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Thread: Ancient Central Anatolian Neolithic

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    But that was so obvious, since basically all Farmers ANatolian/EEF had Haplogroup I among them. It is not unlikely that allot of the I today in Europe is actually of Farmer ancestry.
    Concerning Y-I2a1 I would call for more caution. We have to wait for more proofs. Not impossible but not already proved. I'm not against the thought some Y-I2a1a came from South but we have to find which South they came from. Concerning Y-I2a1b I doubt I a little... The same for Y-I2a1.

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    I want to say the same for Y-I2a2

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I think the 2nd wave influenced Vinca, Cucuteni-Tripolye, Hamangia, Boian and Gumelnita cultures.
    So, steppe people were also affected by the second wave.

    I think this may be the earliest arrival of 2nd wave into the Balkans : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude%C8%99ti_culture
    They were herders in Wallachia (lower Danube)
    I think they were influenced by a different wave, a later wave, but was that different wave Tepecik or was it Barcin or Kumtepe like? Or were there three slightly different waves? I don't know. Does the archaeology help?

    I can't find specific dates for each sample. I wish they'd provided that. So, basically, all we know is:

    Boncuklu: 8300-7500 BC. Central Anatolia-Forager-elementary farming and some experimentation with pig domestication.

    Tepecik:7500-5800 BC-Central Anatolia- Mixed and complex plant and animal exploitation practices (hunting and gathering, cereal agriculture and domesticated animals...significant interaction with communities further east at the headwaters of the Tigris, perhaps having to do with obsidian.

    Barcin: 6400 BC Pottery Neolithic in NW, not Central Anatolia.

    Kumtepe: 5700 BC Copper Age NW Anatolia

    Did you take a look at the Admixture Chart?
    http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2...46/gr3_lrg.jpg

    I think it's important to note that the Boncuklu and Tepecik analysis is based on both whole genome and shotgun sequencing analysis. Was that always the case in all the papers in the past? Did they use the same set of samples for the modern populations? Could some of the discrepancies be accounted for by that fact?

    It looks as if they're saying that over time the "WHG like" percentage of the Boncuklu samples dropped a bit. Given the archaeology that I'll reference below, I think it's pretty clear that with the Pottery Neolithic there was migration from elsewhere, probably from the Tigris Euphrates area but perhaps also from the Levant which changed them slightly. By the time of Tepecik Central Anatolia was definitely less WHG.

    The EN samples seem to have quite a bit of variation. North-West Anatolian Pottery Neolithic Barcin is sort of in-between Boncuklu and Tepecik, and Kumtepe and Mentese, also further north, are sort of back up to the Boncuklu levels. What were the people who took off for Europe like? We know that there was a migration, pre-pottery Neolithic, from the coastal northern Levant where Syria meets Anatolia and which went to Cyprus among other places. We don't have samples from there. Does anyone know if there are even any available from that place and time? One might think they would have been more like Boncuklu, but they're also pretty close to where we might find Levant Neolithic. As for the movement of Pottery Neolithic like people out of the Near East, were they more Tepecik like or Barcin like? From what I remember of the archaeology there's very little to show any interactions between Barcin and the Balkans, for example. So, perhaps they were Tepecik like, but I don't know. I used to have the dates for the various early pre-pottery and pottery Neolithic settlements clear in my mind, but now I'd have to look them up. If anyone has a handle on it, please post.

    The FST charts are interesting too. Look at where both Boncuklu and Tepecik have the strongest correlation. It's certainly not the Near East. Also, I just noticed that for all the talk about how Levantine the Cypriots are, by this measure they are a lot more European than Levantine. Obviously, of course, this is just part of their genetic variation.

    Kilinc et al First Farmer F3 graphic (1).jpg

    Kilinc et al First Farmer F3 graphic (2).jpg

    Kumtepe is a whole other issue. The authors don't say, but is this Kumtepe 6? The authors do definitely see a closer correlation between Otzi/Remedello and Kumtepe, but can we tell from the analysis whether there was an actual movement of Kumtepe like people into southeastern Europe, or could it be that Boncuklu, Tepecik and some WHG picked up in Europe "looks like" Copper Age Kumtepe. On the other hand, there we have Otzi and Remedello with copper implements and other "hallmarks" of supposedly "Indo-European" culture, and yet no sign of "steppe" admixture at all, or so minor that it could be noise. So, could all of that have come from Northwestern Anatolia? Certainly, this paper underscores that, as Dienekes showed years ago, and as I've continued to say, Otzi has some CHG, which other MN samples do not.

    Anyway, the paper has some nice data on the archaeology, which hints at the source of the minor changes in the genetics.

    Farming came late to Anatolia: "The Epipalaeolithic of the plateau and its coastal fringes is poorly documented [S23]. However, one site on the plateau has been excavated at Pınarbaşı in the Konya Plain, where unlike the partially contemporary Levantine Early Natufian, there is no evidence of sedentary practices or intensive plant exploitation [S24]. The earliest sedentarising communities on the plateau appear in the 10th-9th millennia cal BC and are represented also by occupation at Pınarbaşı which lacks evidence of cultivation or herding [S25]."

    The "Basal Eurasian" must have arrived before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic: "The Pre-Pottery Neolithic period (PPN) of the plateau is better understood. Among the human groups and cultures of the Konya Plain there are indications of highly diverse but indigenous communities during this phase of uptake of sedentism, of cultivation and of herding."

    "There is thus substantial evidence for interactions between central Anatolia, the south coast of Turkey, the Levant and areas south-east of the Taurus from the Epipalaeolithic into the Pottery Neolithic [S32]."

    "A diversity of cultures can be described in the Anatolian plateau during the subsequent Pottery Neolithic, considered to span from c.7000 to c.6000 cal BC. In Çatalhöyük in the Konya Plain [S34,35] we find rectilinear closely packed house clusters as at 8th millennium Aşıklı Höyük, and domestic organization that resembles 9th- 8th millennium Boncuklu. In contrast, Tepecik-Çiftlik and Köşk Höyük in Volcanic Cappadocia have independent houses and open areas, pointing to cultural differences with the Konya plain...Recent work has detected many new settlements in the Volcanic Cappadocia region; these are thought to be related to migrating individuals and small groups, possibly moving over quite significant distances, attracted by the local obsidian sources."


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    Genetiker: Y-SNP calls from Neolithic central Asia Minor
    Sample Period Date BC Haplogroup
    Bon004 Pre-Pottery Neolithic > 8300 G2a2b2b-F705 calls
    Bon001 Pre-Pottery Neolithic 8212–7952 G2a2b2b1a-PF3422 calls
    Tep001 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G, J2, or R1b calls
    Tep006 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 C1a2-Y10446 calls
    Tep003 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G2a2a-PF3159* calls

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    after Genetiker Y-calls :

    3 x G2a2 + 1 x C1a2

    finally G2a2 like NW Anatolia & Europe neolithic
    no G2a2 was found in Levant or Iran HG & neolithic
    this G2a2 in Central Anatolia was a seperate tribe, the forfathers of Europe neolithic
    they were trading obsidian from Capadocia with the proto-Natufians in the Levant since 16 ka

    http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRou...dianRoutes.php
    http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/Slide1.jpg


    AFAIK this is the first neolithic settlement in the area, ca 10,8 ka

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9...%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

    it is very similar to the later Catal Huyuk area
    there are indications of early metallurgy in Catal Huyuk, but that is uncertain

    there is this study re origins of NW Anatolina neolithic

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0099845
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0099845.g001

    well, I think this study is wrong, now that I see the new genetic evidence

    as for early European neolithic :

    there is an early wave 8.8-9 ka to aceramic Sesklo and Crete about which very little is known

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesklo

    the 1st big wave was 8.4 ka to Thesally and to Corfu (carded/impressed ware)
    it looks like the 8.4 ka wave to Thesally had the same origin as Barcin/Mentese, and that this was the origing of later Starcevo and LBK
    Corfu 8.4 ka was carded/impressed ware






    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon004] PPN M 6500-6200 BC G2a2b2b – F705
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon002] PPN F


    K1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon005] PPN F


    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon001] PPN M 8212 – 7952 BC G2a2b2b1a – PF3422
    U3 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep001] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC G, J2 or R1b
    K1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC C1a2 – Y10446
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep003] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC G2a2a – PF3159*
    N1b1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep002] Pottery Neolithic F


    K1a12a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep004] Pottery Neolithic F


    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Turkey Barcın [I0707/BAR2 / L11-213] F 6500-6200 BC

    K1a4 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I0708/BAR6 / L11-439] M 6500-6200 BC J2a M410, L559, L212; J2a-M410 > PF4610 > Z6049 > Z6048(xS20392) N1b1a Mathieson 2015; Additional info on Y-DNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr

    Turkey Barcın [I0709/BAR20 / M13-170] M 6500-6200 BC H2 L281, P96, L284, L285, L286 U3 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I0736/L11-216] F 6500-6200 BC

    N1a1a1a Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I0744/M10-275] M 6500-6200 BC G2a2b2a Z3077, CTS688, PF3329, CTS4454, CTS10366, P303, Z3243, PF3342, Z3481, PF3343 J1c11 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I0745/M11-363] M 6500-6200 BC H2 L281, P96, L284, L285, L286 U8b1b1 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I0746/L11-322] M 6500-6200 BC G2a2b2a1c CTS342 K1a or K1a1 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1096/BAR26/M10-76] M 6500-6200 BC I2c L596, L597 N1a1a1 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1097/BAR271 / M10-271] M 6500-6200 BC G2a2b2a Z3077, CTS946, PF3329, CTS4454, CTS10366, Z3243, PF3342, Z3481 W1-T119C Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1098/BAR99 / M10-352] F 6500-6200 BC

    X2d2 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1099/L11-S-488] M 6500-6200 BC G2a2a1b L91 T2b Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1100/M11-351] F 6500-6200 BC

    K1a or K1a6 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1101/M11-352a] M 6500-6200 BC

    T2b Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1102/M11-354] M 6500-6200 BC C1a2 V20 K1a3a Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1103/M11-S-350] M 6500-6200 BC G2a2a1b1 PF3247 K1b1b1 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1579/M13-72] F 6500-6200 BC

    K1a-C150T Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1580/L12-393] F 6500-6200 BC

    H5 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1581/L12-502] F 6500-6200 BC

    U3 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1583/L14-200] M 6500-6200 BC G2a2a1b L91 K1a2 Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I1585/M11-59] F 6500-6200 BC

    J1 or J1c Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [I0854/L11-215] F 6500-6200 BC

    N1a1a1a Mathieson 2015
    Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0723/T1, M229 / UH] M 6400-500 BC G2a2a PF3165, PF3166, PF3175, PF3184 X2m2 Mathieson 2015
    Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0724/T2 / UP] M 6400-500 BC I CTS6231 K1a4 Mathieson 2015
    Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0726/M15, M15.2, M15.2 / UF] F 6400-500 BC

    H or H5-C16192T Mathieson 2015
    Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0727/M24 / UA JK 16] M 6400-500 BC G CTS11294 K1a2 Mathieson 2015
    Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0725/T4 / SSK15] F 6400-500 BC

    N1a1a1a Mathieson 2015

    Turkey Barcın [Bar31] M 6419–6238 BC G2a2b > genetiker G2a2b-L30*
    X2m Hofmanová 2015

    Turkey Barcın [Bar8] F 6212–6030 BC

    K1a2 Hofmanová 2015

    Turkey Kumtepe [Kum6]
    6,700 BP

    H2a Omrak 2016
    Chalcolithic Turkey Barcın Höyük [I1584 / M10-111] F 3943-3708 calBCE (5016±31 BP)

    K1a17 Lazaridis 2016


    Kumtepe was founded only 6.8 ka, it has nothing to do with neolithic Barcin/Mentese

    We need Vinca genomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Further, genetic affinities between later Anatolian farmers and fourth to third millennium BC Chalcolithic south Europeans suggest an additional wave of Anatolian migrants, after the initial Neolithic spread but before the Yamnaya-related migrations.

    In Italy this is confirmed by archaeology. Copper age italian cultures before the bell beaker had strong anatolian influences: laterza, gaudo, rinaldone etc.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Bicicleur,

    Could you explain your thinking about this in more detail?

    Bicicleur:http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0099845
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0099845.g001

    well, I think this study is wrong, now that I see the new genetic evidence

    That early wave went to Cyprus as well as to Sesklo and Crete, yes?


    I wish we had the yDna from the Turkey Chalcolithic.


    Also, in case someone hasn't seen it...

    "Gedmatch IDs:

    M311970 Bon002 Boncuklu, Central Anatolia 8279-7977 calBCE (10289-9987 BP)

    M380264 Rev5 Revenia, Central Greece 6438–6264 BCE (8448-8274 BP)
    M072869 Bar31 Barcin, Northwest Anatolia 6419-6238 BCE (8429-8248 ybp)
    M822045 Klei10 Kleitos, Central Greece 4230–3995 BCE (6240-6005 ybp)

    M197341 WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Central Zagros Iran 7455-7082 BCE (9465-9092 ybp)

    Bon002 had an unexpected eye color:
    Bon002 M311970 eye color prediction

    Try comparing the IBD of Bon004 at 100 SNPs and 1 cM with the others, and especially with:
    M677694 Satsurblia
    M603839 Kotias
    M115616 I0867 Levantine PPNB
    F999937 NE1 Starcevo
    F999916 Stuttgart LBK"

    I wouldn't take some of these calculator results as gospel, particularly the ones from Eurogenes that are always going to show inflated eastern and sometimes northern European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Bicicleur,

    Could you explain your thinking about this in more detail?
    Although domestic sheep and goats appear first in central Turkey by the mid eighth millennium cal BC, domestic cattle appear a millennium later and domestic pigs are never incorporated into Neolithic economies in this region [76]. The combination of domestic caprines, cattle and pigs occurs for the first time in Turkey, outside of the SE, in the early seventh millennium cal BC, where all four livestock species are evident in the Izmir region at Ulucak VI and then slightly later in SW Turkey at Bademağacı ENI, and in southern Turkey at Yumuktepe [102] (Fig. 1). Since a completely autochthonous domestication event in western Turkey is unlikely, this pattern suggests a rapid westward movement of domestic animals across southern Turkey [4]. The geography and timing of this early expansion suggest it may have followed a coastal route, either by land or by sea [20], although the initial phases of this process in southern Turkey are currently poorly documented [40],[103]. However, the absence of domestic cattle and pigs in central Turkey at this time suggests that this region was not directly involved in the earliest spread of domestic livestock either to the Lakes region or western Turkey and reaffirms the distinctive nature of the Central Anatolian Neolithic tradition [104][106].

    Barcin and Mentese Y-DNA dated 6500-6200 BC are in majority G2a2.
    G2a2 are nowhere found in meso- or neolithic SW Asia except in this study about central Anatolia (3 out of 4 are G2a2 and 1 is C1a2 which is found in Barcin too).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That early wave went to Cyprus as well as to Sesklo and Crete, yes?
    Cyprus was earlier, allready 10.8 ka

    oldest Sesklo dating is not so clear, but 9-8.8 ka seems quite likely
    in Crete, neolithic layers underneath Knosos have been dated to +/- 9-8.8 ka

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    I saw this posted elsewhere:

    " Bon002 is a very important result, because she lived at 8279-7977 calBCE looks just like a Starcevo or LBK farmer (what became of the Cardial people in Gedmatch?) but actually lived right near Çatalhöyük which existed from approximately 7500 BCE to 5700 BCE, and flourished around 7000 BCE. That's 500-700 years BEFORE Çatalhöyük.

    Çatalhöyük - Wikipedia

    Why would someone from South Central Anatolia from c. 8,100 BCE look almost the same as someone from Stuttgart Germany 5,100 BCE, 3,000 years later? And complete with a substantial portion of WHG admixture?

    It's as if the "admixed" Early European Farmers were already admixed with "European" WHGs when they first started farming in Anatolia."


    Haven't we been saying this for about a year? Boncuklu got slightly less WHG over time. If the major wave that went to Greece was Barcin like, then they might have indeed picked up a little extra WHG in Europe, but they had a good amount already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's as if the "admixed" Early European Farmers were already admixed with "European" WHGs when they first started farming in Anatolia."


    Haven't we been saying this for about a year? Boncuklu got slightly less WHG over time. If the major wave that went to Greece was Barcin like, then they might have indeed picked up a little extra WHG in Europe, but they had a good amount already.
    Exactly, we did. We suspected that WHG had refugium in Anatolia and Neolithic Farmers crossed with them there. At about 10% level, and later picked another 10% in Balkans.

    I'm yet to find time to read the newest paper. Just glanced at charts and posts and everything is what we expected to see in Central Anatolia. Though perhaps not that close to the edge of Fertile Crescent.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Exactly, we did. We suspected that WHG had refugium in Anatolia and Neolithic Farmers crossed with them there. At about 10% level, and later picked another 10% in Balkans.

    I'm yet to find time to read the newest paper. Just glanced at charts and posts and everything is what we expected to see in Central Anatolia. Though perhaps not that close to the edge of Fertile Crescent.
    yes, and I tought it was upto Karain and Belbasi cave area, near Antalia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belba%C5%9F%C4%B1
    in these caves there are presumed Aurignacian layers upto ca 19 ka and presumed Gravettian layers upto 15 ka
    it is not clear whether the Aurignacian layer is European Aurignacian or Levantine Aurignacian

    what is even more amazing now is this :

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC C1a2 – Y10446
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Tepecik-Ciftlik is so much further east than Karain and Belbasi cave area.

    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC C1a2 – Y10446
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

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    So he had the same Y-DNA as LaBrana and a paleolithic individual from the Czech Republic, very cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Exactly, we did. We suspected that WHG had refugium in Anatolia and Neolithic Farmers crossed with them there. At about 10% level, and later picked another 10% in Balkans.
    It is very important conclusion.

    We will wait new scientific papers for new samples and more details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    So he had the same Y-DNA as LaBrana and a paleolithic individual from the Czech Republic, very cool
    European Aurignacians were mainly C1a2. They were a minority amongst early Gravettian, who were mainly I*. Then they reappear in La Brana and in neolithic Europe and Anatolia.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Ice-Age-Europe
    http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reic...ature17993.pdf

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    Do we have Early Neolithic sample from Italy to compare it with Otzi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Do we have Early Neolithic sample from Italy to compare it with Otzi?
    Otzi was found on the Italian/Austrian border.
    Remedello was just south of the Alps, some 100-200 km form Otzi.

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    Remedello covered most of the Po Valley. Last I heard, that's Italy.
    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...anFig10-13.gif




    This is a good discussion of Remedello:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...tures-in-Italy

    Disappointingly, for some, the Bell Beaker level is less advanced than the prior Copper Age level.

    We really need more analyses of ancient dna in Italy. I know some is supposedly coming, but not, unfortunately, from the Reich Lab. One of many things I'd like to see is a comparison of Remedello and Rinaldone.

    These are the daggers they're talking about:


    This is a stelae from the Lunigiana, but they're all over eastern Liguria too.


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    @Angela,

    A paper is coming out this year with Bronze age DNA from all over Europe. This has been confirmed. I think we'll get it before New Years.

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    Otzi is not Early Neolithic, neither Remedello. They are LN or Chl.

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