some stage of its life ('europoid'/'east-asian', roughly said), in the meaning of individuals showing different degrees of admixture, based on anDNA; even if I have not the sex of the concerned remnants, I can guess it was not so simple (males vs females). I 'll try to find more details about Pazyryk evolution by time. If you have some details at hand, you can give them to me.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think Pazyryk culture is too eastern to be considered Scythian in the proper sense. It was in any case a rather mixed Eurasian culture, wherein only the women resembled the Caucasoid populations of the western grasslands and Eastern Europe.
    Scytho-Siberian
    Pazyryk culture
    Altaï Republic Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96 K1] M 450 BC

    F2a Ricaut 2004c
    Scytho-Siberian
    Pazyryk culture
    Altaï Republic Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96K2] M 450 BC R1a1a M17 D? Ricaut 2004c;Keyser 2009


    mtDNA is eastern, Y DNA European

    we don't know the origin of the Scyths, only that they had expanded over a vast area

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    Someones think Pazyryk was Turkic, other I-Eans or more precisely Scythian ( I wait someone thinking they were Ugric). At first sight their culture were closer to Scythian cultures of other places. Others say the males were a mix of 'europoid' and 'east-asian' when females were more on the 'europoid side' (it's the case of the Princess), showing perhaps later relations with more western lands (trade). Others (scholars) think the mixture in Altay was ancient enough, based on mt-DNA, and that as a whole, the later expansions from Altay were the result of a demographic growth on the basis of an already well mixed population since a long enough time, without recent heavy moves from West or East into the region...???
    Helas I don't know how many corpses have been tested for Y and mt-DNA, and I suppose the number in cause is yet not sufficient - period by period - to allow a chronological stratification to show from where the first bearers of the culture came there IF they came there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Do we have PIE word for Cannabis?
    On other hand might not be an issue.
    The word cannabis in English comes from Greek via Latin. But Greek borrowed it supposedly from Scythian or Thracian.
    The fact that a most likely related word existed in Neo-Assyrian cuneiform texts in the first millenium BCE for me means that the root isn't necessarily IE.
    If it is IE it would mean that Scythians or Thracians (or some other 'Indoeuropeans') exported cannabis to Assyria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The word cannabis in English comes from Greek via Latin. But Greek borrowed it supposedly from Scythian or Thracian.
    The fact that a most likely related word existed in Neo-Assyrian cuneiform texts in the first millenium BCE for me means that the root isn't necessarily IE.
    If it is IE it would mean that Scythians or Thracians (or some other 'Indoeuropeans') exported cannabis to Assyria.
    It is interesting that from Cannabis some of the first ropes were made.
    In a dialect i speak,variant of southern-slavic the material "hemp" from which rope is made we call it Kanъb which is the most close word to the original name,the plant however generally is called in Slavic Konop,as well the various material made of it strings,ropes etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    mtDNA is eastern, Y DNA European

    we don't know the origin of the Scyths, only that they had expanded over a vast area
    R1a1a is European? How did you come to that conclusion?

    In any case, Pazyryk is a highly stratified culture spanning all across the Altai range. The skeletons retrieved from the Pazyryk burial mounds reveal an unambiguous association between morphology, sex and social status, with the Europoid skeletons showing a tendency towards lowered social status and female sex. That's what Sergei Rudenko who led the excavation at Pazyryk found; see his book "Frozen Tombs of Siberia: The Pazyryk Burials of Iron Age Horsemen".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    R1a1a is European? How did you come to that conclusion?
    where is the oldest R1a1a found?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Scytho-Siberian
    Pazyryk culture
    Altaï Republic Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96 K1] M 450 BC

    F2a Ricaut 2004c
    Scytho-Siberian
    Pazyryk culture
    Altaï Republic Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96K2] M 450 BC R1a1a M17 D? Ricaut 2004c;Keyser 2009


    mtDNA is eastern, Y DNA European

    we don't know the origin of the Scyths, only that they had expanded over a vast area

    Thanks, bicicleur

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    R1a1a is European? How did you come to that conclusion?

    In any case, Pazyryk is a highly stratified culture spanning all across the Altai range. The skeletons retrieved from the Pazyryk burial mounds reveal an unambiguous association between morphology, sex and social status, with the Europoid skeletons showing a tendency towards lowered social status and female sex. That's what Sergei Rudenko who led the excavation at Pazyryk found; see his book "Frozen Tombs of Siberia: The Pazyryk Burials of Iron Age Horsemen".
    Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Do we have PIE word for Cannabis?
    On other hand might not be an issue.
    Yep, *kan(n)aB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_cannabis)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???
    I think this is a fitting thread for me to tell you that I've always needed to smoke weed to understand your posts. This isn't a bad thing. I think it's because they're dense.

    Of course I don't mean this literally, but for some reason I noticed when I'm blowing through a thread I slow down on your posts. Unless I'm stoned, in which case I appreciate the succinctness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???
    this looks good to me

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachme...4&d=1470068892
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  21. #21
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???
    I don't think it's really possible to assign a language to pre-literate cultures like this, especially when the material culture is rather pan-Eurasian as is the case with the shamanistic animal style found in Pazyryk. The objects that are really distinctive seem to be imports from South Asia, namely Iran & India.

    As regards to your proto-Turkic suggestion, I think Pazyryk is too old for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I don't think it's really possible to assign a language to pre-literate cultures like this, especially when the material culture is rather pan-Eurasian as is the case with the shamanistic animal style found in Pazyryk. The objects that are really distinctive seem to be imports from South Asia, namely Iran & India.

    As regards to your proto-Turkic suggestion, I think Pazyryk is too old for that.

    You surely noticed it was a "maybe" or a "perhaps"; but cultures exchange(d): it seems Scythian art had some imput on (late) celtic art so...
    Your remark concerning language is one I red more than a time here and there; but don't forget languages are for the most born by proto-languages themselves born bt proto-proto-languages. As for haplos, Y-R1b-P312 is born by Y-R1b-L11: thinking people with P312 are steeply different from people with L11 is a perspective error I found very often in posts. Concerning language my loose hypothesis was that maybe in Altay (more East) there was a population ancestral to futur Turks or Huns with the corresponding ancestral stage of language, and in contact with I-Eans having reached the Altay.the big mobility of all the steppes population could (not: "can") explain the art influences? In BMAC region we saw stations with BMAC pottery and Steppics weapons, if I red well.
    The ethnic / linguistic borders are not always so easy to detect based only upon archeology, if we lack language and DNA (and even with them!)
    Good afternoon.

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    Some possible readings concerning Great Central Asia. I haven't red them, only cross-looked at them. Let's google them. It concerns more Siberia than Central Asia proper but they are at the borders and interacted with I-Eans of East and of South at some stages of History.



    Iron Age Nomads of Southern Siberia in craniofacial perspective. RW Schmidt & AA Evleev

    Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai - M GOnzalez Ruiz 2012

    Non-metric Traits in Early Iron Age Cranial Serie from Western and Southern Siberia (Siberia Anthropology - Doi / VG Moiseyev Museum of Anthorpology)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    where is the oldest R1a1a found?
    In Karelia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I think this is a fitting thread for me to tell you that I've always needed to smoke weed to understand your posts. This isn't a bad thing. I think it's because they're dense.

    Of course I don't mean this literally, but for some reason I noticed when I'm blowing through a thread I slow down on your posts. Unless I'm stoned, in which case I appreciate the succinctness.
    Some little taste of irony? Or rather cool humor, I think, according to your other posts. It's true I try to write the less posts possible and put in them a lot of stuff, not always with the clearest syntax or the most logical order. I 'll try to do well in future. But human story research is based upon many aspects and I try to put them all in the same bag very often. Nos vad.

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