Berbers are white and caucasoid people?

[Twilight]

Ignore it. I do not know the answer to the question can anyone help me
:embarassed::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

Sure thing, what is the question specifically? ^_^

 

[andresasj]

Sure thing, what is the question specifically? ^_^

I can not delete my answers in my own question. How do I delete my answers?

 

[Promenade]

We don't have ancient autosomal dna from North Africa, which is what would tell you about pigmentation...

As for the Berbers, it depends which Berbers are under discussion. The Tuareg are Berbers too.

The Mozabites:

They're about 20% SSA, to the best of my recollection.


Also, I don't think it's accurate to see Berber North Africans versus "Arab" North Africans as two completely distinct ethnic groups. A lot of so called, by themselves as well as by others, "Arab" North Africans, have a lot of "Berber" ancestry; it's just that they no longer speak a Berber language. There's still a lot of controversy as to how much of an impact the "Arab" invasions actually had.


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber

"The Berbers live mainly in Morocco (between 35 percent-60 percent of the population) and in Algeria(about 15 33 percent of the population), as well as Libya and Tunisia, though exact statistics are unavailable. [7] Most North Africans who consider themselves Arab also have significant Berberancestry. [8] Prominent Berber groups include the Kabyles of northern Algeria, who number approximately four million and have kept, to a large degree, their original language and culture; and the Chleuh (francophone plural of Arabic "Shalh") and Tashelhiyt of south Morocco, numbering about eight million. Other groups include the Riffians of north Morocco, the Chaouia of Algeria, and theTuareg of the Sahara. "

Also, could you please provide a source for the percentage of R1b in North Africa? My recollection is that it varies a great deal by country. It's also important whether we're talking about upstream or downstream clades.

In my opinion, the Wiki article on North African genetics is not reliable as it looks as if one of the internet warriors has been at it.

You can look at this Henn et al paper on their autosomal make up, but I'm not so sure about the relatively recent date they come up with for West African admixture(post or contemporary to the Arab slaves trade. There are all sorts of problems with those programs. Anyway, there's a difference between East African and West African.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397

.

I guess I should have been clearer when I mentioned Berbers because it is as much of a language group as an ethnic group and a Tuareg will differ substantially from a Kabyle but I think that we understand that he was referring to Berber groups like the Riffians and Kabyle and obviously not the Taureg and berber groups in the south that have come in contact with a lot of admixture from SSA.

And I do believe there is a very big difference between the Arab speaking and Berber speaking africans to refer to them as different ethnic groups, at least culturally. The Berber speaking populations live in separate geographical regions, speak their own language, have a separate culture, even have their own writing system and political parties. But I think the point of this thread is to ask the question "is this difference also genetic and reflected through phenotype?"

My source for the y-dna is just what I saw from the wiki, supposedly it also came from Tizi Ouzou which is one of the less secluded areas. I don't think the wiki looked very reliable either but it's the only place I found any genetic info on them that wasn't behind a pay wall. It was R1b1a1a2 (R-M269) so it's related to the European R1b subclades. This was found among Mesolithic populations in Spain, correct?

The study reports that Maghrebi ancestry results from back to africa migrations around 12,000 years ago. Egyptians, Algerians And North Morrocans seem to have roughly equal amounts South European autosomal dna but Egyptians and Libyans have fare more east african and Near eastern ancestry. Tunisian Berbers were almost purely maghrebi, I wonder how Kabyle and Riffians compare?
[h=3][/h]

 

[Angela]

Yes, I know that the "Berbers" by definition speak the Berber language and still follow more ancient customs to varying degrees. The point is that many "Berbers" assimilated into the elite population, and lost their customs and language. So, the Arabic speaking North Africans are not 100% "Arabic" or descended 100% from later migrants. That's not even close. So, in terms of genetics it's not "pure Berbers" whatever that even means, versus pure Arabs.

Yes, I also get that the fascination is with pigmentation, again, and some desire to know if before the advent of the slave trade all North Africans were as "white" looking as the ones who look "whitest" now, like the Kabyles and the Riffians. The answer is that we don't know, and will have to wait for ancient dna.

As to your comments about R1b, yes, one study found R1b at 16% in some Kabyles, but in Moroccan Berbers the highest every found was about 2%, so I don't see how "paleness" can be correlated in North Africa with R1b.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231t1.html#figure-title

The paper that typed the R1b in the Kabyles is very old and the R1b designations are based only on STRs.

Arredi et al: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(07)62417-3

"R1*(xR1a1,R1b1-R1b8)"

As to Mesolithic Spain, there has never been any R1b found. La Brana is C1a2, Loschbour in Luxembourg is I2a1b.

This is a good resource for published ancient dna results:

Paleolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

Mesolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

As you can see, Villabruna from Italy is R1b, but none in Iberia.

You don't need to have R1b to have pale pigmentation. There were depigmentation snps present in the Anatolia Neolithic, and no R1b so far.

 

[Promenade]

Yes, I know that the "Berbers" by definition speak the Berber language and still follow more ancient customs to varying degrees. The point is that many "Berbers" assimilated into the elite population, and lost their customs and language. So, the Arabic speaking North Africans are not 100% "Arabic" or descended 100% from later migrants. That's not even close. So, in terms of genetics it's not "pure Berbers" whatever that even means, versus pure Arabs.

Yes, I also get that the fascination is with pigmentation, again, and some desire to know if before the advent of the slave trade all North Africans were as "white" looking as the ones who look "whitest" now, like the Kabyles and the Riffians. The answer is that we don't know, and will have to wait for ancient dna.

As to your comments about R1b, yes, one study found R1b at 16% in some Kabyles, but in Moroccan Berbers the highest every found was about 2%, so I don't see how "paleness" can be correlated in North Africa with R1b.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231t1.html#figure-title

The paper that typed the R1b in the Kabyles is very old and the R1b designations are based only on STRs.

Arredi et al: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(07)62417-3

"R1*(xR1a1,R1b1-R1b8)"

As to Mesolithic Spain, there has never been any R1b found. La Brana is C1a2, Loschbour in Luxembourg is I2a1b.

This is a good resource for published ancient dna results:

Paleolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

Mesolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

As you can see, Villabruna from Italy is R1b, but none in Iberia.

You don't need to have R1b to have pale pigmentation. There were depigmentation snps present in the Anatolia Neolithic, and no R1b so far.

I think you took my speculations a little too seriously. I dont think there is a single person here who thinks that you need R1b or any specific y dna haplogroup to have pale skin, I just thought it was interesting that it was found at higher levels within the Kabyle population and that it was perhaps something to look into. I was going to make a point in my first post that autosomal data would be more important but I think that's a given.(The fact that none of arab algerians had y-dna R despite almost twice as many arab algerians being tested compared to berber algerians who had y-dna R at 16 percent is still an important observation though. Seems berber algerians have significantly less y-dna J compared to arab algerians as well, but of course the sample size is not ideal)

It's not a black and white arab vs berber split in these countries, they've obviously mixed and no one ever said either group was purely homogeneous. I just wanted to make it clear that although although there is an overlap there is also a cultural and possibly even a genetic split to an extent. When I say arab algerian i dont mean that this person is a person who originated from the arabian peninsula, I mean that this person speaks arab and does not participate in the same cultural aspects that berber speaking algerians do.

The data from the Tunisian Berbers show that there is a large genetic disparity between the arab and berber speaking groups, my guess would be it's the same in Algeria.

 

[Angela]

I think you took my speculations a little too seriously. I dont think there is a single person here who thinks that you need R1b or any specific y dna haplogroup to have pale skin, I just thought it was interesting that it was found at higher levels within the Kabyle population and that it was perhaps something to look into. I was going to make a point in my first post that autosomal data would be more important but I think that's a given.(The fact that none of arab algerians had y-dna R despite almost twice as many arab algerians being tested compared to berber algerians who had y-dna R at 16 percent is still an important observation though. Seems berber algerians have significantly less y-dna J compared to arab algerians as well, but of course the sample size is not ideal)

It's not a black and white arab vs berber split in these countries, they've obviously mixed and no one ever said either group was purely homogeneous. I just wanted to make it clear that although although there is an overlap there is also a cultural and possibly even a genetic split to an extent. When I say arab algerian i dont mean that this person is a person who originated from the arabian peninsula, I mean that this person speaks arab and does not participate in the same cultural aspects that berber speaking algerians do.

The data from the Tunisian Berbers show that there is a large genetic disparity between the arab and berber speaking groups, my guess would be it's the same in Algeria.

I hate to be nitpicking all the time, but actually there is indeed R1b in the general Algerian population, although it wasn't found in that study. It's found at 2% in one of the papers to which I linked. It's very downstream, though, so probably Roman or other European people, perhaps even slaves.

As the Berbers are a very isolated group, in whom founder effects would loom very large, I'd be cautious about reading too much into their yDna distributions regarding total genetic similarity.

 

[Angela]

In thinking about this, it occurred to me that on the anthrofora where this is a "hot" topic, a balanced or broad range of Kabyle phenotypes might not have been published. So...

Abane Ramdane:

Krim Belkacim,

Ferhat Mehenni:

Idris Aberkane:

Idir

Said Sadi

Karim Benzema

Mustaphaa Oourad:

I got the names from the Wiki entry for famous Kabyles. I chose randomly in a couple of categories, with the exception of Benzema.

A few might pass in southern Europe, but most would not.

So, if the pre-Arab Conquest North Africans looked like them, which ones did they look like, or was there variety even then? We just don't know.

 

[MOESAN]

The question - for me - was: are the Berbers Eurasians as a whole, as an original pop. I answered I thought yes.
That said, first Arabs were in the same case.
Yes, today Berbers are differentiated within them, a lot of SSA auDNA came apparently from South, maybe at different times (constant osmosis by proximity + raids?), rather females mediated.
Yes, a lot of today "Arabs" of the Maghreb has more northwestern Africa DNA than truly southwestasian DNA.
A study about Algerians, Berbers Zenetes and Mozabites, Yoruba, French Basques, Palestinians, shows:
- Some individual cases are RECENT crossings, so not representative of far past
- The Zenetes are spred all the way between Yoruba and Algerians as concerning X chromospme (not mtDNA!) as concerning auDNA
- The Algerians are between Mozabites and Palestinians for auDNA
- The Palestinians are between Algerians and Basques for auDNA (in fact by absence of Mozabites elements?)
- The Mozabites are far enough from Basques but ARE NOT DRIFTED TOWARDS YORUBA IN ANY WAY: so we have to look for an other SSA or so called SSA component in them: eastafrican? It could explain the very light imput of 'negroid' in their phenotypes
- for X chromosome, Algerians, Mozabites and Palestinians overlap greatly, AND EVEN BASQUES tend to go closer to Palestinians, confirming ancient surveys concluding that X chromosomes don't show great oppositions in mediterranea so females mobility? Only the Zenetes show a very spanned panel of X chro., some of them completely included among farthest Yoruba, what seem confirming their auDNA tendancy to heterogeneity and permanent crossings concerning females for the most.

 

[MOESAN]

It's true that GENETIKER gives something like 18-20% of his 'yoruba' among Mozabites, from 12 to 25% (proxi) at the individual level. I forgot the Dodecad %s.

 

[BGD]

We don't have ancient autosomal dna from North Africa, which is what would tell you about pigmentation...

As for the Berbers, it depends which Berbers are under discussion. The Tuareg are Berbers too.

The Mozabites:

They're about 20% SSA, to the best of my recollection.


Also, I don't think it's accurate to see Berber North Africans versus "Arab" North Africans as two completely distinct ethnic groups. A lot of so called, by themselves as well as by others, "Arab" North Africans, have a lot of "Berber" ancestry; it's just that they no longer speak a Berber language. There's still a lot of controversy as to how much of an impact the "Arab" invasions actually had.


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber

"The Berbers live mainly in Morocco (between 35 percent-60 percent of the population) and in Algeria(about 15 33 percent of the population), as well as Libya and Tunisia, though exact statistics are unavailable. [7] Most North Africans who consider themselves Arab also have significant Berberancestry. [8] Prominent Berber groups include the Kabyles of northern Algeria, who number approximately four million and have kept, to a large degree, their original language and culture; and the Chleuh (francophone plural of Arabic "Shalh") and Tashelhiyt of south Morocco, numbering about eight million. Other groups include the Riffians of north Morocco, the Chaouia of Algeria, and theTuareg of the Sahara. "

Also, could you please provide a source for the percentage of R1b in North Africa? My recollection is that it varies a great deal by country. It's also important whether we're talking about upstream or downstream clades.

In my opinion, the Wiki article on North African genetics is not reliable as it looks as if one of the internet warriors has been at it.

You can look at this Henn et al paper on their autosomal make up, but I'm not so sure about the relatively recent date they come up with for West African admixture(post or contemporary to the Arab slaves trade. There are all sorts of problems with those programs. Anyway, there's a difference between East African and West African.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397

.

Angela, apologies first for resurrecting an old thread but in reading this, I had a question. Are you (or anyone else) aware of strong traces of Western European DNA in the population? I ask because the stories regarding slaving and concubines, who, allegedly were of quite a significant number, would suggest that there are some residual elements there.

 

[Luso]

They are ethnically quite diverse. Depends what you define as white

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Not white though a few are, Zidane for example

 

[MOESAN]

Zidane has a very 'europeanlike' phoenotype (specially for pigmentation), but that doesn't say us anything concerning his complete auDNA.
THat said, I think the most of coastal Mediterranean Kabyles and the people of the mountaneous Aurès (Berbers both) has less SSA autosomal input that the Mozabites.

 

[norbert]

They are not white and the term "Caucasian" should be abandoned once and for all. The correct term should be West Eurasian. As for the Berbers, or Amazigh as they prefer to be called, they have some ancient EEF admixture from Iberia and additional European admixture from either the captured slaves or the so-called Christian renegades who converted to Islam and participated in the capture of European slaves during the Barbary Slave Trade. So you might say they have some white admixture but they're clearly not a white people (or peoples). Besides, white is a category used for Europeans, even though it's quite arbitrary. People like to think in clear-cut categories but that's not how nature works.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

They are not white and the term "Caucasian" should be abandoned once and for all. The correct term should be West Eurasian. As for the Berbers, or Amazigh as they prefer to be called, they have some ancient EEF admixture from Iberia and additional European admixture from either the captured slaves or the so-called Christian renegades who converted to Islam and participated in the capture of European slaves during the Barbary Slave Trade. So you might say they have some white admixture but they're clearly not a white people (or peoples). Besides, white is a category used for Europeans, even though it's quite arbitrary. People like to think in clear-cut categories but that's not how nature works.

Nah Caucasian is better than West Eurasian, shorter and more accurate

 

[MOESAN]

They are not white and the term "Caucasian" should be abandoned once and for all. The correct term should be West Eurasian. As for the Berbers, or Amazigh as they prefer to be called, they have some ancient EEF admixture from Iberia and additional European admixture from either the captured slaves or the so-called Christian renegades who converted to Islam and participated in the capture of European slaves during the Barbary Slave Trade. So you might say they have some white admixture but they're clearly not a white people (or peoples). Besides, white is a category used for Europeans, even though it's quite arbitrary. People like to think in clear-cut categories but that's not how nature works.

at the phoenotypic level concerning Kabyles of the coastal region, they show mor 'europoid' traits than others, among them a majority of 'mediter' subtypes plus some archaic traits inherited from Mesolithic pop's. The SSA input is very low, nothing in common with southern Berbers (Touareg/Targhi), where tribes are very diverse, someones on the SSA side.
Curiously, among Kabyles I remarked sometimes traits evoking some traces of 'khoisan' type! (attenuated for hair, more marked for face and eyelids... !?! what could say auDNA here?

 

[Jovialis]

Funny, yet true!

Clearly this standard was too stringent to last, however. However, North Africans wouldn't even be in the running by early U.S. standards.

 

[Vallicanus]

Funny, yet true!

Clearly this standard was too stringent to last, however. However, North Africans wouldn't even be in the running by early U.S. standards.

From what I've seen, the Irish have more really pale people (type 1) than the English.
The Gaels of Ireland considered the English to be sallow or even swarthy.

 

[norbert]

Plenty of people in England who look like Rowan Atkinson.

 

[Jovialis]

From what I've seen, the Irish have more really pale people (type 1) than the English.
The Gaels of Ireland considered the English to be sallow or even swarthy.

Back then the English didn't really see it that way: