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Thread: Ancient Central Anatolian Neolithic

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    8 out of 9 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient Central Anatolian Neolithic

    Yes! Now it's filling in more.

    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    Kilinc et al:

    "The Demographic Development of the First Farmers in Anatolia"

    "Highlights




    • Pre-pottery farmers had low genetic diversity, akin to Mesolithic hunter-gatherers


    • Genetic diversity levels are higher in the subsequent Pottery Neolithic


    • Central Anatolian farmers belonged to the same gene pool as early European farmers


    • Copper Age genetic affinities suggest a second wave of Anatolian gene flow


    Summary

    The archaeological documentation of the development of sedentary farming societies in Anatolia is not yet mirrored by a genetic understanding of the human populations involved, in contrast to the spread of farming in Europe [ 1–3 ]. Sedentary farming communities emerged in parts of the Fertile Crescent during the tenth millennium and early ninth millennium calibrated (cal) BC and had appeared in central Anatolia by 8300 cal BC [ 4 ]. Farming spread into west Anatolia by the early seventh millennium cal BC and quasi-synchronously into Europe, although the timing and process of this movement remain unclear. Using genome sequence data that we generated nine central from nine CentralAnatolian Neolithic individuals, we studied the transition period from early Aceramic (Pre-Pottery) to the later Pottery Neolithic, when farming expanded west of the Fertile Crescent. We find that genetic diversity in the earliest farmers was conspicuously low, on a par with European foraging groups. With the advent of the Pottery Neolithic, genetic variation within societies reached levels later found in early European farmers. Our results confirm that the earliest Neolithic central Anatolians belonged to the same gene pool as the first Neolithic migrants spreading into Europe. Further, genetic affinities between later Anatolian farmers and fourth to third millennium BC Chalcolithic south Europeans suggest an additional wave of Anatolian migrants, after the initial Neolithic spread but before the Yamnaya-related migrations. We propose that the earliest farming societies demographically resembled foragers and that only after regional gene flow and rising heterogeneity did the farming population expansions into Europe occur."

    Spread into west Anatolia from central Anatolia, or from the Levant? As for the last highlighted sentence, I've been saying that for years. Let's see now if they prove it.

    The PCA with both modern and ancient samples is very interesting indeed. You really should enlarge it and study it:
    http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2...45/gr2_lrg.jpg

    Just some initial reactions:

    Yamnaya and Afanasievo overlap. No modern population clusters close to them, although the Mordovians are perhaps the closest.

    Corded Ware and Andronovo overlap and are close to Karsdorf. The closest populations to them are the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Sintashta, Bell Beaker and Eperstadt are not far away. The closest to Bell Beaker, Eperstadt and Sintashta are again the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Even closer perhaps. They can't be unchanged since that time, right? There were movements into the Balkans from Slavic speaking areas, after all, or was that input smaller than we've been assuming, or from a place closer to the Balkans? That, or do you believe in coincidence?

    Corded Ware overlaps with Rathlin and isn't too far from Bell Beaker. Rathlin is really not too close to the English samples at all, and Corded Ware isn't close to Estonians, Lithuanians, Belorussians at all; it's much closer, again, to the Balkan populations and Hungary.

    The Bedouins and Saudis are pulled very far south, and the Jordanians and Palestinians as well. That has to be African gene flow, yes? It also must have started by the Bronze Age, because although the Bronze Age Levantine sample isn't there, from other papers we know it plotted among Saudis.

    Of course, after going through all this it's as well to remember there may be some projection bias, and a PCA is only a very small part of total variation.

    The rest will have to wait until tomorrow. I'm too tired.




    Last edited by Angela; 23-09-16 at 14:37.


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    It is important to note, the oldest new Anatolian Neolithic genomes are about as old as the recently sequenced Levant Neolithic genomes. I don't take that new PCA serisouly. Mordovians have a large amount of Siberian ancestry and therefore their position on that PCA can't be taken very seriously. Results I've seen suggest they're more similar to Northern Europeans than to Andronovo. They have an extra load of EEF/WHG that Andronovo did not have. Could be Slavic ancestry. Point is there are few populations in Russia with abnormally high amounts of Steppe ancestry for Northern Europe.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Fire Haired, do you really think that a difference of 2-3% is important on a PC map?
    Erzya ENA percentage is c. 4-8%. Kostroma Russians' ENA percentage is c. 5% and Tver Russians' ENA percentage is c. 2-4%.
    Erzya WHG extra is c. 2-7% and Russian WHG extra is c. 4-6%.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1448840466
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.be/2015/03...rtions-in.html

    In the admixture analysis of this new paper Mordovians and Russians have a similar amount of ENA.

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    So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
    Interesting.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    it's a pitty we don't find the Natufians, the Levant Neolithic and the Iran HG and neolithic on the PCA chart

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    Kumtepe is not older than 6800 years and it is the oldest settlement in the area.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe


    Turkey Kumtepe [Kum6]
    6,700 BP

    H2a Omrak 2016


    copper melting in Vinca culture started about 7.500 years ago

    maybe Kumtepe was the result of backmigration from the Balkans and admixture with local NW Anatolians

    also note, chalcolithic Europa has a lot of mtDNA H, just like Kumtepe 6

    what is the exact location of Kum6 on the PCA anyway? north or southwest of Barcin?

    we need Vinca genomes, they may be common ancestors to Remedello and Kumtepe and to a lot more European chalcolithic

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    what is the age of each of the individual samples here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
    Interesting.
    I'll have to check the exact language, but I think their point is that there were two Neolithic waves into Europe from Anatolia, and the later one may have impacted Remedello and Otzi more than the other areas, but that wouldn't necessarily mean total displacement.

    Whatever happened, it probably affected Greece and the Balkans as well, and perhaps first.

    We don't have the yDna for these samples yet. I hope we get them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'll have to check the exact language, but I think their point is that there were two Neolithic waves into Europe from Anatolia, and the later one may have impacted Remedello and Otzi more than the other areas, but that wouldn't necessarily mean total displacement.

    Whatever happened, it probably affected Greece and the Balkans as well, and perhaps first.
    that is why I mentioned Vinca above in my post n° 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We don't have the yDna for these samples yet. I hope we get them.
    I hope we'll get them from Genetiker or someone else the first few days

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Kumtepe is not older than 6800 years and it is the oldest settlement in the area.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe


    Turkey Kumtepe [Kum6]
    6,700 BP

    H2a Omrak 2016


    copper melting in Vinca culture started about 7.500 years ago

    maybe Kumtepe was the result of backmigration from the Balkans and admixture with local NW Anatolians

    also note, chalcolithic Europa has a lot of mtDNA H, just like Kumtepe 6

    what is the exact location of Kum6 on the PCA anyway? north or southwest of Barcin?

    we need Vinca genomes, they may be common ancestors to Remedello and Kumtepe and to a lot more European chalcolithic
    The Kumtepe 6 sample is supposed to be a black inverted triangle filled with green, right? I can't see anything like that on the PCA. There's a black with blue grey, but not black with green inside. If the rose circle is Kumtepe 6, it looks to me as if Kumtepe is slightly southeast or bordering on the main Barcin cluster.

    The Buncuklu "forager" into pre-pottery Neolithic sample is north of both of them. I think what the authors are proposing and what makes sense to me is that as time passed there was genetic flow from slightly more "southern" and then more "eastern" groups. It didn't wait until the Chalcolithic, as I said; it wouldn't have made sense. There was increasing population size and more and more exchange of technology.

    We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this, but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition, so not from Vinca, but rather into Vinca.

    I know I've sounded like a broken record about it but I do think this may be some proof of these subsequent gene flows. Remember that paper on the Greek ancient dna which found the biggest genetic change actually occurred during the early-to-Middle Neolithic, although some in the Chalcolithic as well?

    This would have mainly affected the Balkans/Greece, the Adriatic generally, Italy, but I think some of it might have also moved by sea to Spain.

    I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.

    This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)

    It's also interesting that the Bonkuklu "forager" samples have more WHG. Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all. So much for all that hysterical drama. The moral of the story is don't bet against the conclusions of this Lab.

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    Thank you for posting.

    At a cursory glance, one of the most striking things about the PCA for me is that the Swedish Hunter Gatherers plot almost within modern Northern European diversity, with the most isolated Scandinavians (Icelanders) being the closest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this, but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition, so not from Vinca, but rather into Vinca.
    I meaned from Tepcik-Ciftlik into Vinca and then from Vinca into both Kumtepe and Remedello

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I know I've sounded like a broken record about it but I do think this may be some proof of these subsequent gene flows. Remember that paper on the Greek ancient dna which found the biggest genetic change actually occurred during the early-to-Middle Neolithic, although some in the Chalcolithic as well?

    This would have mainly affected the Balkans/Greece, the Adriatic generally, Italy, but I think some of it might have also moved by sea to Spain.

    I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.

    This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)
    I think LBK (EEF) was not influenced by the 2nd wave from Anatolia because the LBK genomes are very similar to the NW Anatolia genomes (Barcin and Mentese)
    The second wave would have been the one coming from Tepcik-Ciftlik-like genomes. This second wave arrived into the Balkans after LBK and carded/impressed ware people had allready left the Balkans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    It's also interesting that the Bonkuklu "forager" samples have more WHG. Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all. So much for all that hysterical drama. The moral of the story is don't bet against the conclusions of this Lab.
    Yes, more and more I think Villabruna came from southern/southwestern Anatolia.

    PS : the Kumtepe 6 , I still haven't found it on the PCA

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    PCA map seems rather strange. It looks as if ancients are pulled closer than usual. Never seen EHGs claster so close to Russians/Finns. As if they are same population. SHG too. Lithuanians appear as having no farmer genetics at all, being in the middle of EHG and SHG.
    I think it has to do with ancient/modern projection bias. The ancients should be "zoomed" (meaning spread out more).

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    Excellent thread, mostly Turkish researchers from Ankara and Istanbul.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Corded Ware and Andronovo overlap and are close to Karsdorf. The closest populations to them are the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Sintashta, Bell Beaker and Eperstadt are not far away. The closest to Bell Beaker, Eperstadt and Sintashta are again the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Even closer perhaps. They can't be unchanged since that time, right? There were movements into the Balkans from Slavic speaking areas, after all, or was that input smaller than we've been assuming, or from a place closer to the Balkans? That, or do you believe in coincidence?
    It is not likely to be coincidence.

    But too bad, not included Romanians, Serbs, Bosniacs and Macedonians, but probably somewhere similar Bulgarians and Croats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this,
    Yes, especially from Vinca.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition.
    Probably. First and second main flow are from Anatolia to Balkans.

    Some supporters of opposing idea in Internet argued that main flows were from Balkans to Anatolia but it is almost incredible, but secondary flows probably existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.

    This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)
    Or vice versa, the part of genetic material could came in steppe across Caucasus.

    Some Internet bloggers especially when there was much less information developed own ideas, unfortunately with new results something was unsustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all.
    It can be possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes! Now it's filling in more.

    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    "Highlights




    • Central Anatolian farmers belonged to the same gene pool as early European farmers



    I told so. There were hints in early papers that the Central Anatolian farmers were almost identical to these Barcin farmer from NW Anatolia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
    Interesting.

    But that was so obvious, since basically all Farmers ANatolian/EEF had Haplogroup I among them. It is not unlikely that allot of the I today in Europe is actually of Farmer ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Kumtepe 6 sample is supposed to be a black inverted triangle filled with green, right? I can't see anything like that on the PCA. There's a black with blue grey, but not black with green inside. If the rose circle is Kumtepe 6, it looks to me as if Kumtepe is slightly southeast or bordering on the main Barcin cluster.

    The Buncuklu "forager" into pre-pottery Neolithic sample is north of both of them. I think what the authors are proposing and what makes sense to me is that as time passed there was genetic flow from slightly more "southern" and then more "eastern" groups. It didn't wait until the Chalcolithic, as I said; it wouldn't have made sense. There was increasing population size and more and more exchange of technology.

    We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this, but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition, so not from Vinca, but rather into Vinca.

    I know I've sounded like a broken record about it but I do think this may be some proof of these subsequent gene flows. Remember that paper on the Greek ancient dna which found the biggest genetic change actually occurred during the early-to-Middle Neolithic, although some in the Chalcolithic as well?

    This would have mainly affected the Balkans/Greece, the Adriatic generally, Italy, but I think some of it might have also moved by sea to Spain.

    I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.
    What I think and what I was proposing allot of times is that the region from Anatolia to the northern parts of the Iranian Plateau were populated by a WHG (Anatolia) and ANE (Iranian Plateau) like people. Until a third population (Basal Eurasian) moved up from the Iranian South coast or Arabia and merged with the other two creating the Anatolian farmers in the West and Iranian Farmers in the East.

    This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)

    It's also interesting that the Bonkuklu "forager" samples have more WHG. Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all. So much for all that hysterical drama. The moral of the story is don't bet against the conclusions of this Lab.
    "too bad" yes, but don't worry they will again somehow find a way to explain all of this the way they like it and their preachers won't be far away to spred their word.

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    About the connection between Kumtepe and Ötzi, well Kurd was the first one who saw this connection to the exclusion of other Farmers and did propose the second wave of Farmers. And this is where his "CHG_EEF" component idea comes from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
    Interesting.
    Yes.

    And it is important that researchers analyze samples in one of largest prehistoric Neolithic settlement in Europe, in village of Vinca, in Serbia.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Fire Haired, do you really think that a difference of 2-3% is important on a PC map?
    Erzya ENA percentage is c. 4-8%. Kostroma Russians' ENA percentage is c. 5% and Tver Russians' ENA percentage is c. 2-4%.
    Erzya WHG extra is c. 2-7% and Russian WHG extra is c. 4-6%.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1448840466
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.be/2015/03...rtions-in.html

    In the admixture analysis of this new paper Mordovians and Russians have a similar amount of ENA.
    The PCA has projection bias. We can't trust anything it shows anyways.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The PCA has projection bias. We can't trust anything it shows anyways.
    If by "projection bias" (according to google this appears to be a term form behavioural psychology?) you mean the PCA is skewed due to disparate sample sizes, there's no reliable method to correct for this afaik. It's disingenuous to say that it cannot be trusted at all.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There's always such terrible projection bias in a PCA that it can't be trusted whenever it doesn't support someone's prior pronouncements, and especially when it doesn't jive with that person's mythos about his "nation's" origins.

    That isn't to say that a PCA is the last word: there is some projection bias, and all genetic variation isn't reflected in it.

    The thing to do is to check the results with those from other tools.
    Last edited by Angela; 06-08-16 at 03:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    But that was so obvious, since basically all Farmers ANatolian/EEF had Haplogroup I among them. It is not unlikely that allot of the I today in Europe is actually of Farmer ancestry.
    Well according to the haplogroup distribution i had similar clues,it hint to me that played some role in expansion of farming for example given the distribution,first or second wave doesn't matter,otherwise can not spread that much in my opinion, but i was reading a lot of different things about it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I think LBK (EEF) was not influenced by the 2nd wave from Anatolia because the LBK genomes are very similar to the NW Anatolia genomes (Barcin and Mentese)
    The second wave would have been the one coming from Tepcik-Ciftlik-like genomes. This second wave arrived into the Balkans after LBK and carded/impressed ware people had allready left the Balkans.
    I think the 2nd wave influenced Vinca, Cucuteni-Tripolye, Hamangia, Boian and Gumelnita cultures.
    So, steppe people were also affected by the second wave.

    I think this may be the earliest arrival of 2nd wave into the Balkans : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude%C8%99ti_culture
    They were herders in Wallachia (lower Danube)

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    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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