Crime Yet another act of terror in France

[LABERIA]

I've meet a lot of American Muslims that are peaceful people. You can commonly see them all over the place in Seattle. Sure there are some bad guys here and there but those terrorists are a minority whom taken over the stereotype. Every time I turn on the news in the morning they usually talk about crimes that happened either last night or yesterday, the perpetrators tend to be of all races.

I agree with you. The problem is that i see people from Balkans and east Europe giving lessons to the westerners. This people consider this a great opportunity to promote their new ethnic identities and to hide some black spots in their history. Also this problem with Islam, is a great opportunity for an Orthodox Russia to continue their agenda. This is propaganda and has nothing to do with the problem that we are discussing here.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Pope Francis during WYD in Cracow on priest killing: World is at war, but it's not a religious one

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/27/europe/france-church-attack-aftermath/index.html

"The world is at war because it has lost peace," he said.
"There is a war of interest, there is a war for money, a war for natural resources, a war to dominate people," he continued.
"Some might think it is war of religion. It is not. All religions want peace. Others want war."

================================

^ Indeed, it seems that the problem is not religion, but ethnicity. After all, only Muslim Arabs (rather than all Muslims) do this.

So the problem is specifically with Arabs. But people don't say this openly because they are afraid of being accused of racism.

The pope might elaborate a bit more on what he says about the cause of war.
He does his very best to deny there is an ideological aspect of the war.
In some countries Muslims are taught to disrespect the 'infidels'.
They blame the 'infidels' for whatever goes wrong. They create hatred.
It is from these countries that the attackers and terrorists originate.
The attackers are psychologically unstable but a lot of others sympathise with them and trigger the actions of these attackers.
There are a lot of such countries.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'am not against the use of intelligent force to stop this. But I dont't want to get trapped in the IS agenda. The 'pleasure' you can make them is to react as stucked by a bee, they are into a clash of civilizations, they want to make this Islam contra the West, crusaders etc.
Second I don't want to live in a police state, see Popper the open society and it's enemies.
We can cope this just like we did with the RAF, IRA etc etc.


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this is more than RAF and IRA
this is a global movement of hate preachers
their ideologie is total destruction of western values

 

[Petros Houhoulis]

I just saw the Pope Francis speaking on BBC in relation to the priest killing.
Here we have a denier.

Call from the grave:

 

[Petros Houhoulis]

Well, the guy has a spiritual explanation for everything. I can't wait to go to church this Sunday to see what Pope Francis has in mind.

That would be impossible. You can't see inside of his head without to open it or use X-rays, and it would still be impossible because its' empty...

Have you heard of the Dodo bird?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Extinction

Like many animals that evolved in isolation from significant predators, the dodo was entirely fearless of humans. This fearlessness and its inability to fly made the dodo easy prey for sailors.^[87]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Cultural_significance

The dodo's significance as one of the best-known extinct animals and its singular appearance led to its use in literature and popular culture as a symbol of an outdated concept or object, as in the expression "dead as a dodo," which has come to mean unquestionably dead or obsolete. Similarly, the phrase "to go the way of the dodo" means to become extinct or obsolete, to fall out of common usage or practice, or to become a thing of the past.^[129] "Dodo" is also a slang term for a stupid, dull-witted person, as it was supposedly stupid and easily caught.^[130][131]

The Western Europeans are something akin today. They have have not had wars or hardship since many decades ago, and they remain "fearless" of less civilized humans. Although, they won't be "dead as a Dodo" anytime soon, their religious leaders are already "Arch Dodo Priests" for all intents and purposes...

 

[Maleth]

 

[bicicleur 2]

it's a good synthesis of events, but it does not explain Muslim fundamentalism
it should be a lesson for the US and Europe never to trust any of these groups and never make them allies against whatever ennemy
the US made the mistake twice, first in Afghanistan against the Sovjet Union and 2nd by supporting some of these groups against Assad

 

[bicicleur 2]

In general religions are accused to be hypocrite. I think Pope is very honest in explaining the very core of the problem. The wars always are made for economic interests, for markets. The ideologies serve only to hide this truth. If during the XX century ideologies, especially the communism, tried to eleminate the religions and to take their place, in this century in a world without ideologies it's the religion, especially Islam, who want to take this place and enter in politics. It's all about money.

there is an ideological aspect
what money can motivate someone to blow himself up with the purpose to make as many victims as possible?
there are of course some who try to manipulate all this for their personal gain, but the ideology is very wide spread
the ideology is not only with the suicide attackers themselves but also with a lot of sympathisers who motivate the suicide bombers

 

[Angela]

The next person to post off topic material will get an infraction. The magic number is 10 I might remind some of you. I don't like acting like a cop during what is supposed to be a leisure pursuit, but I'll do it if I must.

 

[Twilight]

That would be impossible. You can't see inside of his head without to open it or use X-rays, and it would still be impossible because its' empty...

Have you heard of the Dodo bird?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Extinction



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Cultural_significance



The Western Europeans are something akin today. They have have not had wars or hardship since many decades ago, and they remain "fearless" of less civilized humans. Although, they won't be "dead as a Dodo" anytime soon, their religious leaders are already "Arch Dodo Priests" for all intents and purposes...

I really hope that my quote gets us back into an on topic discussion, fingers crossed
im not sure how a Dodo has to do with this thread.
A lot of Western European countries have been sending their armies to the Middle East including Francefor example. Not all those whom are Muslim can be call barbarians in a single brush stroke and neither are the Muslims in France where the attack happened. As a historical example, do all African Americans like watermelons?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL
Anyways, I admire the Priest willing to risk their lives for their religion. Sending condolences to those killed in the Normandy church.

 

[Milan]

there is an ideological aspect
what money can motivate someone to blow himself up with the purpose to make as many victims as possible?
there are of course some who try to manipulate all this for their personal gain, but the ideology is very wide spread
the ideology is not only with the suicide attackers themselves but also with a lot of sympathisers who motivate the suicide bombers

I agree with you,multiple times i have said that the problem is the ideology,anyone denying this is just delaying the problems or not want to see them.
Pope saying it is for interests see bellow,that is true,but any religion or call it ideology in this case is against war? some need history lessons there.
However this islamists showed up as very useful tool for political manipulation and gains used in order to benefit,unfortunately it backfires sometimes on the peaceful civilians.
Being said the one that support and fund this fundamentalism Wahabism,Salafi-Islam is Saudi and other gulf oil rich countries,weird there is no conflicts in their countries,they enjoy the wealth from oil they have and build their own laws,even beheading,cuting hands,among many other bizarre sharia laws does not disturb our notion of democracy and are good allies.

 

[Petros Houhoulis]

I really hope that my quote gets us back into an on topic discussion, fingers crossed
im not sure how a Dodo has to do with this thread.
A lot of Western European countries have been sending their armies to the Middle East including Francefor example.

Yes, indeed, but you forgot to point out that the major point of departure has been the Iraq war of 2003, and not the presence of any western troops in any Muslim country. That was a monumental disaster for everyone except the Kurds.

Furthermore, what you fail to grasp is that the presence of Western troops in the Middle East or elsewhere does not always have negative consequences, and sometimes they are even invited. The worst recent genocide in Rwanda took place because the west - and especially Bill Clinton - refused to interfere (they were busy with Yugoslavia at the time, where the death toll was much smaller), not because it did. The greatest recent famine/genocide combo in Somalia was the result of the withdrawal of the U.S. American forces (Black Hawk down) not because the west interfered there. Other genocides of immense proportions where the west didn't mess with include the Bangladesh war of independence. Even in Iraq where a portion of the west bares a huge responsibility, the casualties as a result of direct action by western forces is smaller than the casualties of the regime of Saddam Hussein, although the overall death toll due to religious and tribal warfare is certainly much bigger.

On the other hand, many western military bases in the gulf states are there because those smaller Arab emirates are afraid of their larger neighbors, Saudi Arabia and Iran in particular. Few of you around here could recall that when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Saudi Arabia found the opportunity to grab a small portion of disputed territory from another minor Arab neighbor.

Overall, the excuse that "The west is responsible for the conflicts in the Middle East" couldn't be further from the truth. Even the suggestion that the arms sales of western states to rich Arab states does not directly correlate to the bloodshed, since the bloodier recent genocide, that of Rwanda, materialized with machetes...

Don't play that leftist game with me. The causes of conflict in the Middle East (and elsewhere) have little or nothing to do with the west, no matter how much certain western states profit from them. Unless of course you want to legitimize the terror attacks in the eyes of the gullible... Nobody in this forum has gone to the crux of the matter of the real causes of conflicts.

Not all those whom are Muslim can be call barbarians in a single brush stroke and neither are the Muslims in France where the attack happened.

Islam, again, is not the direct cause of conflict. A look in the map would convince anybody that the reasons are once more correlated with geography rather than religion. The Muslim states of Central Asia are currently more peaceful than the Christian states of Africa or even Latin America. Islam is still, the religion which creates the most indirect causes of conflict, along with the Catholic church which comes a distant second.

As a historical example, do all African Americans like watermelons?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL
Anyways, I admire the Priest willing to risk their lives for their religion. Sending condolences to those killed in the Normandy church.

The priest had guts, but I guess that had to be expected from a man who lived though WWII or the aftermath of WWII. The millenials look like a lost cause, but I won't lose faith: Most U.S. kids had no experience in war prior to WWII, and yet they fought valiantly in the end...

 

[Milan]

off topic.

 

[Maleth]

it's a good synthesis of events, but it does not explain Muslim fundamentalism
it should be a lesson for the US and Europe never to trust any of these groups and never make them allies against whatever ennemy
the US made the mistake twice, first in Afghanistan against the Sovjet Union and 2nd by supporting some of these groups against Assad

More of a miscalculation of strategy I would say.

 

[Yetos]

I agree with you. The problem is that i see people from Balkans and east Europe giving lessons to the westerners. This people consider this a great opportunity to promote their new ethnic identities and to hide some black spots in their history. Also this problem with Islam, is a great opportunity for an Orthodox Russia to continue their agenda. This is propaganda and has nothing to do with the problem that we are discussing here.

\

Do you agree that Pope must declare this priest a Saint?
a clear behead for religious reasons,
they made saints for less,


The hypocrisy of West, and christianity,
they made so many martyrs, and saints and so much they wrote about Greeks and Romans and pagans, even they found carnivorous tribes to make Saints the last centuries,
but are afraid to call saint or at least martyr this poor old priest,

 

[Maleth]

\

Do you agree that Pope must declare this priest a Saint?
a clear behead for religious reasons,
they made saints for less,

I believe he would, but it is a long process. There need to be if not mistaken three miracles unexplained by science through his intersection (people involved praying to him) for the sainthood to go through. Even the body needs to be composed after a certain time after burial to prove saint hood. Something like that anyway.

 

[VMRO1893]

Well, i hope you elaborate this connection between this Ottoman Islamic rule and this assailants. Also it will be interesting if you share with us what your nation has learn in this 500 years of Ottoman Islamic rule.

That these people only understand sheer brute force. In our case it was delivered by Russia in 1877 and then again by the Balkan Alliance in 1913.

 

[Twilight]

Yes, indeed, but you forgot to point out that the major point of departure has been the Iraq war of 2003, and not the presence of any western troops in any Muslim country. That was a monumental disaster for everyone except the Kurds.

Furthermore, what you fail to grasp is that the presence of Western troops in the Middle East or elsewhere does not always have negative consequences, and sometimes they are even invited. The worst recent genocide in Rwanda took place because the west - and especially Bill Clinton - refused to interfere (they were busy with Yugoslavia at the time, where the death toll was much smaller), not because it did. The greatest recent famine/genocide combo in Somalia was the result of the withdrawal of the U.S. American forces (Black Hawk down) not because the west interfered there. Other genocides of immense proportions where the west didn't mess with include the Bangladesh war of independence. Even in Iraq where a portion of the west bares a huge responsibility, the casualties as a result of direct action by western forces is smaller than the casualties of the regime of Saddam Hussein, although the overall death toll due to religious and tribal warfare is certainly much bigger.

On the other hand, many western military bases in the gulf states are there because those smaller Arab emirates are afraid of their larger neighbors, Saudi Arabia and Iran in particular. Few of you around here could recall that when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Saudi Arabia found the opportunity to grab a small portion of disputed territory from another minor Arab neighbor.

Overall, the excuse that "The west is responsible for the conflicts in the Middle East" couldn't be further from the truth. Even the suggestion that the arms sales of western states to rich Arab states does not directly correlate to the bloodshed, since the bloodier recent genocide, that of Rwanda, materialized with machetes...

Don't play that leftist game with me. The causes of conflict in the Middle East (and elsewhere) have little or nothing to do with the west, no matter how much certain western states profit from them. Unless of course you want to legitimize the terror attacks in the eyes of the gullible... Nobody in this forum has gone to the crux of the matter of the real causes of conflicts.Islam, again, is not the direct cause of conflict. A look in the map would convince anybody that the reasons are once more correlated with geography rather than religion. The Muslim states of Central Asia are currently more peaceful than the Christian states of Africa or even Latin America. Islam is still, the religion which creates the most indirect causes of conflict, along with the Catholic church which comes a distant second.

The priest had guts, but I guess that had to be expected from a man who lived though WWII or the aftermath of WWII. The millenials look like a lost cause, but I won't lose faith: Most U.S. kids had no experience in war prior to WWII, and yet they fought valiantly in the end...

You may say that I'm a leftist but the fact remains, we are just talking about French Muslims and the incident at a Normandy Catholic Church. Your statements although agreeable, is off subject I'm afraid and is for another thread.

 

[Tomenable]

deleted, it was fake

 

[Northener]

this is more than RAF and IRA
this is a global movement of hate preachers
their ideologie is total destruction of western values

Of course different time different development.
The core thing is that in (Western) Europe that we have created, although never perfect, democracy, with as core thing:: How we can stand different views, religions, ideologies, without violence and without creating a tendency to wash out differences and dispute, or to create a false homogenity. That's political liberalism as set after 1848.

Populism on the contrary creates the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we". Closed minds. Can't stand differences.

These jihadist are no direct threat to our western society, to marginal. The indirect threat is more villain. Because this can mean a up heal of right wing populism. In the end is this the real threat to political liberalism.







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