The big bubble: Indoeuropean Yamnayans

[Goga]

Keep on going, Goga, don't give up.

Why should I give up? Genetic science is on my side...

People like to forget things that they don't like and want to forget. I'm just repeating what the scientists are saying and what everybody should know before claiming anything.

For you consideration, I'm professionally trained/educated to recognize & counter any propaganda. (it's my (paid) job :innocent: )



To get a criminal you must think like a criminal, to understand a psycho the one need to think like a psycho. To get a racist you must think like a racist and use his 'weapons' against him. This is how we do it..

 

[Goga]

Keep on going, Goga, don't give up.

Can you give me evidence or prove somehow that there were no spoke-wheeled war chariots in the late second stage Yamnaya Horizon or in Iran before 2000 BC. ? If you can't, your meaningless comments are just empty air and forgetful. It is nothing.

What truly matters nowadays about this kind of topics is modern day genetic science. And science is not really on your side. True or false?

 

[berun]

@Angela, the plot just was a irony, taking the picture of the assumed IE charioter hungry for conquests and women...

@Goga, if archaeology is not fitting your wishes it must be wrong or modelled... you hardly will know anything Real so. Otherwise your point is to be taken into account. The first finding is not the first case usualy, and the evolution from a chart pulled by oxen to a chariot of war pulled by horses is very complex and the unique step in between was found in your beloved Kurdistan... but as the equines were controled by ropes attached to the nostrils... such chariots were not effective for war, and the worst is that such chariots would be inutile before their contemporary Sintashta chariots, so by sure in your beloved Kurdistan chariot wars were not invented. You can find out the archaeological data, if you like more thruth than your wishes, of course.

 

[Alan]

and what makes you think Shintasta wasn't IE ?

Who said Sintashta wasn't Indo European? The point is chariots turn up in the Steppes during a later state after the Indo Europeans already split and therefore logically Chariots shouldn't be taken as factor for Indo Europeans altogether.

 

[Goga]

@Angela, the plot just was a irony, taking the picture of the assumed IE charioter hungry for conquests and women...

@Goga, if archaeology is not fitting your wishes it must be wrong or modelled... you hardly will know anything Real so. Otherwise your point is to be taken into account. The first finding is not the first case usualy, and the evolution from a chart pulled by oxen to a chariot of war pulled by horses is very complex and the unique step in between was found in your beloved Kurdistan... but as the equines were controled by ropes attached to the nostrils... such chariots were not effective for war, and the worst is that such chariots would be inutile before their contemporary Sintashta chariots, so by sure in your beloved Kurdistan chariot wars were not invented. You can find out the archaeological data, if you like more thruth than your wishes, of course.

Archeology is saying: Iran -> Maykop -> Yamnaya -> Europe
also, archeolgy is saying : Iran -> SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) -> the Steppes + Northern India


And no, war chariots were probably not invented in my 'beloved' land of the GODS, Kurdistan. Since Kurdistan is mountainous area. Like modern day tanks, war chariots are pretty useless in the Kurdish Mountains / Zagros.

proto-Kurds probably didn't invented war chariots, but most probably the 'guerilla tactics/warfare' suitable for the Kurdish mountains. I'm almost sure about that the modern day 'guerilla tactics/warfare' were born in my 'beloved' Kurdistan.


Maykop predate Sintashta by thousands of years and even predate the Yamnaya Culture and they found:

" The Maykop people lived sedentary lives, and horses formed a very low percentage of their livestock, which mostly consisted of pigs and cattle. Archaeologists have discovered a unique form of bronze cheek-pieces, which consists of a bronze rod with a twisted loop in the middle and a thread through her nodes that connects with bridle, halter strap and headband. Notches and bumps on the edges of the cheek-pieces were, apparently, to fix nose and under-lip belts.^[5]

Some of the earliest wagon wheels in the world are found in Maykop culture area. The two solid wooden wheels from the kurgan of Starokorsunskaya in the Kuban region have been dated to the second half of the fourth millennium.^[6] "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture#cite_note-6

https://books.google.ca/books?id=yglkwD7pKV8C&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false



Can you give me evidence or prove somehow that there were no spoke-wheeled war chariots of the late second stage PIE in Yamnaya Horizon or in Iran before 2000 BC. ? And there are also 'steppes' / 'semi desert' in Iran, not only in Central Asia..

 

[Alan]

This is different from ships. Just look at the map of where the oldest chariots were found. The dates radiate clearly from Russia above the Sea of Aral.

If there's is a clear gradient in dates then it's enough to assume that the point of origin is where it was invented. If there were 4000 years old chariots in Russia, Iran, Greece and Germany and none older than that, it would be impossible to tell where they originated. There would be a missing link even older. But for chariots the gradient is infallible.

Not going to dispute Sintashtas role, but in fact it seems like the earliest chariots are from Mesopotamia 3000 BC. Chariots with spoked wheels however were modified around the Sintashta culture. The point however is that Chariots do not seem to be a PIE invention, but at max an later Indo_Iranian one.

https://www.reference.com/history/invented-chariot-46cf108725582bbd
[url]http://www.ancientmesopotamians.com/mesopotamia-wheels.html
[/URL]

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

@Angela, the plot just was a irony, taking the picture of the assumed IE charioter hungry for conquests and women...

@Goga, if archaeology is not fitting your wishes it must be wrong or modelled... you hardly will know anything Real so. Otherwise your point is to be taken into account. The first finding is not the first case usualy, and the evolution from a chart pulled by oxen to a chariot of war pulled by horses is very complex and the unique step in between was found in your beloved Kurdistan... but as the equines were controled by ropes attached to the nostrils... such chariots were not effective for war, and the worst is that such chariots would be inutile before their contemporary Sintashta chariots, so by sure in your beloved Kurdistan chariot wars were not invented. You can find out the archaeological data, if you like more thruth than your wishes, of course.

The nomads used chariots as homes primarily. There is no real proof that Proto-Indoeuropeans used chariots for warfare. The Romans and Greeks of Classical antiquity didn't, for sure.

Concerning Sintasha I would like to hear the arguments in favor of its IEness. I hope it's something more tangible than some similarities between its funerary practices and some hymns in Vedic Sanskrit.

 

[Alan]

The nomads used chariots as homes primarily. There is no real proof that Proto-Indoeuropeans used chariots for warfare. The Romans and Greeks of Classical antiquity didn't, for sure.

Concerning Sintasha I would like to hear the arguments in favor of its IEness. I hope it's something more tangible than some similarities between its funerary practices and some hymns in Vedic Sanskrit.

to be fair, Sintashta, Srubna, Andronovo, Yaz and to a good part Kura_Araxes do look Indo_Iranian or at least partly ancestral to Indo_Iranians.. Indo_Iranians spred through several related cultures and not bound to one single.



Sintashta looks like a now extinct branch of Indo_Iranians (Dead end)

Indo_Aryans seem to have evolved from Sintashta people moving to BMAC and merging.
Andronovo looks also to be likely a Iranic dead end culture. No one knows where the Scythians fit in but they must have been close to Yaz(since it is an East Iranic culture), possibly just north of it hiding somewhere beside Andronovo.

Iranics look connected to Srubna(Cimmerians) and Andronovo. A fusion of Yaz/Kura Araxes elements seem to have given birth to West Iranics.

Kura Araxes is the only culture that has both Kurgans as well flat graves.

 

[berun]

@Goga, if your beloved Kurdistan is the land of the gods... the infernal ones maybe? Your chauvinism is more pathetic than thought.

The guerilla word is Spanish not Kurdish. You have a clue with that, but such tactics were used many centuries before against organized troops. Other question is that there were not protokurds in your beloved Kurdistan by then but kassites and hurrians... but your chauvinism blurs heavily your mind.

Can you give me evidence or prove somehow that there were no spoke-wheeled war chariots of the late second stage PIE in Yamnaya Horizon or in Iran before 2000 BC. ? And there are also 'steppes' / 'semi desert' in Iran, not only in Central Asia..

It's YOU who must provide the POSITIVE proofs not me the negative proofs, which would be a nonsense.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Not going to dispute Sintashtas role, but in fact it seems like the earliest chariots are from Mesopotamia 3000 BC. Chariots with spoked wheels however were modified around the Sintashta culture. The point however is that Chariots do not seem to be a PIE invention, but at max an later Indo_Iranian one.

https://www.reference.com/history/invented-chariot-46cf108725582bbd
http://www.ancientmesopotamians.com/mesopotamia-wheels.html

Mesopotamia had solid wheel carts pulled by onagers, these are not charriots.
Charriots are light-weight and therefore have spoked wheels. Speed and manouvrability are of the essence. Therefore they were pulled by well-trained horses.

Charriots have never been considered as part of the spread of PIE.
They were part of the Indo-Iranian expansion.

Charriot construction could be copied. The difficult part was to have well-trained horses.

Why did Kikkuli the horse trainer use Indic words? Because for certain terms there were no Mitanni or Hititte words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

A few decades ago, because of archeological discoveries in the area it was tought everything was invented in Mesopotamia : agriculture, metallurgy, the wheel, ..
Now after archeological discoveries in other areas, we know none of this was invented in Mesopotamia.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

to be fair, Sintashta, Srubna, Andronovo, Yaz and to a good part Kura_Araxes do look Indo_Iranian. Indo_Iranians spred through several related cultures and not bound to one single.



Sintashta looks like a now extinct branch of Indo_Iranians (Dead end)

Indo_Aryans seem to have evolved from Sintashta people moving to BMAC and merging.
Andronovo looks also to be likely a Iranic dead end culture. No one knows where the Scythians fit in but they must have been close to Yaz(since it is an East Iranic culture), possibly just north of it hiding somewhere beside Andronovo.

Iranics look connected to Srubna(Cimmerians) and Andronovo. Yaz/Kura Araxes seem to have given birth to West Iranics.

Kura Araxes is the only culture that has both Kurgans as well flat graves.

What make the Cimmerians Iranics? Your post doesn't even have an argument. Please, do not respond if you aren't not willing to use any.

 

[Milan]

What make the Cimmerians Iranics? Your post doesn't even have an argument. Please, do not respond if you aren't not willing to use any.

I will never made Iranics out of the Cimmerians,moreover their true name appear to be "Kimberikon" as in Aristophanes perhaps "Kimberi".I am little interested in their history but we have so little chronology about them.They might had contact or mixed with Iranics but i doubt that's their origin.

The king names in Cimmerian Bosporus tell as very Thracian names but couple Iranic if they are;
The biggest dynasty is named Sparotocids,this is very common Thracian name especially among nobles Spartacus is one of them.
Spartocids

• Spartocus I 438 BC–433 BC
• Satyrus I 433 BC–389 BC
• Seleucus 433 BC–393 BC
• Leucon I 389 BC–349 BC
• Gorgippus 389 BC–349 BC
• Spartacus II 349 BC–344 BC
• Pairisades I 349 BC–311 BC
• Satyrus II 311 BC–310 BC
• Prytanis 310 BC
• Eumelos 310 BC–304 BC
• Spartacus III 304 BC–284 BC
• Pairisades II 284 BC–c. 245 BC
• Spartacus IV c. 245 BC–c. 240 BC
• Leucon II c. 240 BC–c. 220 BC
• Hygiainon c. 220 BC–c. 200 BC
• Spartacus V c. 200 BC–c. 180 BC
• Pairisades III c. 180 BC–c. 150 BC
• Pairisades IV c. 150 BC–c. 125 BC
• Pairisades V c. 125 BC–108 BC

All of this names can be found among the Thracians,there is some Greek names among them. As well other kings with Thracian names like Rhescuporis,Cotys,Rhoemetalces and so on..

I might start a thread about them and their name in particular,cause it was surviving big time among Indo-Europeans but not among Iranics.Not speaking that someone descent from them,but their name was common among other groups too.

 

[Goga]

@Goga, if your beloved Kurdistan is the land of the gods... the infernal ones maybe? Your chauvinism is more pathetic than thought.

The guerilla word is Spanish not Kurdish. You have a clue with that, but such tactics were used many centuries before against organized troops. Other question is that there were not protokurds in your beloved Kurdistan by then but kassites and hurrians... but your chauvinism blurs heavily your mind.



It's YOU who must provide the POSITIVE proofs not me the negative proofs, which would be a nonsense.

You know nothing about history of Kurdistan. Kassites, Gutians (ancestral to the Medes/Cyrtians) were all proto-Kurds. The Kassite's Kings had Iranic names.

Kurdistan IS the land of Gods, the mighty Sumerians wrote about it! The land of ANUNNAKI! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki


guerilla might be a (universal) Spanish word, I don't know. But guerilla warfare tactics were invented in Kurdish mountains. Read what Greeks wrote about race of Kurdistan, and I do mean Greek writers like Strabo, Xenophon e.a.

Kurdish race/people are much OLDER that Spanish people. Ancestors of the Kurds (Kurdish race) made history when Spanish people didn't exist at all, lmao!



Once again if you claim something you must provide absolute evidence that you are right and other possibilities are not possible. I don't claim anything I'm just countering your arguments and showing that your arguments don't hold any ground. It is how science works. Even your 'thesis' doesn't make any sense.

thesis - antithesis - synthesis

 

[Goga]

Why did Kikkuli the horse trainer use Indic words? Because for certain terms there were no Mitanni or Hititte words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

Those intervals were also similar in Avestan


Most of those words are also even the same in the modern Kurdish

aiga-, = one = modern Kurdish: yek
tera-, = three = modern Kurdish: sê
panza-, = five = modern Kurdish: pênc
satta-, = seven = modern Kurdish: heft
nāwa-, = nine = modern Kuridsh: heh


intervals in Kurdish.

1 = yek
2 = du
3 = sê
4 = çar
5 = pênc
6 = şeş
7 = heft
8 = heşt
9 = neh
10 = deh


In Hindi/Urdi & Sindhi etc. it is basically the same..

Hindi/ Urdu

ek

do

ti:n

ca:r

pã:c

chai

sa:t

a:th

nau

das

Sindhi

hiku

bba

ti:

ca:re

pañja

cha

sata

atha

nava

ddaha

http://www.zompist.com/euro.htm

 

[bicicleur 2]

how do you know who the Proto-Kurds were if there is no anciant DNA ?
same for the Medes

oh, I know, you'll tell me you know, and I have to prove otherwise

Kurds were allies for the Ottoman Empire. They did the dirty work on the eastern border. Maybe the origin of guerilla?
Friendship with the Ottomans is certainly over now. Looking for independence now.
Respect for the fight against ISIS.

 

[Angela]

Mesopotamia had solid wheel carts pulled by onagers, these are not charriots.
Charriots are light-weight and therefore have spoked wheels. Speed and manouvrability are of the essence. Therefore they were pulled by well-trained horses.

Charriots have never been considered as part of the spread of PIE.
They were part of the Indo-Iranian expansion.

Charriot construction could be copied. The difficult part was to have well-trained horses.

Why did Kikkuli the horse trainer use Indic words? Because for certain terms there were no Mitanni or Hititte words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

A few decades ago, because of archeological discoveries in the area it was tought everything was invented in Mesopotamia : agriculture, metallurgy, the wheel, ..
Now after archeological discoveries in other areas, we know none of this was invented in Mesopotamia.

That's a comment which is inaccurate, imo. First of all, it wasn't thought that everything was invented in Mesopotamia; it was thought that everything was invented in the Middle East. You know, "Ex oriente lux". It's definitely true for agriculture and metallurgy. The wheel may have been invented in FB, or it may have been invented in the Middle East, or it may have been simultaneously developed in both cases. In my opinion, that's about all that can objectively be determined at this stage.

Second of all, significant developments indeed took place in the vicinity of the Tigris-Euphrates, including some forms of agriculture and metallurgy.

If you doubt any of the above use our search engine. I've provided citations ad nauseam.

As to the rest of the post, I agree. A chariot is indeed a rather light construction, with spoked wheels and barely room for two people. It had to be that way for them to attain the speed which made them apt for war. You can't fight from a lumbering "war cart" with solid wooden wheels. There's also no way on earth that people could live in a chariot.

This whole idea that chariots had anything to do with Corded Ware or other early Indo-European movements into Europe was pushed by internet people peddling a vastly over-simplified and incorrect narrative. The map which Coriolan provided makes it crystal clear.

@Goga,
Neither I nor anyone else has to prove a negative. Sorry, but that's not how it works. The person proposing a theory has to prove it; you haven't proved yours. All you have is your desire that this be the case.

As for me, so far as I can see at present everything points to an origin in Sintashta based on current evidence. If evidence comes to light placing the earliest chariot somewhere else then of course my opinion will change.

 

[Goga]

how do you know who the Proto-Kurds were if there is no anciant DNA ?
same for the Medes

oh, I know, you'll tell me you know, and I have to prove otherwise

Kurds were allies for the Ottoman Empire. They did the dirty work on the eastern border. Maybe the origin of guerilla?
Friendship with the Ottomans is certainly over now. Looking for independence now.
Respect for the fight against ISIS.

We have DNA of the modern Kurds and we have got DNA of the Copper Age, Iron Age etc. people of Kurdistan/Iranian Plateau. The Medes came into existence and lived during the Iron Age. My DNA is 100% identical to the Iron Age people (the Medes) of Kurdistan.


Kurds fought especially against the ancient Greeks & Persians a guerilla warfare.


" A people called the Carduchoi are mentioned in Xenophon's Anabasis. They inhabited the mountains north of the Tigris in 401 BC, living in well-provisioned villages. They were enemies to the king of Persia,^[8] as were the Greek mercenaries with Xenophon, but their response to thousands of armed and desperate strangers was hostile. They had no heavy troops who could face the battle-hardened hoplites, but they used longbows and slings effectively, and for the Greeks the "seven days spent in traversing the country of the Carduchians had been one long continuous battle, which had cost them more suffering than the whole of their troubles at the hands of the king [of Persia] and Tissaphernes put together."^[9]

They have been also mentioned as Gordi by Hecataeus of Miletus c. 520 BC. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduene

 

[berun]

Goga, let me know the Iranic names of the Cassite kings... if you can.

For the pretended gods naned Annunaki... everybody knows they were not...

According to Sitchin, Nibiru (called "the twelfth planet" because, Sitchin claimed, the Sumerians' gods-given conception of the Solar System counted all eight planets, plus Pluto, the Sun and the Moon) was the home of a technologically advanced human-like extraterrestrial race called the Anunnaki in Sumerian myth, who Sitchin states are called the Nephilim in Genesis. He wrote that they evolved after Nibiru entered the solar system, and they first arrived on Earth probably 450,000 years ago, looking for minerals, especially gold, which they found and mined in Africa. Sitchin states that these "gods" were the rank-and-file workers of the colonial expedition to Earth from planet Nibiru.
Sitchin wrote that Enki suggested that to relieve the Anunnaki, who had mutinied over their dissatisfaction with their working conditions, that primitive workers (Homo sapiens) be created by genetic engineering as slaves to replace them in the gold mines by crossing extraterrestrial genes with those of Homo erectus.[6][7] According to Sitchin, ancient inscriptions report that the human civilization in Sumer, Mesopotamia, was set up under the guidance of these "gods", and human kingship was inaugurated to provide intermediaries between mankind and the Anunnaki (creating the "divine right of kings" doctrine). Sitchin believes that fallout from nuclear weapons, used during a war between factions of the extraterrestrials, is the "evil wind" described in the Lament for Ur that destroyed Ur around 2000 BC. Sitchin states the exact year is 2024 BC.[8] Sitchin says that his research coincides with many biblical texts, and that biblical texts come originally from Sumerian writings.

Your chauvinism may get you mad if you are taking pride of fantasies.

 

[Alan]

@Goga, if your beloved Kurdistan is the land of the gods... the infernal ones maybe? Your chauvinism is more pathetic than thought.

The guerilla word is Spanish not Kurdish. You have a clue with that, but such tactics were used many centuries before against organized troops. Other question is that there were not protokurds in your beloved Kurdistan by then but kassites and hurrians... but your chauvinism blurs heavily your mind.



It's YOU who must provide the POSITIVE proofs not me the negative proofs, which would be a nonsense.

Why are you even discussing with him then, by now you should have exactly known how he ticks. I have stopped even reading some of his comments, sometimes I ask myself if he is doing this to embarrass the Kurds. He doesn't seem to understand that those ancient people are not Kurds but that Kurds inherited elements of these ancient people. Alone the Medes were a confederation of several Iranic and Hurrian related tribes.

 

[Alan]

Mesopotamia had solid wheel carts pulled by onagers, these are not charriots.
Charriots are light-weight and therefore have spoked wheels. Speed and manouvrability are of the essence. Therefore they were pulled by well-trained horses.

Charriots have never been considered as part of the spread of PIE.
They were part of the Indo-Iranian expansion.

Charriot construction could be copied. The difficult part was to have well-trained horses.

Why did Kikkuli the horse trainer use Indic words? Because for certain terms there were no Mitanni or Hititte words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

A few decades ago, because of archeological discoveries in the area it was tought everything was invented in Mesopotamia : agriculture, metallurgy, the wheel, ..
Now after archeological discoveries in other areas, we know none of this was invented in Mesopotamia.

As I said I agree that the spoked wheel charriots are an Indo_Iranian thing. I thought people here were suggesting charriots are all PIE because people often used it as a factor for PIE debate.

Also as I once wrote, that the Mitanni were an Indo_Aryan branch is all just a theory. A theory based on the fact that Indo_Aryan went through much less loudshifts and stayed purer to it's root and therefore anything proto Indo_Iranian or early pre_Iranic as consequence should appear closer to Indo_Aryan. Many scientists have taken up this fact this is why there is still a debate wether Mitanni was Indo_Aryan or yet unsplit Indo_Iranian. The fact that Mitanni appear 1500 BC which is exactly the same time period as the Vedas appearance makes me doubt that those Mitanni were Indo_Aryans yet but at most pre-Indo_Aryans.

There are three possibilities for Mitanni.
1. It's an proto Indo_Iranian people who came straight out of Sintashta
2. It's an pre or proto Indo Aryan people who came straight out of BMAC when a Sintashta wave merged with the local BMAC people.
3. It's an now extinct archaic Iranic or Indo_Iranic group who came straight out of the Kura_Araxes culture who had contacts to Srubna culture.

What speaks for the first two theories is that the Mitanni had charriots very akine to those found among Sintashta. What speaks for the third theory is that the Kura-Araxes collapse fits well with the appearance of the Mitanni and allot of things necessary for the Mitanni being already there in the Kura_Araxes culture (Horses, Kurgans, herding etc).

The wheel without a doubt is a Neolithic era contruction, are we going to dispute that? I never heard that Agriculture was invented in Mesopotamia but the fertile crescent which includes Mesopotamia.

When I look through the net the definition of charriot varies from one source to another. Well the painting on the second link I provided with four wheels with a man on it driven by two donkeys looks like charriot or proto charriot to me. I absolutely see no difference of Sintashta charriots beside the two spoked wheel and local Horses instead of Donkeys.

The whole design is the same which makes me extremely doubt that the Sintashta charriots were designed without the influence of the Mesopotamian version. In fact Sintashta charriots look like modified Mesopotamia charriots/wagons.

in comparison Iranic charriots.

It is clear that the one could not have happened in his form without the other.